Why are so many people ashamed of riding the bus or walking?

[Meerkat]

I believe Google uses open data feeds from the transport operators where available, or online timetable data otherwise. Plus algorithms that learn from the real experience of tracking millions of smartphone users.

Clearly you have not used the app. I use it regularly and find it surprisingly accurate. Not perfect, but neither are NRE and the other rail planners.

If you choose not to try it, the loss is yours.

You are missing the point - you know it exists, and have experience that it is reliable.
I didn’t even know it existed and would be wary of using something not advertised as official.
Whereas everyone knows National Rail is official.
It needs a well advertised “National Bus” app that Joe Bloggs wondering how to get home can have confidence in. Or DfT to mandate and advertise a branded open data feed that Google etc can use to show authenticity.
Remember we are trying to get bus sceptics to give it a go.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Speeding up journey times is one of the best things you can do for passenger convenience (and - bonus - it saves operators money too if they can use it to reduce the PVR). The main problem with buses, I'd argue, is that they are way too slow, and the main reason for that is the need to discuss an individual financial transaction every time one boards. It's very evident if you go to London that if you remove that things move much, much quicker - a typical London bus only stops at each stop for about 10-20 seconds, not well over a minute like in the provinces.

If your routes often drop off and pick up at the same stops along the way, add a set of centre doors and that's another 10 seconds off per stop, too.

I'd agree, but that wasn't really my point.

My point was that Contactless is more for passenger convenience as it removes the need to carry cash and more specifically the correct amount of cash, rather than it being to speed up journey times as others were suggesting.

 

[scotrail158713]

My point was that Contactless is more for passenger convenience as it removes the need to carry cash and more specifically the correct amount of cash, rather than it being to speed up journey times as others were suggesting.

I completely agree. Anyone I’ve spoken to doesn’t mind getting a paper ticket - they are more inconvenienced by having to carry £2.30* in change for their bus, and then another £2.30* for the bus home.
*any value can be put here

 

[Jordan Adam]

I completely agree. Anyone I’ve spoken to doesn’t mind getting a paper ticket - they are more inconvenienced by having to carry £2.30* in change for their bus, and then another £2.30* for the bus home.
*any value can be put here

The paper ticket is just proof of purchase. If you didn't get a ticket and the inspector came on, how are you meant to prove to them you paid the correct fare.

 

[175mph]

There's the quote attributed to Thatcher, though it's unclear if she actually said it, about anyone over 25 finding using a bus having to consider themselves a failure in life.

My own view is that buses tend to be seen as transport for going to school, or for those old enough to have bus passes. Young adults in particular don't want to identify with either of those groups. Getting a car and a license is seen as a rite of passage into adulthood so those who start to drive will tend to do so whenever possible for emotional as well as practical reasons, and thus get out of the habit of using public transport. That seems to be changing now with the younger generation less car-dependent - at least in area that have a reasonable bus service!

I'm over 25 and find myself to be a a failure in life, especially since my mum bought my younger brother a car and paid for his driving lessons but never did for me.

 

[radamfi]

You are missing the point - you know it exists, and have experience that it is reliable.
I didn’t even know it existed and would be wary of using something not advertised as official.
Whereas everyone knows National Rail is official.
It needs a well advertised “National Bus” app that Joe Bloggs wondering how to get home can have confidence in. Or DfT to mandate and advertise a branded open data feed that Google etc can use to show authenticity.
Remember we are trying to get bus sceptics to give it a go.

The nearest thing to an "official" service is Traveline, but most people prefer apps from operators or third party developers.

 

[radamfi]

I completely agree. Anyone I’ve spoken to doesn’t mind getting a paper ticket - they are more inconvenienced by having to carry £2.30* in change for their bus, and then another £2.30* for the bus home.
*any value can be put here

The individual passenger doesn't care whether they get a ticket or not, but passengers do care about the bus being slow.

 

[scotrail158713]

The paper ticket is just proof of purchase. If you didn't get a ticket and the inspector came on, how are you meant to prove to them you paid the correct fare.

Yeah. Forgive me for my ignorance but how does it work in London if you’ve paid by contactless?

 

[radamfi]

Yeah. Forgive me for my ignorance but how does it work in London if you’ve paid by contactless?

When the inspector gets on, he gets the list of card numbers from the driver (or at least last 4 digits).

 

[Jordan Adam]

When the inspector gets on, he gets the list of card numbers from the driver (or at least last 4 digits).

Never thought of that if i'm honest. I guess then it could work provided you only charged one fare for all single journeys. It would be quite time consuming for the inspector however.

 

[Non Multi]

I've come across more people who say they wouldn't be caught anywhere waiting for the bus or walking.

I don't believe the fears of social suicide are realistic when it comes to riding the bus or walking.

Thoughts?

My reply to the O.P's original question:

Because 'keeping up with the Joneses' involves leasing a new 1.6 Mercedes A-class with AMG-ish trim, and sitting alone bored in the traffic jam at rush hour listening to Radio 2 MOR pop (other MOR pop music stations are available). Leasing a new, premium German car says to your neighbours and passers by, "I'm doing rather well for myself". This seems to be a big thing in certain parts of the UK.

Travelling on a Citaro bus with a prestige German badge on the front usually does not impress random passers by!

 

[radamfi]

Never thought of that if i'm honest. I guess then it could work provided you only charged one fare for all single journeys. It would be quite time consuming for the inspector however.

London has flat fare, so only has touch in, but I don't see why a similar inspection technique couldn't work for a touch in touch out system. There aren't usually that many contactless cards to inspect as the majority of people still use Oyster cards.

 

[Jordan Adam]

London has flat fare, so only has touch in, but I don't see why a similar inspection technique couldn't work for a touch in touch out system. There aren't usually that many contactless cards to inspect as the majority of people still use Oyster cards.

That's the issue i'd see, the number of people using contactless in Aberdeen is very high now. Probably nearing 50% at a guess. So going down a busy bus inspecting each persons card would take quite some time when you compare to simply glancing for a few seconds at a ticket.

 

[Greybeard33]

One operator (I can't remember which one) put a video of buying a paper ticket using contactless on YouTube a while ago and I think I timed it at about 9 seconds per transaction. So probably only marginally quicker than paying the driver in exact fare on a change giving bus and maybe even slower than exact fare buses.

With cash transactions, the big delays occur when the passenger spends ages rummaging for change in purse/pockets, or drops coins on the floor and grovels for them, or demands change from a £10 note!

 

[Greybeard33]

The nearest thing to an "official" service is Traveline, but most people prefer apps from operators or third party developers.

There are also local "official" multi-mode, multi-operator apps/websites, such as My TfGM for Greater Manchester. But users mostly judge apps by reputation and by trying them, not by whether or not they are branded as "official".

 

[Bletchleyite]

The paper ticket is just proof of purchase. If you didn't get a ticket and the inspector came on, how are you meant to prove to them you paid the correct fare.

The same way you do in London - the ticket machine knows what card numbers it's seen, and they either print off a partly-masked list or download it to the inspection terminal. (I think it was the former but is now the latter).

Of course this occasionally falls down, as it did for me when the muppet driving the 68 out of Euston didn't set up his ticket machine before opening the doors, resulting in me touching in for the previous journey, which meant when inspectors boarded they attempted to PF me. They did however believe my explanation in the end (having gone down and spoken to the driver) and issued me a ticket for a free journey. (Not an actual free journey, because I did get charged for the touch-in on the bus's previous one).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never thought of that if i'm honest. I guess then it could work provided you only charged one fare for all single journeys. It would be quite time consuming for the inspector however.

They now download them to their terminal, you touch the card against that and it comes up whether the card has been touched in.

It doesn't have to be flat fare, you can also do it with a touch out, and if you fail to touch out you are charged the maximum fare, i.e. from where you boarded to the end of the journey, so you have an incentive to do so (and if you are doing the full route you don't need to as you'll be charged correctly anyway).

The only thing they need to check is if the card has been touched in on that journey. Everything else is worked out by the computer.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think I know of anyone who is "ashamed" to take a bus or walk.

I take the fastest/cheapest mode of transport for most of my local journeys, which is to cycle. I would not feel "ashamed" to walk at all, but I generally do not do so, because it is slow.

For most of my journeys, the bus is either too expensive, too slow, or both!

I hardly know anyone who takes a bus in York; it's geared up for visitors to York to be able to use the Park & Rides. But the non-P&R fares are expensive and the service away from the P&R routes isn't always great. I have access to one of the most frequent services in York but it would be bonkers for me to use it, given that cycling is both cheaper and quicker.

The last bus I got was to get to a meeting in Kenilworth; I only got the bus because the train was cancelled. The single bus fare cost more than the return train fare. It is difficult to find out the fares, and when you do find out the fare it's often ludicrously expensive. These are the real reasons why most people avoid buses, not because anyone is "ashamed".

 

[radamfi]

It is interesting to note that contactless has not taken off to the same extent for bus payment in other European countries, even in places where bank cards have almost made cash redundant. In the Netherlands, where most buses no longer accept cash, contactless (and even full Chip & PIN) is accepted but not encouraged. It is much cheaper to use the nationwide smartcard. In Copenhagen, where it is almost impossible to find a shop that doesn't accept cards, the buses still only accept cash (at a premium) and not cards and they prefer you to use the nationwide smartcard or mobile app. Sweden is probably the country closest to abolishing cash, yet buses in Stockholm don't accept cash or cards.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think I know of anyone who is "ashamed" to take a bus or walk.

I take the fastest/cheapest mode of transport for most of my local journeys, which is to cycle. I would not feel "ashamed" to walk at all, but I generally do not do so, because it is slow.

For most of my journeys, the bus is either too expensive, too slow, or both!

I don't know if "ashamed" is the word but I know people who just won't use buses. That doesn't mean they're bad people - it just doesn't work for them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if "ashamed" is the word but I know people who just won't use buses. That doesn't mean they're bad people - it just doesn't work for them.

I don't use them that often, mainly because cycling is not far off the journey time, is cheaper and is better for me.

But that's not a great issue - cycling is not to be discouraged, whereas car driving is.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't use them that often, mainly because cycling is not far off the journey time, is cheaper and is better for me.

But that's not a great issue - cycling is not to be discouraged, whereas car driving is.

Let's be honest. It's horses for courses so if you work in CMK and...

• You live in New Bradwell - cycling is definitely doable
• You live in Buckingham - getting the bus should be what's promoted and that should be made easier and quicker
• You live in Banbury - well, you're just not going to get a bus to Brackley and then another one to CMK. You'll drive.

It's the people who are in the first two categories and drive that should be encouraged. However, let's be realistic why they do it... They have a car, it's already paid for and the cost for using it more is minimal. Until politicians alter the time and cost differentials to help buses, I really am concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You live in Buckingham - getting the bus should be what's promoted and that should be made easier and quicker

Given that this has an X5 (a very high quality vehicle indeed) every half hour, I'm not overly sure how much better it could be made? This is perhaps an example of needing to identify other reasons why buses aren't used that don't have to do with the bus service itself.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Given that this has an X5 (a very high quality vehicle indeed) every half hour, I'm not overly sure how much better it could be made? This is perhaps an example of needing to identify other reasons why buses aren't used that don't have to do with the bus service itself.

There are undoubtedly a range of reasons why buses aren't the preferred options for the good people of Buckingham. They will point to the fares, that it only runs every 30 mins, that they have a car anyway so that they can drive it into CMK with its plentiful parking spaces at a minimal price, that the buses finish early of an evening, that the evening service is hourly.... that's before you get the (incorrect) perception that buses are late and full of odd folk.

 

[cactustwirly]

Because buses are slow, late, expensive and uncomfortable.
For most journeys walking is far more preferable.
The car is much more attractive, since its way more comfortable, you can travel when you want, and is cheaper than the bus (probably)

Also driving is fun, especially if you have a fast country road with lots of tight corners (sorry I'm a bit of a boy racer driver )

 

[geoffk]

With cash transactions, the big delays occur when the passenger spends ages rummaging for change in purse/pockets, or drops coins on the floor and grovels for them, or demands change from a £10 note!

I use the bus quite a lot (I have an ENCTS pass!) and used to work in the industry 40+ years ago. I find the biggest turn-off is slow boarding times, even more than traffic delays. Although many more passengers now board already "ticketed", there are always some, usually at off-peak times, who need to pay and haven't got their purse out or want to change a £10 or £20 note. The absence of this in London makes a big difference. Buses need more priority on the roads and this is the responsibility of the highway authority, but many councillors are reluctant to alienate the motorist; they need their votes and need them to spend their money in the town. Out-of-town development has had a detrimental effect on buses as these are built round the car and are difficult to serve by public transport, apart from the very biggest sites like Meadowhall and the Trafford Centre.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Given that this has an X5 (a very high quality vehicle indeed) every half hour, I'm not overly sure how much better it could be made? This is perhaps an example of needing to identify other reasons why buses aren't used that don't have to do with the bus service itself.

Having some sort of multi-operator ticket, which would effectively increase the service to 3 buses per hour thanks to the X60, would help too.

 

[Ianno87]

Given that this has an X5 (a very high quality vehicle indeed) every half hour, I'm not overly sure how much better it could be made? This is perhaps an example of needing to identify other reasons why buses aren't used that don't have to do with the bus service itself.

It only has one or two stops in Buckingham? I know it's not a big place but not everyone will live near a stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It only has one or two stops in Buckingham? I know it's not a big place but not everyone will live near a stop.

Of course adding more would make it slower.

 

[geoffk]

Having some sort of multi-operator ticket, which would effectively increase the service to 3 buses per hour thanks to the X60, would help too.

Unfortunately this is made difficult by competition law, which takes priority over the stated desire of bus users for better integration.