Why are French trains so poor?

[Groningen]

There will be still some nighttrains in France and 30 million Euro will be invested in new material. According to a Twitter user (so unconfirmed) is the nighttrain returning to Cerbère from Paris. There will also be driverless trains in future (2023).

 

[Bungle965]

There will be still some nighttrains in France and 30 million Euro will be invested in new material. According to a Twitter user (so unconfirmed) is the nighttrain returning to Cerbère from Paris. There will also be driverless trains in future (2023).

I think driverless trains by 2023 I somewhat laughable.
Have you got a link to the tweet please?
Sam

 

[Groningen]

This is the link: https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-targets-autonomous-trains-in-five-years.html

They are also gonna do it in the Netherlands on the Betuweline and between Groningen and Zuidhorn. The link is in Dutch, but you get the picture and is already 6 months old.
Source: https://www.dvhn.nl/groningen/Het-i...ar-trein-zonder-machinist-video-22979900.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think driverless trains by 2023 I somewhat laughable.

The DLR has had driverless trains since the 1990s. On fully segregated LGVs, why would it not work?

 

[CMS]

I think driverless trains are plausible in France, particularly on branch lines, of which there are many. Plus, France already has the Lille, Toulouse and Rennes Metro systems which are driverless and are generally at high levels of automation. Lyon has automation on almost all modes of travel there to various degrees.

There would be quite a revolt to wide scale implementation on the SNCF core network though. DOO is an anomaly in most of France outside of Paris and regions currently trialling DOO such as Nouvelle Aquitaine are experiencing industrial action as a result. 'Driverless' would face a humongous backlash, especially amongst unions and staff who already reject the upcoming rail reforms.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bear in mind that it is very common for (rural) buses to have a 1EUR flat fare as well. There is only a handful of lines in Occitanie that have this - all very rural - but there are 1EUR Advance tickets (in theory) right across the Region.

I just did a trip coming up from Spain via Cerbère and using TER Occitanie to reach Montpellier and then later on to Marseille on an Intercite.
No €1 fares were available at all, and I thought €32 for a single fare on a TER EMU stopper to Montpellier was a bit steep.
Frequency was poor as well (on a Saturday). If I had missed the 3-minute Renfe/SNCF connection at Cerbère I would have faced a 3-hour wait for the next TER.
There was an unexpected police passport check at Cerbère to negotiate as well.

Another curious feature of the route was the number of overhead masts that were propped up by extra supports - usually by rods attached to all four corners of the mast at waist height.
There must have been hundreds of them in total.
This suggests that either the foundations or the steelwork are in trouble, either way it must be a maintenance headache for SNCF Réseau.

 

[leytongabriel]

Long Distance buses have been giving ICE/IC routes a serious run for their money/kick up the backside over the last few years.

Yes - it's a bugbear of mine that the OUI-SNCF website sees itself as a travel agency rather than promoting train travel as a first objective. So even if you specify you are looking for train tickets up pop cheaper bus alternatives in between the train times. Shooting yourself in the foot?

 

[leytongabriel]

I would say the main difference is politics - the SNCF is seen in France as an integral part of the 'service public'. This changes the approach to delivering the railway and public perception of this is more important than many other European countries, particularly the UK. You'll only have to look at the redevelopment plans of Paris Nord. It's desperately needed in terms of capacity, ensuring the station is ready for Brexit-necessary queuing/arrival procedures and it seems to aim for a hint of St Pancras, but there is outrage in the media and amongst rail unions/locals as it's seen to 'privatise' the station, given Auchan's involvement. I cannot remember a similar UK station redevelopment being so contentious.

A few examples also demonstrate this balance of power - the numerous TGV stations in the middle of nowhere so that politicians can say they are 'on the TGV network', the solitary TGV return trip to/from Le Havre despite the fact it takes longer than changing from a Gare de Lyon TGV, crossing Paris on the métro and taking a regional train from St Lazare and its poor reliability just so the region receives TGV traffic despite the operational impact it has, the disparity of TER services on the border of regions as each region has the power to prioritse its own interests etc.

I agree with the comments that high-speed long-distance seems to be the priority (even if that's not actually true) and the centralised nature of France means that Paris is a focus - Bordeaux to Lyon is quickest via Massy for example. But I wouldn't say that clockface timetables and the need to have regular intervals and stopping patterns to 'draw in passengers' is necessary - France just does not work like that, on some lines morning peak, lunchtime, 4pm-7pm and a late night train will do. On Sundays, most non-leisure businesses are closed and supermarkets even in big cities only open for 3 hours or so unlike many countries where Sunday has become just as busy as Saturday (the big exception to this is TGV where there is a definite peak on Sunday evenings). Look at the recent 3 months of striking, another network would have ground to a halt, SNCF put on what it could and the public got a decent service considering events. Largely, the SNCF is just 'very French' and because that may not fit the perceived success of the very different UK, NL or Swiss networks, it should not be written off as poor overall.

Whilst the French network is miles ahead in operational and technical advancements - their trains are generally excellent machines, LGVs are well engineered etc, I would say the overall passenger experience is poorer than its neighbouring networks. Stations in France are very often run down and have incoherent signage, the numbering of platforms follows the operational numbering and not something which would make sense to customers - Strasbourg, Lille Europe, Rouen come to mind and step-free access is often a clear after-thought. Timetables are very hard to get/read unless you are a regular TER user and know how to negotiate them, journey planners shouldn't replace timetables as they have for TGV. Brand names are not clear (Paris suburbs - trains on RER C referred to as RER on signage, Transilien Ligne C on onboard posters and station literature, 'train' in announcements?) and what is TGV inOUI? Surely just newer TGVs and a few rip-off extras that all TGVs will eventually have? And cleanliness and train presentation is generally poor. 1st class is also not worth shouting about despite cheaper fares.

SNCF of course is changing and a significant part of its portfolio does come from private companies it runs in France and abroad, such as Keolis companies - perhaps they ought to remind the French public of this more often. It will be interesting to see how the opening of the rail market in France turns out, personally I think it's a good thing and if it seems to have grown the market like the coach industry has done in France and similar rail examples in Italy and Germany, it's worth a try. Overall I would reiterate that whilst the passenger experience is relatively poor, the overall state of affairs isn't - it's just very French... spend a few months in France and you'll get it, it does work!

Part of this French train culture seems to be having very long, overlong perhaps in our eyes, trains even on quite secondary lines like Paris-Granville. They haven't really gone for the more frequent but shorter trains idea.

 

[MarcVD]

Partially to be linked with the fact that lots of french railway lines have a very limited and totally outdated signalling system, thus severely limiting the lines capacity. Not to 3 trains a day of course, but certainly not able to support a clockface schedule.

 

[duesselmartin]

Many German branches still have mechanical signalling and can do an hourly timetable. I can only assume that die to rationalisation, block sections are too long?

 

[MarcVD]

Belgium started running a clockface timetable in the 50ies when most signalling was still mechanical too. It's not an issue if block sections are short enough, and passing loops frequent enough on single tracks lines. That's not the case on a lot of lines in France.

 

[theageofthetra]

Socialist governments. Next question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many German branches still have mechanical signalling and can do an hourly timetable. I can only assume that die to rationalisation, block sections are too long?

The UK also has many mechanically signalled branches, and the norm in the UK remains hourly clockface-ish except on very rural lines.

I suspect it's "can't be bothered".