Why are bus ticket prices not made available online?

[Bletchleyite]

Dutch buses often aren't "im Takt" either. Traffic often makes it impossible.

 

[Smethwickian]

National Express West Midlands have a simple fare structure of £1.90 for up to two fare stages, and £2.20 for three or more. Fare stages in the West Midlands are a lot smaller than what you tend to find elsewhere, though.

You can find those stages in the fare tables - along with the few minor exceptions such as stretches within Staffordshire and Warwickshire - on its website here http://nxbus.co.uk/files/FareCharts2015FinalWM3.pdf - although there were one or two changes recently which haven't been included yet (such as the new 54/154 routes in Staffordshire).

There's also a flat fare of £1 within the Birmingham Middle Ring Road and one or two other odds and ends by way of promotions on specific services.

 

[richw]

You can buy Ride Cornwall tickets on the bus, don't know about Railcards though.

Railcard discount only available when bought from the railway.

What’s your example?

Are you comparing a commercial bus fare with an equivalent rail fare (i.e. not bought in advance, not restricted to a certain service, not heavily subsidised by a PTE)?

Redruth to Truro £7.50 return by bus.

Redruth to Plymouth £6.60 return by train (Off Peak, Railcard discounted fare) full fare is £9.90, but still a lot cheaper per mile than the bus.

 

[northwichcat]

Already being done in Cheshire: http://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/public_transport/bus/cheshire_travelcard.aspx

A lot of development would need to be done to make that comparable to an Oyster card.

For people who aren't aware you have to fill out a form, or phone a number to acquire one and then it's sent to you by post. There's no online application form and you can't acquire one in person anywhere.

You top up when you a board a bus in cash only. The only way of checking your balance is what's printed on a ticket issued on a bus.

Not all operators participate.

Some operators give you a discount and the ones that do are known to reduce the discount level with no prior notice.

It's only for buses.

There's no multi-operator day ticket for the area available.

 

[radamfi]

A lot of development would need to be done to make that comparable to an Oyster card.

If you have to speak to the driver, in my book that's not a smartcard scheme. Surely it hardly saves any time compared with paying in cash?

 

[crehld]

A lot of development would need to be done to make that comparable to an Oyster card.

For people who aren't aware you have to fill out a form, or phone a number to acquire one and then it's sent to you by post. There's no online application form and you can't acquire one in person anywhere.

You top up when you a board a bus in cash only. The only way of checking your balance is what's printed on a ticket issued on a bus.

Not all operators participate.

Some operators give you a discount and the ones that do are known to reduce the discount level with no prior notice.

It's only for buses.

There's no multi-operator day ticket for the area available.

All valid points, but my point was it overcomes the issue of needing the correct change. It also demonstrates they're trying, compared to many other area that can't be bothered!

 

[dgl]

First Dorset seem to advertise most of their fares online, the fact that they have flat fares in the Weymouth/Portland/Dorchester area must help (which includes interchanges and the return can be used all day!)

Also (although a subsided route) paying only £3.30-3.50 for a single from Crewkerne to Taunton seemed excellent value for what is essentially a rural bus service

 

[extendedpaul]

Arriva Medway offer a one hour ticket for £4 which is a simple alternative to interchange tickets. You just have to start your final journey within an hour of buying it and you can change buses as often as you like within the hour.

I've managed A-B, B-C, C-D and D back to A on one including a bit of shopping but that does need a degree of planning, luck and speed.

 

[ag51ruk]

You think that's a stupid fare? How about this one (attached). Fortunately I pay with a PAYG ITSO Cheshire travel card so exact change is never an issue!

The actual price of that ticket is £4.90 - you get a 15% discount paying with a Cheshire travel card on D&G, and they would give change if paying cash
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If you have to speak to the driver, in my book that's not a smartcard scheme. Surely it hardly saves any time compared with paying in cash?

It does - one cash transaction per top up, every other journey is quicker as no need for the driver to count the tender or fiddle about for change. From the passenger's side, no need for cash, valid on multiple operators and a small discount on most journeys
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Derby City Council promote an interesting ticket - Spectrum is a day ticket valid on all of the main operators in the city (essentially Trent, Arriva and Yohrbus), can be bought on the bus or in advance as a preloaded number of days on an ITSO smartcard which are activated the first time it's used each day.

The cost is £5.80 though, higher than the similar Kangaroo ticket in Nottingham which covers a larger area, but would make a cross city return journey using two operators cheaper. I dont know how high the take up is, it gets promoted at the bus station but not much by the operators themselves.

 

[radamfi]

These local authority smartcard schemes are such a missed opportunity. It is a triumph of marketing over substance. They can claim, "wow, we have a smartcard scheme. We are just as good as London." Well, you are not. Topping up on the bus is absolutely barking! How about actually copying what actually works? Of course, I've mentioned the Dutch system where you touch in and touch out.

Some people on here will then think, "I wish he would stop banging on about the Dutch. That's utopia and we live in the hell-hole called the UK, so we can't do it." So then, how do we explain the Mango system from Trent Barton? Also, remember this?

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/latest_news/?id=007371

FirstGroup, the UK’s largest bus and rail operator, today revealed it is to invest £27m in revolutionary new ticketing technology for its 5,000 strong bus fleet in England, outside London.


The company intends to be the first bus operator outside London to offer customers ‘touch in touch out’ contactless payment. The new ticket machines, designed to read contactless debit or credit cards, in addition to ITSO smartcards such as concessionary bus passes, will be introduced to buses from the autumn and will initially allow customers with an ITSO smartcard to touch in. Contactless bank cards will be accepted across England from late 2012.


First’s new ticketing system will act much like London’s Oyster Card; customers will simply ‘touch in’ and ‘touch out’ using their debit or credit card, taking less than a second, and avoiding the need to carry the correct change. The system will also allow FirstGroup to offer a range of tickets including capping the daily fare. But unlike Oyster customers won’t need to carry an additional card or worry about pre-payment or topping up. Customers using the contactless cards will simply see the cost of the fare deducted from their bank or credit card balance.

 

[90019]

Some people on here will then think, "I wish he would stop banging on about the Dutch. It's tediously predictable and getting very boring seeing it in every sodding thread"

Fixed.

 

[northwichcat]

These local authority smartcard schemes are such a missed opportunity. It is a triumph of marketing over substance. They can claim, "wow, we have a smartcard scheme. We are just as good as London." Well, you are not. Topping up on the bus is absolutely barking!

Allowing an option to top-up on a bus isn't barking but having it as the only option is.

A more sensible option for the Cheshire councils would have been to become outer zones of the GM System One and Merseyside Saveaway schemes, so hypothetically for the DaySaver bus & train (Off Peak) you could have:
Greater Manchester (zone A): £6.60 - as present.
Cheshire East (zone B): £5.50
Zones A and B: £8.80

Then you could add parts of Derbyshire and Lancashire as additional zones.

 

[SS4]

You can find those stages in the fare tables - along with the few minor exceptions such as stretches within Staffordshire and Warwickshire - on its website here http://nxbus.co.uk/files/FareCharts2015FinalWM3.pdf - although there were one or two changes recently which haven't been included yet (such as the new 54/154 routes in Staffordshire).

There's also a flat fare of £1 within the Birmingham Middle Ring Road and one or two other odds and ends by way of promotions on specific services.

NXWM are pretty good overall but I find they only really advertise their own product and it's left the reader to figure out that there is an nbus ticket available for 40p more.

Still better than most operators though!

 

[radamfi]

Allowing an option to top-up on a bus isn't barking but having it as the only option is.

One of the objectives of a smartcard scheme IMO should be to remove cash from buses, not only to speed up boarding, but also to reduce the likelihood of the driver being robbed.

A more sensible option for the Cheshire councils would have been to become outer zones of the GM System One and Merseyside Saveaway schemes

With any zonal system, there is inevitably a boundary and so the question is what you do about that. The most obvious mitigation is to make the zonal area as big as possible, and including commuter hinterland is a pretty logical extension. As is well known, Germany has many tariff areas which cover most of the country:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verke...verbünde_und_Tarifverbünde_in_Deutschland.png

so it might appear to be a big problem when travelling from one to another. But a lot of cross-boundary trips can be done with one ticket. For example, if you take the VRR and VRS areas in the NRW state (in the north-west if you look at the map above), the zonal systems for these tariff areas overlap considerably. If your trip is not covered by this, you might still benefit from the NRW-Ticket which covers the entire state.

You can even have zones covering foreign countries, such as this zone map of the Geneva suburban area which has many zones in France:

http://www.tpg.ch/tarifs/tous-les-tarifs

The most ideal situation of course is for a zonal system to cover an entire country, which was the case in the Netherlands before their nationwide smartcard. The Flemish region of Belgium (which has a large degree of self-government) had that until earlier this year, but still has a unified tariff system for the whole region which now works on time rather than zones.

The SPT ZoneCard, covering Glasgow and the former Strathclyde region, is a pretty huge zonal area and is finely-grained, but only covers weekly or longer tickets. The east of Scotland "One-Ticket" covers a large area and does include day tickets, but has five big zones.

 

[transmanche]

Of course there is one area of the UK which used to have a Dutch-style zonal system and tickets which allowed for a transfer between modes. Tyne & Wear.

Single tickets were simple: you paid for 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 (or more) zones. Short distance tickets were simple too: A, B, C or D tickets corresponded to 1, 2, 3 or 4 stages - and they worked across zonal boundaries too. Transfare tickets were available for 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 (or more) zones too - and 20 years ago generally cost about 10p more than the equivalent single-mode ticket.

Even the zone numbering system, which whilst looking odd at first, had a logic to it: adjacent zone numbers were usually 1 or 10 different. Inter-modal season tickets were available as shown on the map: 3 zones in a ring were cheaper than 3 zones in a row.

But they decided to 'simplify' the system. Now there's one set of zones for Metro, a different set for Transfares, and a third set for inter-modal season tickets. Then Go Noth Eaat have their own 'Buzzfare' zones and route-specific season tickets (which they advertise on the front of buses).

It's a complete mess. And to used to be so simple...

 

[Statto]

Merseyside have a zonal system for passes however bus fares are stage fare system, the zonal system used to be like that Tyne & Wear system but Merseytravel got rid of most of the zones to make it simpler, like Liverpool used to have 12 zones, now only has 3 zones.

I don't mind zonal system for passes, but hate it for single tickets, which you end up paying more for a short journey because you cross a zonal boundary, than a long journey that stays in the zonal boundary.

 

[transmanche]

I don't mind zonal system for passes, but hate it for single tickets, which you end up paying more for a short journey because you cross a zonal boundary, than a long journey that stays in the zonal boundary.

But, as described earlier, that wasn't a problem in the old T&W system. Even if your journey crossed a zone boundary, you'd need to be travelling 6 stages before being charged a 2-zone fare.

 

[northwichcat]

One of the objectives of a smartcard scheme IMO should be to remove cash from buses, not only to speed up boarding, but also to reduce the likelihood of the driver being robbed.

I'm not keen on the idea of moving to the system some European cities use where you can't pay on board and have to buy tickets from the nearest station, underground station, travel centre or newsagent. That might work in large cities but wouldn't work on some rural bus routes - you need to make a bus journey in order to get to a place which sell tickets.

With any zonal system, there is inevitably a boundary and so the question is what you do about that.

Indeed. The reason I suggested a better idea would be for Cheshire to be integrated in to the existing TfGM/Merseytravel schemes is because that's easier to do in the short term. Getting a uniform scheme covering all areas in the North of England would take years to implement.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not keen on the idea of moving to the system some European cities use where you can't pay on board and have to buy tickets from the nearest station, underground station, travel centre or newsagent. That might work in large cities but wouldn't work on some rural bus routes - you need to make a bus journey in order to get to a place which sell tickets.

I'm not advocating totally banning paying the driver and I don't think that is necessary. However, incentives for buying off-bus should be generous so that few people buy on the bus. In my earlier examples of the Netherlands and Belgium, I don't think there is a bus which doesn't accept cash. In the Flemish region of Belgium, the cash fare from the driver is 3.00 euros whereas it is less than 2.00 euros if you pay by text or use a "Lijnkaart" where you get 10 tickets for 14 euros. In the Netherlands the policy varies by area, but you typically have to get a paper ticket or disposable smartcard which usually costs considerably more than the regular smartcard fare.

In a number of European cities, each bus stop has a ticket machine, so in these cases there is no need to pay the driver, or there may be a ticket machine on the tram. This is usually done where you have free boarding.
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Indeed. The reason I suggested a better idea would be for Cheshire to be integrated in to the existing TfGM/Merseytravel schemes is because that's easier to do in the short term. Getting a uniform scheme covering all areas in the North of England would take years to implement.

An advantage of "pay by distance" smartcards over zones is that you don't have to worry about crossing boundaries. You just pay for what you use. If I dare to use the Dutch example again, some places (notably Arriva areas) have even abandoned day and season tickets. As an enthusiast who likes to travel a lot, that's not my bag, but most people doing a regular commute or return day trip don't need them. They have, however, introduced a loyalty facility for heavy users where you get a discount off all fares for a fixed monthly fee. Basically like a railcard.

Even in London you can see this trend even though they have flat fares for buses and zonal fares for everything else. A lot of people don't bother with Travelcards nowadays whereas 20 years ago they would be have been standard. Travelcard pricing has gone up more than the price of single fares. There is now no boarding time difference between pay-as-you-go and Travelcards so that incentive for making Travelcards cheap has gone.

 

[Hophead]

I'm not advocating totally banning paying the driver and I don't think that is necessary. However, incentives for buying off-bus should be generous so that few people buy on the bus. In my earlier examples of the Netherlands and Belgium, I don't think there is a bus which doesn't accept cash. In the Flemish region of Belgium, the cash fare from the driver is 3.00 euros whereas it is less than 2.00 euros if you pay by text or use a "Lijnkaart" where you get 10 tickets for 14 euros. In the Netherlands the policy varies by area, but you typically have to get a paper ticket or disposable smartcard which usually costs considerably more than the regular smartcard fare.

Now, this is the bit I just don't get. The last time we had this debate, I pointed out that Brighton & Hove see cash transactions on just 15% of journeys (and would very much like to see that reduced), and incentivise passengers with heavy discounts on Key cards and mobile phone tickets, whereas First Bristol offered no discount at all for buying off-bus. I don't know if First's attitude has changed in the last few months.

The advantages to pre-payment and off-bus payment are just so obvious for a commercial operator that I don't understand why so many British companies don't bother. Watching the entertaining Channel 5 series about EYMS, I was astonished to see a driver desperate to take a huge amount of cash on a Monday morning (which he did achieve).

As far as I know, no bus operator outside London accepts contactless debit cards, which seems to me to be a huge oversight. Most buses these days have smart card readers - they are compatible, aren't they? It would seem almost criminal if ITSO readers could not deal with contactless debit cards. These would be so useful in reducing the 'empty float' problems that drivers face, especially when the company has not bothered to advertise their fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I know, no bus operator outside London accepts contactless debit cards, which seems to me to be a huge oversight. Most buses these days have smart card readers - they are compatible, aren't they? It would seem almost criminal if ITSO readers could not deal with contactless debit cards. These would be so useful in reducing the 'empty float' problems that drivers face, especially when the company has not bothered to advertise their fares.

Stagecoach Lancaster are/were running a trial on the 555, rather than touch in and out it was to purchase a conventional ticket. Makes sense to me.
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But, as described earlier, that wasn't a problem in the old T&W system. Even if your journey crossed a zone boundary, you'd need to be travelling 6 stages before being charged a 2-zone fare.

And the German system usually offers a Kurzstreckenkarte to avoid that problem - usually something like "up to 3 stops[1] or one railway station, no changes permitted".

[1] bearing in mind that bus stops in Germany are typically about 1km apart.
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I'm not advocating totally banning paying the driver and I don't think that is necessary. However, incentives for buying off-bus should be generous so that few people buy on the bus.

That's how the German system works. One thing that helps, that is rare in the UK (Merseytravel have one, being one of the more forward-looking and Germanic PTEs given their proud "S-Bahn" ) is the CC-Karte, an off-peak-only season ticket at a very heavy discount. This kind of thing means almost everyone travels using some kind of pass, both saving money in the need for ticket office/machine provision and making marginal journeys very attractive.

An advantage of "pay by distance" smartcards over zones is that you don't have to worry about crossing boundaries. You just pay for what you use. If I dare to use the Dutch example again, some places (notably Arriva areas) have even abandoned day and season tickets. As an enthusiast who likes to travel a lot, that's not my bag

In the Netherlands season tickets were never really the tradition, though they existed - people tended to prefer the very long Strippenkaarten and paying per journey, albeit with a heavy discount. I think contactless and Oyster have taken London there. I'd like to see a non-London bus company try it as well - perhaps Arriva should try a PAYG type scheme on their mobile app? You could have a balance from which to purchase 1-hour tickets or similar.

Travelcard pricing has gone up more than the price of single fares. There is now no boarding time difference between pay-as-you-go and Travelcards so that incentive for making Travelcards cheap has gone.

Oyster, and the fact that nobody paid by cash even when you could, has sped bus boarding in London up to German levels. This must save TfL a fortune by reducing PVRs, and by making the service more attractive, so it's amazing that regional operators still haven't cottoned onto it and prefer people to make 30 second to one minute financial transactions each and every time they board.

 

[northwichcat]

An advantage of "pay by distance" smartcards over zones is that you don't have to worry about crossing boundaries.

Do you pay by actual distance between your starting and ending point, or the distance the bus covers between your starting and ending point?

For instance on this bus route: http://www.ghacoaches.co.uk/timetables/27-27a-27b/ would travelling on the 27A 08:25 Macclesfield-Knutsford service on a weekday cost more than the 27 17:00 Macclesfield-Knutsford service on a Saturday? If so I can see it being unpopular on some routes that the slower indirect journeys cost more than the faster direct journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you pay by actual distance between your starting and ending point, or the distance the bus covers between your starting and ending point?

The latter, which is why I'm not a fan and prefer a zonal approach.

Yes, different routes cost different amounts, you can also have the outward costing different from the return based on stop locations.

 

[northwichcat]

The latter, which is why I'm not a fan and prefer a zonal approach.

Yes, different routes cost different amounts, you can also have the outward costing different from the return based on stop locations.

Both methods have disadvantages.

Potentially with a zonal approach you could have 'city of Manchester' as a zone and it would be cheaper to make a journey from Manchester to Manchester Airport than the shorter journey between Wilmslow and Manchester Airport.

Whereas charging by the distance the bus covers has a disadvantage if the next bus doesn't follow the shortest route and the frequency isn't greater than hourly.

However, I think the former approach is less likely to cause new irregularities, as we already have irregularities similar to that due to day tickets having boundaries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Potentially with a zonal approach you could have 'city of Manchester' as a zone

Too big, I think, certainly compared with the Dutch model. Zones would be more of the size of the Merseytravel ones - indeed their areas/zones model is rather German in its approach, just like a lot of the rest of their operation, certainly compared with other PTEs.

 

[radamfi]

Stagecoach Lancaster are/were running a trial on the 555, rather than touch in and out it was to purchase a conventional ticket. Makes sense to me.

This still involves a fair amount of interaction between passenger and driver. I don't see that being much of an improvement over cash payment. First appeared to have chickened out of their touch-in touch-out idea even though they spent a small fortune equipping their nationwide fleet with compliant ticket machines. Unlike most UK operators, where you place the card on top of the machine, their smartcard readers are vertically polarised, which would make sense for an Oyster(rail)/Dutch style touch in, touch out system. But the machines are badly designed as passengers often have difficultly placing their card on the designated small area.

First may have decided that mobile apps are more the way forward now, and some areas offer "carnets" of single tickets on the app. This is of course this is no good if your effective single fare is below what you would have paid through cash or day tickets, but could be of use to some people who might get the bus only one way and get a lift back, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arriva's M-ticket system offers day tickets and passes. What we need is one offering Oyster style functionality - single tickets but with capping. Would be really easy to do.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Arriva's M-ticket system offers day tickets and passes. What we need is one offering Oyster style functionality - single tickets but with capping. Would be really easy to do.

West Yorkshire M-cards might potentially have this feature in the future. Currently you just have your weekly/monthly/longer MetroCard loaded onto the card, and 'touch-in' on buses (a true Oyster type system would require touching out too, something that wouldn't be easy as practically all buses in the area are single-door). Even smaller operators were quick to adopt machines that read the cards, though. With the exception of Tates Travel and one or two other "Cowboys" in the North Kirklees area.

 

[northwichcat]

Too big, I think, certainly compared with the Dutch model. Zones would be more of the size of the Merseytravel ones.

The Merseytravel one is practically one zone per council borough. The exceptions being the rail only zones covering the Merseyrail sections which run in to Cheshire and Lancashire. Zone A is probably around the same size, both in terms of population and area as the City of Manchester area I suggested.

 

[Deerfold]

West Yorkshire M-cards might potentially have this feature in the future. Currently you just have your weekly/monthly/longer MetroCard loaded onto the card, and 'touch-in' on buses (a true Oyster type system would require touching out too, something that wouldn't be easy as practically all buses in the area are single-door). Even smaller operators were quick to adopt machines that read the cards, though. With the exception of Tates Travel and one or two other "Cowboys" in the North Kirklees area.

Oddly the company I've had most issues with is First (despite only travelling with them occasionally). I've had drivers asking me not to touch on the pad and show them the card instead and other occasions where the ticket machine crashed when I touched on it (which may explain the behaviour of the other drivers).