Why are the two dates, May and December, chosen for timetable changes?

[Howardh]

Why are the two dates, May and December, chosen for timetable changes? I find the December one puzzling, as it's two weeks from the holidays, with alterations then no doubt, then back to full working in January?

I would have thought the better times for changes would be immediately after Easter ot the firstMay bank holiday, and after the October "half-term" thus splitting the year into two distinct seasons?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are the two dates, May and December, chosen for timetable changes? I find the December one puzzling, as it's two weeks from the holidays, with alterations then no doubt, then back to full working in January?

I would have thought the better times for changes would be immediately after Easter ot the firstMay bank holiday, and after the October "half-term" thus splitting the year into two distinct seasons?

It was to fall in line with mainland Europe. I agree it makes very little sense - the old summer/winter split with summer between May and September-October was more practical. Falling in line with mainland Europe is not necessary for the UK, because the one train service that does connect the two - Eurostar - doesn't follow it anyway!

 

[berneyarms]

Why are the two dates, May and December, chosen for timetable changes? I find the December one puzzling, as it's two weeks from the holidays, with alterations then no doubt, then back to full working in January?

I would have thought the better times for changes would be immediately after Easter ot the firstMay bank holiday, and after the October "half-term" thus splitting the year into two distinct seasons?

The second Saturday in December is an agreed common timetable change date for railways across Europe.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It is a ludicrous system. If you assume a situation whereby all we had to do was get Eurostar services in the system for the year-round and then the seasonal ones (marked up Q if needed), we could quite rightly move to a situation where we did switch to a Summer timetable at Easter and back again to "Winter" at the end of September. That way, our "Summer" trains such as stuff to Paignton, or Skegness, or wherever else would all just run during a short period of 5 months.

 

[Howardh]

It was to fall in line with mainland Europe. I agree it makes very little sense - the old summer/winter split with summer between May and September-October was more practical. Falling in line with mainland Europe is not necessary for the UK, because the one train service that does connect the two - Eurostar - doesn't follow it anyway!

The second Saturday in December is an agreed common timetable change date for railways across Europe.

Thanks, does seem an odd date for t/t shanges!

 

[jfollows]

Why are the two dates, May and December, chosen for timetable changes? I find the December one puzzling, as it's two weeks from the holidays, with alterations then no doubt, then back to full working in January?

I would have thought the better times for changes would be immediately after Easter ot the firstMay bank holiday, and after the October "half-term" thus splitting the year into two distinct seasons?

Early May became the "norm" from about 1968 until about 2004, before 1968 the timetables I have seem to be June/September with the summer extra trains in the former. From about 2004 the date was aligned with the European norm as mentioned already above.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I'd watch this space regarding those dates.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whether true or not i don’t know, but one reason given for European timetables changing in December is to tie in with the start of the French ski season.

 

[pdeaves]

As a matter of side interest, timetable change date going way, way back to nationalisation are given on this page: http://www.rinbad.free-online.co.uk/Timetable dates.htm. The same page has a link (at Dec 2004) to the European directive affecting 'modern' timetable change dates.

 

[306024]

Whether true or not i don’t know, but one reason given for European timetables changing in December is to tie in with the start of the French ski season.

It’s what I was told too, but possibly from the same source!

All to do with EU directive 2012/34. Here’s a relevant link, too long to quote, and good luck to anyone trying to understand it.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudr/2012/34

You couldn’t pick a worse time than early December. The biggest Short Term Planning exercise is planning Christmas and New Year, with or without major engineering work. To do that in a timely fashion you need the base plan to be fully confirmed before you start. Yet you can’t start it too early otherwise you’ll be chasing all the last minute alterations to the Long Term Plan that inevitably occur.

Easter is the next biggest task, so having both Christmas and Easter in the same timetable period helps. Easter is a moveable feast though, and can end up close to Mayday, but similary there could be advantages in the planning world for having Mayday, Spring and August Bank Holidays in the same planning period too.

There’s probably good arguments why this wouldn’t be a good idea, not all TOCs are the same, but nearly anything would be better than December.

 

[30907]

I presume the EU directive wasn't arbitrary, but on the basis of the International Timetable Conference or similar recommendation - after all, Christmas and New Year take place at the same time over most of the EU (though I suppose we are unique in having such massive alterations).

BTW it only applies to international traffic.

I would agree that changing a month earlier would make sense - though whether the planners of NR would like T-12 in mid-August I doubt....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Airlines change their main timetables by international agreement at the end of March and end of October, coinciding with the summer/winter clock changes in northern latitudes (eg Europe, USA/Canada).
But minor changes, including starting and ending services, happen all the time.

 

[dk1]

Always was mid-May to late September back in the day. All changed to fall in line with Europe several years back.

 

[zwk500]

I presume the EU directive wasn't arbitrary, but on the basis of the International Timetable Conference or similar recommendation - after all, Christmas and New Year take place at the same time over most of the EU (though I suppose we are unique in having such massive alterations).

As with others, I've been told it was the French who were largely responsible. (A Mr Ogle was my source, not sure if that tallies)

BTW it only applies to international traffic.

Indeed, but as the Kent HS1 timetbale is driven by Eurostar, and the rest of Kent is determined around the Javelins, and so on, and so forth....

I would agree that changing a month earlier would make sense - though whether the planners of NR would like T-12 in mid-August I doubt....

T-12 in mid-August is no better or worse than T-12 anywhere else, tbh. The biggest problem for NR, in my experience, was that T-12 for easter always used to be just as the final tweaks for christmas came in, and it didn't really matter when the WTT changed for that.

 

[James H]

I have a vague recollection of once being told that when timetables used to change slightly earlier in May than they do now, the change date was somehow (by accident or design) tied to St Pancras Day (12 Day) in the church calendar and that you always knew the timetable would change on the nearest weekend to St Pancras Day.

 

[Magdalia]

before 1968 the timetables I have seem to be June/September with the summer extra trains in the former.

Separate summer timetable June to September was up to 1964/65.

Easter is a moveable feast though, and can end up close to Mayday

Until 1965 the spring Bank Holiday was Whit Monday, which was also a movable feast. In 1962 it was on 11 June. All of the Whit weekend was done via STN additions to the winter timetable. The summer timetable always started after Whit weekend, hence it starting in June not May.

Bank Holidays on last Monday in May and August started in 1966, prior to that August Bank Holiday had been on the first Monday.

In 1962, 1963 and 1964 the summer timetable only covered 12 weeks from mid June to early September. The finish roughly coincided with start of school autumn term.

Early May became the "norm" from about 1968

From 1965 to 1985 there was no separate summer timetable, though there were some changes made by issuing timetable supplements.

1965, 1966 and 1967 are anomalies because the change dates were driven by WCML electrification dates.

From 1968 the annual change date was the first Monday in May, but this was messed up when Mayday Bank Holiday was introduced. The start date was moved back to sit between the two May Bank Holidays.

Separate summer and winter timetables were reintroduced in 1986 with summer running from mid May to end September/start October. This gave a summer timetable of 20 weeks.

If you assume a situation whereby all we had to do was get Eurostar services in the system for the year-round and then the seasonal ones (marked up Q if needed), we could quite rightly move to a situation where we did switch to a Summer timetable at Easter and back again to "Winter" at the end of September.

Remember that when Eurostar started there was no High Speed 1 and the Eurostar trains shared tracks with local trains all the way from the tunnel to Waterloo.

On the other hand "all we had to do" for Eurostar would not have been much different from timetable planning for boat trains. Go back far enough and that also had to contend with UK and Europe "changing the clocks" at different dates.

 

[Andyh82]

December makes no sense and I’m surprised it makes any sense in Europe either.

You basically have commuters having to use a new timetable for what could be only one week, or maximum two weeks before the Christmas break

The industry has to advertise both the new timetable and Christmas engineering work timetables at the same time, and if they promote the latter for a long time may be publishing special timetables based on a timetable that hasn’t even started yet.

 

[zwk500]

December makes no sense and I’m surprised it makes any sense in Europe either.

As mentioned, it's the start of the French Ski Season as their schools break up. I would imagine that other countries ski seasons are at similar times.

 

[TUC]

It was to fall in line with mainland Europe. I agree it makes very little sense - the old summer/winter split with summer between May and September-October was more practical. Falling in line with mainland Europe is not necessary for the UK, because the one train service that does connect the two - Eurostar - doesn't follow it anyway!

This was the sort of requirement that gave the EU a bad name. Why should it matter if a rail system on a different land mass to most of the rest of Europe hs different timetable changeover dates?

 

[Man_with_beard]

May and December is far better than May/September which was four months then eight months before the next change.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember when working at Railfreight Distribution's Train Planning Unit on the Channel Tunnel traffic. We had a timetable in British Summer Time up until the October United Kingdom clock change and one in Greenwich Mean Time after the European Union clock change. But there was a third, intermediate timetable for the three (or was it four?) weeks when we had "equal time". One benefit of falling into line with the EU was eventually the clock-change days became the same for both "us and them"!

 

[pdeaves]

May and December is far better than May/September which was four months then eight months before the next change.

That implied you require even six month timetables. May/September is likely better for high summer (peak demand) and 'normal', making it easier to plan according to predicted demand.

 

[david1212]

The French ski season is mentioned but overall for Europe just like for the UK would a change October and April fit in better with leisure travel patterns.

Regardless now IMO time for the UK to change in October and late March or April.

 

[Clarence Yard]

This was the sort of requirement that gave the EU a bad name. Why should it matter if a rail system on a different land mass to most of the rest of Europe hs different timetable changeover dates?

Because the European freight corridor requirements stretch onto our own conventional railway.

In our EU days altering the “PCD” and “SCD” dates (as they are known) would have had to be done by all the Infrastructure Managers agreeing it together but that isn’t necessary now. The industry body here that determines such matters (the Class Representative Committee or CRC, for short) can make a change to the Network Code.

No one thinks December is a sane time to change a timetable so late May/early June and late September/early October are the new favoured times for timetable change. The two key dates in the “permanent” UK timetable calendar are the beginning and end of the summer timetable.

There will be a meeting on January 5th to determine the NR “proposal for change” to alter the dates from 2024 onwards and, if the CRC vote in favour, it will then go to the ORR who have to give it a final check for legality.

 

[Watershed]

As mentioned, it's the start of the French Ski Season as their schools break up. I would imagine that other countries ski seasons are at similar times.

How many ski extras are there though? And how many of them run all the way through until May? If this really is the reason, it's a bonkers one.

 

[zwk500]

How many ski extras are there though? And how many of them run all the way through until May? If this really is the reason, it's a bonkers one.

I don't know, but remember the French have always been keen to be the European (and to a lesser extent Global) rulers of railways. The UIC and various EU rail agencies are based in France, for instance. I think Berne Gauge was also a conference called by the French, and lots of the international standards, UIC and EU are based on French practice.
There's also a certain amount of 'decisions are made by those who turn up' in EU rule-setting. I wouldn't be surprised if the Germans and British really weren't bothered and it was easier to let the French have it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was quite a big shift in France - they head to the coast in summer and the mountains in winter. The ski trains don't run through to May, it's just a 6 month interval was decided to be the sensible length of time between each timetable. Hence December being the Principal change and May being the Subsidiary change.

 

[87015]

How many ski extras are there though? And how many of them run all the way through until May? If this really is the reason, it's a bonkers one.

Not to mention google has French school terms not finishing on timetable change date.

 

[Bald Rick]

How many ski extras are there though? And how many of them run all the way through until May? If this really is the reason, it's a bonkers one

Not to mention google has French school terms not finishing on timetable change date.

It’s the French ski season it aligns with, not the school holidays.

The season opens for most resorts on the second weekend of December, and that when the extra trains to Bourg St Maurice, Grenoble etc start running.

 

[Watershed]

It’s the French ski season it aligns with, not the school holidays.

The season opens for most resorts on the second weekend of December, and that when the extra trains to Bourg St Maurice, Grenoble etc start running.

Still baffles me why these couldn't be period-dated extras, as happens with many summer services (indeed I suspect these extra trains only run for maybe 2 or 3 months?).

 

[Bald Rick]

Still baffles me why these couldn't be period-dated extras, as happens with many summer services (indeed I suspect these extra trains only run for maybe 2 or 3 months?).

They run through to end April at least.

But yes, I agree?