Why are rail fares so expensive when compared to other countries?

[TSR :D]

Why does this happen?

Can't they reduce fares to low amount so more people will use it, therefore, more revenue for rail company?

 

[Zoe]

Why does this happen?

Can't they reduce fares to low amount so more people will use it, therefore, more revenue for rail company?

It's only the walk-up fares that are some of the most expensive. Some of the advance fares are actually cheaper than other countries. Since around 2006 advance fares have been widely adopted by the TOCs and have made the cost of intercity travel cheaper, this has unfortunately been at the expensive of affordable walk-up travel but opinion is quite divided on this.

 

[Minilad]

Why does this happen?

Can't they reduce fares to low amount so more people will use it, therefore, more revenue for rail company?

Cue moans about more overcrowding

 

[WestCoast]

Britain has the cheapest and the most expensive rail tickets in Europe.

There are some dirt cheap advances, alongside some very overpriced walk-on fares.

Manchester-London:

Advance Single from £11.50 (so £23 return).
Anytime Return - £279.00

 

[Greeby]

Well, has a lot to do with the lack of day returns. As the fares system is based on a 20 year old idea of service frequency and journey time.

I've got some old BR Intercity timetables from 1988 that were recovered from the now-closed Milton Keynes Central travel centre, where they had slipped down the back of the drawers.
Milton Keynes - Manchester for example was only 3 or 4 services per day, each taking over 2 hours. So just having Open Returns made sense back then. But now the service is hourly and takes 1 hour 38mins. Yet there is still no day return. same goes for a lot of places that Virgin can reach in two hours or less.

 

[Zoe]

But now the service is hourly and takes 1 hour 38mins. Yet there is still no day return. same goes for a lot of places that Virgin can reach in two hours or less.

Is there any need for Day Returns though these days with the range of cheap advance fares for this type of journey that are available? If you have day returns that are cheaper then you could end up with overcrowding and no way to limit the number of people travelling on a train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why does this happen?

Can't they reduce fares to low amount so more people will use it, therefore, more revenue for rail company?

In a system which is mostly subsidised, more passengers equals more subsidy.
The government has a policy of suppressing demand by keeping fares high, to keep the subsidy down. Saves buying all those new trains.

On top of that, Network Rail access charges are very high (deliberate policy when BR was privatised to maximise return for the Treasury).

The TOCs can only tinker round the edges.

"Cheap" railways on the continent are not always cheap, they just have a different fares structure. We penalise walk-on and peak passengers but favour advance, off-peak and season tickets. They tend to have a mileage based system with heavy discounts for regular use, but don't do off-peak discounts very well.

 

[stut]

I think WestCoast says it all - we have the widest discrepancy between the cheapest restricted and walk-up tickets. However, if you start looking at full fares for long-distance travel in France and Germany, they're not always as cheap as you might assume! A little table of comparisons over similar distances:

London - Nottingham	£10	£70
Paris - Lille		£16	£51
Berlin - Braunschweig	£20	£47
Madrid - Valladolid	£18	£30
Rome - Naples		£19	£47

Where other countries really get it much cheaper, though, is for commuter travel, which is much more heavily controlled by regional transit authorities. National railcards also provide far greater discounts.

To give you an example, my annual season ticket to London - rail only, no Tube - is close to £3500. For this price, you can have a ticket covering unlimited travel across Germany for a year.

 

[Greeby]

Is there any need for Day Returns though these days with the range of cheap advance fares for this type of journey that are available? If you have day returns that are cheaper then you could end up with overcrowding and no way to limit the number of people travelling on a train.

Given the amount of people who buy advances online, then miss the booked train, claim they didn't know what they bought and have to buy a new ticket, I'd say yes. Anyway, if we applied the basic formula for London-bound tickets, which is 7DS = SDR X 3 or thereabouts, then it would still cost a pretty penny, but would be way down from three figures.

 

[142094]

You need to understand that the price of tickets is all to do with demand management - higher ticket price in the peak due to the amount of people travelling, and lower prices in the off peak when seats are more readily available, which is why Advances are offered. There is also the fact that the Governemnt and DfT seem to want to increase the burden on the rail user to pay for infrastructure investment and general running costs, with lower subsidies from the taxpayer (although I guess the majority of those who use trains indeed either pay tax or have at one time).

So if we cut ticket prices in half tomorrow we'd have a lot more demand, but a lot more overcrowding. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[WestCoast]

You need to understand that the price of tickets is all to do with demand management - higher ticket price in the peak due to the amount of people travelling, and lower prices in the off peak when seats are more readily available, which is why Advances are offered. There is also the fact that the Governemnt and DfT seem to want to increase the burden on the rail user to pay for infrastructure investment and general running costs, with lower subsidies from the taxpayer (although I guess the majority of those who use trains indeed either pay tax or have at one time).

Yes, the UK system follows one school of thought in terms of fares, which has major advantages for some travellers. However, it's not always this way, for example in the Benelux countries, there aren't any advance fares and barring a few weekend type offers, there aren't any off-peak fares either! Single, day return, weekend return are generally the only fares and in the Netherlands, people are encouraged to use a touch in and out smartcard to pay for these fares.

The distances are generally shorter (although still up to 3+ hours on some services) and peak services have up to 18 coach double deckers serving key routes. So, the demand is catered for, although this requires serious government investment in public transport.

So, essentially, yes the UK does to some extent have a demand managed system, and due to the nature of the network it's arguably the best system for medium and long-distance journeys. However, I do feel that Advance fares on shorter distance journeys aren't appropriate for rail as these are very much about a "turn-up-and-go" style of service.

 

[Zoe]

You need to understand that the price of tickets is all to do with demand management - higher ticket price in the peak due to the amount of people travelling, and lower prices in the off peak when seats are more readily available, which is why Advances are offered.

This is all very well but doesn't work well if advance fares are offered in the peak as many of the seats will be taken leaving the people that paid full for no choice but to stand.

 

[Donny Dave]

Also, the UK has possibly the most intensively used railway network in the world. It all has to be paid for somehow ....

Well, has a lot to do with the lack of day returns. As the fares system is based on a 20 year old idea of service frequency and journey time.

Quite. From Scunthorpe, there isn't a lot of day returns available. Going to Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Doncaster, Sheffield, Chesterfield and Stockport, I can get an Off Peak Day Return. However, to Retford, and Leeds, it has to be an Anytime Day return. Other than that, I need to buy a period return, despite the fact that I can to a return trip to quite a large part of the country in a day comfortably ....

 

[WestCoast]

Also, the UK has possibly the most intensively used railway network in the world. It all has to be paid for somehow ....

This Wiki article (with appropriate sources) is quite interesting about rail usage.

Germany and the UK top the tables for the most amount of rail passengers in Europe. 1.95 billion in Germany and 1.33 billion in the UK - reflecting the population difference.

However, Switzerland has the highest passenger kilometers per each member of the population in the world - which IMO is an acid test for rail usage.

 

[northwichcat]

Well, has a lot to do with the lack of day returns. As the fares system is based on a 20 year old idea of service frequency and journey time.

And on shorter routes the lack of a return ticket allowing you to return the next day.

Knutsford to Manchester is £5.30 single and £6.10 off peak day return. So if I catch the 10:49 Knutsford to Manchester and the 15:17 Manchester to Knutsford the same day I pay £6.10. However, if I catch the 14:49 Knutsford to Manchester and then travel back on the 10:17 Manchester to Knutsford the next day I pay £10.60. In both cases I make a return journey on off peak trains only yet but in the latter case I pay 175% of what I pay in the former case.

 

[yorkie]

Is there any need for Day Returns though these days with the range of cheap advance fares for this type of journey that are available?

What mode of transport do you suggest for someone who decides to do a day out at short notice, or who wants flexibility on what time to return depending on when they finish their shopping/meal/day out? Would you rather the rail industry didn't compete in that market and people were forced to drive?

 

[Zoe]

What mode of transport do you suggest for someone who decides to do a day out at short notice, or who wants flexibility on what time to return depending on when they finish their shopping/meal/day out? Would you rather the rail industry didn't compete in that market and people were forced to drive?

No but whenever I have made the case for cheaper walk-up fares I've often been met with the response that I should stop complaining and book in advance. When FGW scrapped the Super Saver in 2006 for example the response was that the ticket was no longer needed as even cheaper advance fares were now available. Personally I much prefer the system in the 1990s where you could turn up at the station and get the next intercity train without paying through the roof but I'm not sure many would want to give up the cheap advance fares in return for cheap walk-up fares.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Relying purely on experience, from myself and from my friends and colleagues, it appears that there is a passenger demand for both of those products (Advances and Day Returns).

Advances offer wornderful bargains for those who can plan months in advance, but (you'll probably know that my most frequent journey is Newcastle-London) sometimes if travelling at short notice, then Advances may have become very expensive (as the quota at each tier is exhausted) but the limited flexibility of a Day Return might be quite appropriate.

Here's the numbers for return travel in Standard Class: (First thing this morning, I nearly had to go to London this Wed, though the time was slightly flexible)
Headline Advance Tickets £15 each way = £30 (sold out 12 weeks in advance. If they ever were available on useful services.)
Advances available at 48hrs notice £255 (busy services) to £154 (quiet services)
OffPeak Return (with some flexibility in times) £198
Super OffPeak Return (very little flexibility and useless for my business day) £111

I hope this illustrates that each has their place in the offerings. That's not to say I'm an apologist for East Coast's pricing nor its policies, but it might help in inspiring thoughts of how the present framework can be used, by TOCs and passengers alike.

 

[martinsh]

Britain has the cheapest and the most expensive rail tickets in Europe.

There are some dirt cheap advances, alongside some very overpriced walk-on fares.

Manchester-London:

Advance Single from £11.50 (so £23 return).
Anytime Return - £279.00

I'm sorry but the £11.50 single for approx 175 miles is NOT the cheapest rate in Europe.

In Latvia Riga - Daugavpils (approx same distance) is 4.70LVL (about £6) - comfortably cheaper. Mind you it does take a good 4 hours !

 

[WestCoast]

I'm sorry but the £11.50 single for approx 175 miles is NOT the cheapest rate in Europe.

In Latvia Riga - Daugavpils (approx same distance) is 4.70LVL (about £6) - comfortably cheaper. Mind you it does take a good 4 hours !

I wasn't saying it was definitively the cheapest! Perhaps I should have clarified with Western European states....

What's the average wage in Latvia compared to the UK? I mention this as I don't normally find comparisons with Eastern European countries useful due to the living costs discrepancies.

 

[142094]

This is all very well but doesn't work well if advance fares are offered in the peak as many of the seats will be taken leaving the people that paid full for no choice but to stand.

Problem is, when buying a ticket from X to Y in the morning peak, there is often nothing stopping someone from travelling back from Y to X 10 minutes after they arrive at Y, a couple of hours later or even in the evening peak. Big uncertainty, so even if you were to stop selling advances for evening peak trains, it would be very hard to judge which ones to pick.

However, Switzerland has the highest passenger kilometers per each member of the population in the world - which IMO is an acid test for rail usage.

Passenger km isn't necessarily a good figure for comparison - I would have thought that there will be less people making shorter journeys compared to the UK, and more making longer ones. Better comparison would be number of journeys and km travelled per services provided.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I think the murky world of restrictions and validity codes needs sorting out first. Especially when it results in 'Off-Peak' tickets that can be used on any train.

However, I'm reluctant to see anything change, because I know change would not benefit passengers.

Also, travelling short should be permitted on any ticket.

 

[globetrotter]

How I see it, having travelled on railways in many countries around the world:
►The UK suffers from a complete lack of infrastructure capacity in many areas, for example passenger numbers into London terminals are expected to increase way beyond the capacity. This is a direct result of decades of under investment in railways and poor ad hoc decisions taken by politicians along the way. Because of this, today's railways are very inefficient and some traffic cannot be encouraged, leaving people to use their cars.
►The Anglo Saxon mentality is to offer "bargain pricing" ... "sale 70% off". This mentality extends everywhere in the UK, like supermarket pricing of "2 for 1" or "3 for 2". It is from this mentality and the "low cost" airline pricing that Advance fares have taken root.
►The TOCs have profit targets. To meet them, Advance fares give the illusion that train travel is cheap. We had a recent thread where it was suggested that Megatrain prices offers one ticket on some routes at the cheapest fare. Fares overall are very high as shareholders expect increasing profits and dividends from a system that, let's face, cannot grow very much. The track access pricing system discourages TOCs from operating longer trains as that means higher fees = less profit.
►So what has happened as a result of all these factors (including high prices to discourage peak hour travel because of lack of infrastructure) is that instead of just turning up at the station one is supposed to check on the internet for Advance fares for specific trains. Huge amounts of time can be wasted trying to find the most economical way to make a specific journey as we see from postings on railforums every day.
►In a perfect system, people would travel whenever they wanted and train scheduling and capacity would meet whatever the demand was, within reason. I commend the Swiss for having the best integrated transport system, well thought out, simple to understand and most Swiss using trains buy an annual pass giving half price travel.

It seems that in today’s world in the UK:
►Buying tickets at the station is being discouraged
►Most travel must either be planned or one must have a close understanding of the arcane rules governing each discounted ticket and the operators and routings allowed.
►There is a cosy relationship between the TOCs and the DfT whereby it is intimated that to encourage “investment” TOCs can increase prices above inflation and certainly beyond present wage increases (if any). No one is looking at strategic issues.
►The public does not know the details of TOC contracts, but one can be sure that if a TOC has a line from Megacity A to City B then if there was a proposal to build a second route (put out for tender to the winning 'qualified' bidder – another can of worms) there would be some wording buried deep in the contract to cover loss of revenue if a second line were built. This might make it financially impossible to build new lines to increase capacity.

This is only scratching the surface but in other words, it’s all a complete mess and can only get worse. I wish I could find something positive to say.

 

[OwlMan]

►The public does not know the details of TOC contracts, but one can be sure that if a TOC has a line from Megacity A to City B then if there was a proposal to build a second route (put out for tender to the winning 'qualified' bidder – another can of worms) there would be some wording buried deep in the contract to cover loss of revenue if a second line were built. This might make it financially impossible to build new lines to increase capacity.

See http://www.dft.gov.uk/topics/rail-passenger-franchises/public-register/ for details of the franchise agreements

Peter

 

[gordonthemoron]

I know best the ticketing in UK & Germany, it's not always greener in Germany, here are the pluses and minuses:

UK
+ Cheaper advance fares, frequently available until day before travel
+ Day returns
+ Cheap day rovers
- Expensive walk up fares, no price cap
- Expensive season tickets with no price cap
- No discount cards available for individual adults
- poor rewards system for regular travellers
- poor websites
- poor TVMs

Germany
+ Cheaper walk up fares with price cap
+ discounted tickets available bahncard up until time of travel
+ bahncard100 allows unlimited travel for a year at €3800, can be used for commuting
+ discount cards available for individual adults
+ good reward system, much better than EC for instance
+ excellent website
+ excellent TVMs
- Rover tickets can be more expensive, but cover a much wider area
- no returns at all, return fare is double single
- fragmentation of rail system, sometimes means DB tickets not valid on private operators (this doesn't happen that often fortunately)
- very limited availability of cheapish advance fares
- advance fares are much more expensive than UK

 

[kylemore]

No but whenever I have made the case for cheaper walk-up fares I've often been met with the response that I should stop complaining and book in advance. When FGW scrapped the Super Saver in 2006 for example the response was that the ticket was no longer needed as even cheaper advance fares were now available. Personally I much prefer the system in the 1990s where you could turn up at the station and get the next intercity train without paying through the roof but I'm not sure many would want to give up the cheap advance fares in return for cheap walk-up fares.

Exactly, theres a theme here that those who criticise our system are a bit naive. You're right, in the 80s/early 90s you could turn up at the station and even for inter-city journeys pay a walk-on fare without having to have a heart attack on the spot and cough up your grandkids' inheritences!
I would just say one thing, when you decide to make a journey at short notice you don't pay 3 or 4 times more for your petrol than if you'd paid for it in advance 2 weeks before!

 

[blacknight]

Maybe its because we are having to pay for all these taxis & overnight stays in hotels that passengers are requesting.
Its not railway companies that pay for this in the end, its the passengers who pay for it themselves by means of the high pricing of rail travel onway to bank.

 

[dzug2]

A couple of random observations:

Most off peak returns in the UK are not THAT badly priced.

Whilst the Swiss have an admirable system, it ain't that cheap without a half price card and the finer points of their T&C as expressed in stilted English on their website are not that understandable

 

[Deerfold]

Whilst the Swiss have an admirable system, it ain't that cheap without a half price card and the finer points of their T&C as expressed in stilted English on their website are not that understandable

As opposed to the fluent Swiss German on National Rail?

 

[sheff1]

Whilst the Swiss have an admirable system, it ain't that cheap without a half price card and the finer points of their T&C as expressed in stilted English on their website are not that understandable

Unlike, of course, the ATOC Routeing Guide (which forms part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage here) which is fully understandable, not just in English, but in a wide variety of languages including Swiss German, French and Italian .