Why are so many stations non-compliant with Penalty Fare signage?

[AlterEgo]

We often find that posters have, or may have, a defence against a Penalty Fare because the train company has neglected to provide the relevant signage in accordance with the legislation.

Indeed, many stations have signage which is either

a) completely absent,
b) non-standard and hence doesn't contain the relevant information to be compliant,
c) not displayed at key entrances,
d) out of date since the Penalty Fare rise

Why do so many train companies struggle with this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They seem to struggle with signage generally, not just PF signage.

Why don't all stations have a sign pointing to where the single TVM is hidden at each entrance? And a clear sign stating when you don't have to use it (e.g. it's broken or you can't reach it due to a disability)?
Why don't all trains have a sign saying what to do when reservations aren't displayed?

I think it's just lazy assumption that everyone is an expert user alongside poor property management so they don't know what signs are where.

 

[island]

Why are they non-compliant? Because it's cheaper than being compliant, and they get away with it.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

There's also the issue when ticket machines are really hard to find at a small but penalty fared station. A perfect example is Evesham - when I last went there I saw penalty fare signage on the London bound platform and a ticket office on the Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford bound platform. However, I could not find any ticket machine at all (which resorted to me buying my ticket on the GWR app) only to then find when I got back home that the ticket machine is located at the entrance on the Worcester bound platform, but it was positioned in such a way that one could easily walk past it.

To be even more relevant to this thread, I also didn't notice penalty fare signage on the Worcester bound platform either

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that another reason why I had to resort buying on the GWR app was because the ticket office was closed.

 

[Sonic1234]

Because I'd imagine technical appeals are such a minority it barely registers. There was a London council who was sending out bus lane fines but the printer wasn't set up correctly so it missed out part of the legally required wording - guaranteed success if you could be bothered appealing and going to the tribunal yet it took them years to fix the paper feed. Obviously enough people paid up and so few appealed it wasn't worth fixing.

Although it seems from the stories on here that the TOCs prefer to threaten court and extract a settlement, bypassing the penalty fare process.

 

[AdamWW]

There's also the issue when ticket machines are really hard to find at a small but penalty fared station.

Yes I had that somewhere...I forget where now. No sign of a ticket machine. No posters telling you where it was. I eventually found it tucked away under the footbridge steps where you really had to either know it was there or go hunting for it.

Legally of course I would have been in the wrong if I'd failed to find it. But I think it would be unfair.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Yes I had that somewhere...I forget where now. No sign of a ticket machine. No posters telling you where it was. I eventually found it tucked away under the footbridge steps where you really had to either know it was there or go hunting for it.

Legally of course I would have been in the wrong if I'd failed to find it. But I think it would be unfair.

Agreed. Everybody should pay for their ticket, absolutely, and doing before you board is the most efficient way of doing so. However if you are going to enforce this, always put clear signage as to where the ticket office or TVM is so people can avoid making the mistake of boarding without a valid ticket!

 

[Essan]

There's also the issue when ticket machines are really hard to find at a small but penalty fared station. A perfect example is Evesham - when I last went there I saw penalty fare signage on the London bound platform and a ticket office on the Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford bound platform. However, I could not find any ticket machine at all (which resorted to me buying my ticket on the GWR app) only to then find when I got back home that the ticket machine is located at the entrance on the Worcester bound platform, but it was positioned in such a way that one could easily walk past it.

To be even more relevant to this thread, I also didn't notice penalty fare signage on the Worcester bound platform either

Added to which, access between the platforms is only via a footbridge - not suitable for some elderly or disabled people, or those with pushchairs etc .... (for those who don't know the station, there's a separate entrance, via a ramp, for access to the London bound platform - but it's a quarter of a mile walk, via a road bridge, to the ticket office/ticket machine if you're unable to use the station footbridge). However, I hope such people would normally be okay to purchase a ticket onboard. In my experience, GWR staff on this line are still okay with issuing tickets on the train.

I can't recall seeing any notices recently. But there are occasional annoucements over the station tannoy (which I can hear from my back garden)

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Added to which, access between the platforms is only via a footbridge - not suitable for some elderly or disabled people, or those with pushchairs etc .... (for those who don't know the station, there's a separate entrance, via a ramp, for access to the London bound platform - but it's a quarter of a mile walk, via a road bridge, to the ticket office/ticket machine if you're unable to use the station footbridge). However, I hope such people would normally be okay to purchase a ticket onboard. In my experience, GWR staff on this line are still okay with issuing tickets on the train.

Certainly good points to make, and I do agree with you on the final bit. The ticket inspector on the train I got on was kind and happily sold a ticket to some passengers who boarded at Evesham

 

[AdamWW]

In my experience, GWR staff on this line are still okay with issuing tickets on the train.

But just because guards are happy to sell tickets doesn't mean someone won't end up in serious trouble if an RPI gets to them first or for some reason they can't get a ticket on the train.

Added to which, access between the platforms is only via a footbridge - not suitable for some elderly or disabled people, or those with pushchairs etc .... (for those who don't know the station, there's a separate entrance, via a ramp, for access to the London bound platform - but it's a quarter of a mile walk, via a road bridge, to the ticket office/ticket machine if you're unable to use the station footbridge).

I can quite imagine a TOC insisting that someone should have made a half mile round trip to buy a ticket before boarding though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can quite imagine a TOC insisting that someone should have made a half mile round trip to buy a ticket before boarding though.

Of course what Northern want is for people to use their phone, and to get a smartphone if they don't have one. They can't insist on that, but they can make things awkward.

On the other hand never assume conspiracy...

 

[eastwestdivide]

There's also the issue when ticket machines are really hard to find...

Case in point: see the attached photo. Meadowhall, showing machines in a dark corner of the waiting room, and at a passing glance looking for all the world like some advertising screens. They need a big prominent sign saying Tickets (or else stop using the main screen for adverts and have them display "Buy your tickets here" instead. Not just here either.

 

[AdamWW]

Case in point: see the attached photo. Meadowhall, showing machines in a dark corner of the waiting room, and at a passing glance looking for all the world like some advertising screens. They need a big prominent sign saying Tickets (or else stop using the main screen for adverts and have them display "Buy your tickets here" instead. Not just here either.
View attachment 133353

Interesting. I hope there is a big sign saying "Tickets" pointing into the waiting room.

Some stations have a nice poster giving details about the station and the locations of ticket offices/machines. Maybe that should be a requirement.

 

[WesternLancer]

Of course what Northern want is for people to use their phone, and to get a smartphone if they don't have one. They can't insist on that, but they can make things awkward.

On the other hand never assume conspiracy...

Yes, and in the case with the person on WM trains who got a PF yesterday s/he was buying their ticket (and not intending to evade) a minute or 2 after boarding on their phone having got on the train - so no doubt had a smart phone to do this. It's increasingly common for people to do this judging by cases on the forum, without realising that they have made themselves liable to PFs or worse by doping so, as they get lumped in with the pay when challenged people or other deliberate fare evaders.

But do have a method of payment in the form of a smart phone they fully intended to use - just used it too late.

 

[sheff1]

We often find that posters have, or may have, a defence against a Penalty Fare because the train company has neglected to provide the relevant signage in accordance with the legislation.

......

Why do so many train companies struggle with this?

Because complying with the law is something they consider they don't need to bother with.

 

[furlong]

The piece that is missing is for the regulator to stop pretending this isn't happening and everything is rosy and instead to step in whenever this gets discovered and ensure the train companies affected pay back ALL the Penalty Fares they weren't entitled to collect, plus interest and compensation. If the regulator began doing its job properly, the signage (and other) problems (like selling tickets on board without warnings) would be fixed in an instant and there'd be fewer people getting on trains ticketless unaware that they were doing wrong. Where does Penalty Fare income end up today? Who regulates Penalty Fares today? Hmmm. But the policy goal is to avoid needing to issue Penalty Fares because their deterrent effect makes everyone buy their ticket. IMHO The continued inconsistent application of the scheme directly undermines this, exactly as the SRA feared.

 

[MCSHF007]

I entered M&S here in Sheffield on Tuesday to buy a pair of Jeans. Although they were probably there I ddn't notice or seek out any notices that advised 'Shoplifters will be prosecuted'. It still never crossed my mind not to "settle my indebtness" with M&S before I walked out with the selected jeans though.

Oddly enough I also didn't need to read any 'Store Detectives operate in this store' notices which may or may not have been posted by Tesco to appreciate and understand that I needed to pay approx £35 for the grocery items purchased on Monday.

It's all pretty easy really if you just don't cheat/defraud/steal.

 

[tomuk]

Oddly enough I also didn't need to read any 'Store Detectives operate in this store' notices which may or may not have been posted by Tesco to appreciate and understand that I needed to pay approx £35 for the grocery items purchased on Monday.

Interestingly I assume it isn't just my local Tesco Extra that actually has such signs warning of plain clothed store detectives operating in the store attached to the shelving?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Although they were probably there I ddn't notice or seek out any notices that advised 'Shoplifters will be prosecuted'. It still never crossed my mind not to "settle my indebtness" with M&S before I walked out with the selected jeans though.

No but I bet you used and followed the huge signs saying “cash desk this way” and “pay here”, which is rather the point of this thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No but I bet you used and followed the huge signs saying “cash desk this way” and “pay here”, which is rather the point of this thread.

And if there had been a period of 40 odd years during which it had been acceptable to pay just outside the exit doors of the shop which had only recently changed, people could be forgiven for thinking you still could unless there was clear signage otherwise.

There might actually be a decent shop analogy here if those automatic billing shops as being tested by Amazon and Tesco do end up rolling out and becoming the norm - in that case, signs saying you have to pay at the till or face prosecution might become rather important. The reason the shop analogy falls down here is that the approach to paying in a shop has been the same since self service shops became a thing well over 50 years ago.

The situation is more like if we imagine prepayment became required at petrol stations, but rather than you needing to do that before the pump was enabled, you'd need to do it before drawing fuel, and if you didn't you would be fined or prosecuted.

 

[Western Sunset]

Quite an interesting thought about paying for fuel. I currently obtain the service/goods (ie the fuel) before I pay for them at the shop/kiosk, but as the Marston Mafia notes above, it's becoming much more frequent that one has to "pay" first by inserting your card into the pump. I can see he day when it totally changes to paying for the fuel before filling up.

On the railways, and I keep saying this, there has to be a CONSISTENT approach, both within a TOC and between TOCs (and indeed, by individual staff). Will Great British Railways unify the approach, I wonder? The concept of "Pay Trains" was drummed into us in the 1970s - take your seat and pay the guard. I bet many punters still think this is valid...

 

[PeterY]

The biggest faff I have with machines TVM's (Hemel Hempstead) is the writing is so small. Without my reading glasses, I really struggle. I doubt that'd be a good excuse though, to avoid a Penalty fare.

 

[krus_aragon]

Interestingly I assume it isn't just my local Tesco Extra that actually has such signs warning of plain clothed store detectives operating in the store attached to the shelving?

I've never seen any detectives attached to the shelving: I doubt they'd be effective at their job if they were.

 

[tomuk]

Quite an interesting thought about paying for fuel. I currently obtain the service/goods (ie the fuel) before I pay for them at the shop/kiosk, but as the Marston Mafia notes above, it's becoming much more frequent that one has to "pay" first by inserting your card into the pump. I can see he day when it totally changes to paying for the fuel before filling up.

In many places in the US you go in the store and pay for the fuel first, or at least notify your intent, before the pump is released.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In many places in the US you go in the store and pay for the fuel first, or at least notify your intent, before the pump is released.

But in the railway analogy the pump would be open, and if you didn't go in the kiosk first you'd have somebody walk over and take your details for prosecution, or charge you an additional 50 quid.

Pay at pump is more like contactless payment on the Tube where you have to present payment before taking the service, and you're charged the correct amount once finished taking it.

Quite an interesting thought about paying for fuel. I currently obtain the service/goods (ie the fuel) before I pay for them at the shop/kiosk, but as the Marston Mafia notes above, it's becoming much more frequent that one has to "pay" first by inserting your card into the pump. I can see he day when it totally changes to paying for the fuel before filling up.

On the railways, and I keep saying this, there has to be a CONSISTENT approach, both within a TOC and between TOCs (and indeed, by individual staff). Will Great British Railways unify the approach, I wonder? The concept of "Pay Trains" was drummed into us in the 1970s - take your seat and pay the guard. I bet many punters still think this is valid...

Greater Anglia still uses the Paytrain brand on regional services.

 

[tomuk]

But in the railway analogy the pump would be open, and if you didn't go in the kiosk first you'd have somebody walk over and take your details for prosecution, or charge you an additional 50 quid.

The analogy is more like the pump can be either left unlocked or locked depending on what garage and what time you stop for fuel, there may also depending on time and location facilities to pay for the fuel before or after dispensing and in either case there may also be a friendly or unfriendly attendant hanging about who may let you pay at the advertised discounted rate or may alternately charge you extra or just take your details and post you a ridicuosly expensive invoice after the fact.

In summary a completely unfathomable mess.

 

[Kite159]

Agreed, they should scrap penalty fares. Anybody caught not buying before they board without a valid reason can plead their case in front of a judge. Afterall if you don't have any sort of penalty then why bother buying before you board?

Far far too many people think of only paying if they get challenged when travelling between two barriered stations, or think buying a cheap ticket on their phone to bypass the barriers at a destination (Five Ways for Birmingham New Street etc) is perfectly fine.

The sort who will make a beeline for the front unit on Northern when it's a pair of gangwayless units knowing they stand less chance of getting checked, and hey it's a free ride. The sort who walk past an open ticket office (with no queue), walk past the TVMs etc

 

[bob007]

At Slaithwaite they’ve taken down the posters which were up a while ago. This is of naturally confusing some passengers.

What is going on?

 

[30907]

At Slaithwaite they’ve taken down the posters which were up a while ago. This is of naturally confusing some passengers.

What is going on?

Are there (still) yellow PF notices at the entrance to the platform? If so, those are the legally required ones.

It may be, judging from this thread, that someone has complained that the posters are inaccurate in some way.

 

[bob007]

Are there (still) yellow PF notices at the entrance to the platform? If so, those are the legally required ones.

No, they’ve been removed. They’re still enforcing the PF though (I know of one person who got a PF a few weeks ago but successfully challenged it when they took pictures showing the lack of PF posters)