Why are Wrightbus standards deteriorating?

[Gingerbus1991]

The reason being there so slow it due to Voiths Gearbox SensoTop software parameters, this can be altered.

It will have been Wrights who have asked this to be done in this way so they can boast about superior fuel economy.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's a strange one as the E200MMCs we have are fine and still set up how they left ADL. Bit slow on initial pull off, but after that they're fine and they have no issues on hills.

The Streetlites actually were not set up like this when new, most had the configuration changed when a few weeks old as the gearboxes were jumping all over the place and there was an issue with them not stopping properly. 63195 for example didn't get the update and while it is a tad faster it's still useless on hills and jumps all over the place. On the other hand 63209 has a "custom" set up (so to speak). It's much faster, has a higher top speed (60MPH rather than 46MPH) and doesn't jump about too much. Although i'd never consider it smooth!

I just wish they'd be taken off the road. Passengers and drivers are constantly complaining about them and they don't even get that good MPG!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's a strange one as the E200MMCs we have are fine and still set up how they left ADL. Bit slow on initial pull off, but after that they're fine and they have no issues on hills.

The Streetlites actually were not set up like this when new, most had the configuration changed when a few weeks old as the gearboxes were jumping all over the place and there was an issue with them not stopping properly. 63195 for example didn't get the update and while it is a tad faster it's still useless on hills and jumps all over the place. On the other hand 63209 has a "custom" set up (so to speak). It's much faster, has a higher top speed (60MPH rather than 46MPH) and doesn't jump about too much. Although i'd never consider it smooth!

I just wish they'd be taken off the road. Passengers and drivers are constantly complaining about them and they don't even get that good MPG!

Compare a standard old e200 with a Streetlite and, to be fair, they are both pretty basic and hardly plush. However, the Streetlite is certainly a downgrade from Wright's standards of yesteryear with the Daf SB120/Cadet, for example. Conversely, the e200mmc is a much better vehicle. Whether it's the longer versions or even the short ones that First Kernow have, they are much better in terms of ride quality.

However, the point on Streetlites and gearboxes is accurate. The ones that have been mapped properly are much better and I've seen ones really tackle hills in North Somerset yet others struggle elsewhere (such as First Hampshire) and that's ignoring those that dive into limp mode in Redditch!

 

[Bornin1980s]

Software in gearboxes? Is anything not a computer these days?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Software in gearboxes? Is anything not a computer these days?

Gearboxes still operate largely like they used too, previous Ecomats for example still work by the same principles as the newer Ecolife, with a Torque Converter, its just the electronic bits that have modernised so to speak.

Like Ive said before its all fuel saving tactics by means of the gearbox interfacing with the engine ECU program to alter the way in which the engine is aloud to “Push”, so even though you have pushed the Gas 100% the software says 80% will do... another way to think of it is the gearbox/ECU chatting to each other to electronically control the position of the accelerator pedal, hence the term, “Drive-By-Wire”.

Of course helping the engine last longer as alot of modern buses dont have forced kickdown switches(by choice of the operator), drivers can’t abuse the engines that way.

 

[Mwanesh]

Wright don't build the chassis as such. They come from Daimler (Streetdeck) and VDL (Streetlite), the vehicles are just sold as "integrals".

Streetlite is a Wright chassis.If it was a VDL it would be badged as such .The only big group that tends to buy large VDL orders is Arriva.Most of the the Streetlites are Cummins or Mercedes/Daimler powered.VDL is a Daf powered chassis.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Streetlite is a Wright chassis.If it was a VDL it would be badged as such .The only big group that tends to buy large VDL orders is Arriva.Most of the the Streetlites are Cummins or Mercedes powered.

Arriva is VDL’s UK Dealer, hence why Arriva most likely have them in service, but VDL at the moment only sell Futura Coaches in the UK.
Similar to the way EvoBus is the dealer for the Mercedes Citaro.

The Wright Streetlite WF(Wheel-Forward) and VDL Citea MLE are the same bus with slightly different exterior designs.

The Streetlite DF(Door-Forward 10.2/10.8m) can also be rebadged as a VDL product but have yet to be built.

The StreetLite Max(Long Wheelbase Door-Forward-11.5m) isn’t offered by VDL though, likely because they already offer a medium weight bus, the Citea LLE, which would cover what the Streetlite Max could do, perhaps its even to do with GVW regulations abroad that maybe why the Max isnt offer in a VDL form.

These weight restriction apply to UK 2-Axle deckers for example but do not apply in many places abroad, thats why Full Aircon can be had on a 2-Axle Streetdeck in Japan for Kowloon Motor Buses(Pictured with no Hopper Windows), not to mention the fitment of Daimlers larger/heavier 300hp OM936 6-Cylinder, of course the larger engine has been fitted because of the hills in Japan, anyways...

Think of the MLE as VDL’s foreign market Streetlite, the MLE is built exclusively with the Cummins 4-Cylinder ISBe to coincide with many of VDL’s offerings with Cummins engines(VDL also use Fiat-built Cursor Engines), by extension, considering the MLE is built at Wright Bellamena plant and exported, the streetlite range could potentially still be purchased with a cummins option in the UK even if it isnt advertised as such.

VDL do offer the Citea LLE abroad which can be thought of as a fullsize Medium Weight Single like the Enviro 300 with smaller wheels etc, it even uses the Cummins ISBe engines as well.

The Citea SLE is the equivelant of a B8RLE heavy GVW single, Note the larger wheels.

Wrights Streetdeck “intergal” chassis is built by Wrights with the Daimler OM934 engine in the same way ADL build the chassis for there Enviro 400 MMC with the Cummins ISBe6 engine, at this moment VDL don’t have a Double-Decker product as many foreign markets favour Artics for capacity, abroad, bridge height restrictions largely play a part to this when high capacity is needed.
Hence this is the point the VDL Citea SLFA Artic is introduced...

 

[Gingerbus1991]

It's a strange one as the E200MMCs we have are fine and still set up how they left ADL. Bit slow on initial pull off, but after that they're fine and they have no issues on hills.

The Streetlites actually were not set up like this when new, most had the configuration changed when a few weeks old as the gearboxes were jumping all over the place and there was an issue with them not stopping properly. 63195 for example didn't get the update and while it is a tad faster it's still useless on hills and jumps all over the place. On the other hand 63209 has a "custom" set up (so to speak). It's much faster, has a higher top speed (60MPH rather than 46MPH) and doesn't jump about too much. Although i'd never consider it smooth!

I just wish they'd be taken off the road. Passengers and drivers are constantly complaining about them and they don't even get that good MPG!

Voith’s latest iterations aren’t as good as they once were in many buses, albeit alot of late 2006/early 07 Euro4 Enviro 400s had Retarders which were far to abrupt at the slightest breath of brake pedal.

At one point I could’nt resist asking a Voith Technician at Stageys Dunfermline depot why the latest Voiths were poor at pulling away yet went Hunting for gears, and as he simply put it, MOST OPERATORS WANT ECONOMY, WHICH HAS A NOCK ON EFFECT OF GEARBOX RESPONSIVNESS AND SMOOTHNESS.

I’d also like to note that the tech guy said ADL have done away with the ZF AS-Tronic Lite 6Speed in the new 200 MMC with 4.5ltr engines as many operators, mostly in london didnt like the gearbox and it wasnt providing the economy ZF said it would help achieve.

In my eyes ZF however have made this far less of a problem when one of there latest Ecolifes is specified, which is one reason I’d like to see an Ecolife fitted to a 6-Cylinder 200 MMC, I speculate that this box could even be fitted to the Cummins 4-Cylinder 210hp unit as well instead of an Allison/Voith unit, considering this is what Volvo use on there D5K 4-Cylinder.

I had always wanted an answer and was glad when I got one, but I am still not happy that this is what modern tech has brought us.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

P.S I never new that VDL was a dutch company until looking on Wiki, I suppose this is where Wrights should not have went for partnership for a design to build upon.

I also apologise for being a bore.

 

[JE1672]

These weight restriction apply to UK 2-Axle deckers for example but do not apply in many places abroad, thats why Full Aircon can be had on a 2-Axle Streetdeck in Japan for Kowloon Motor Buses(Pictured with no Hopper Windows), not to mention the fitment of Daimlers larger/heavier 300hp OM936 6-Cylinder, of course the larger engine has been fitted because of the hills in Japan, anyways...

The red StreetDeck was exported to Hong Kong actually, whilst the aircon unit is from Denso in Japan I assume.
In fact there's a wright restriction of 18 tonnes for 2-Axle buses (including single deckers) in Hong Kong, in which each axle has their maximum load weight. The StreetDeck is still awaiting for type approval from Transport Department as the back axle was later found overload and hence two seats from the back row in lower deck have been removed, similar to what the 2-Axle B9TLs had experienced back in 2010 with the back row on the upper deck completely removed. Rumour has it KMB have placed an order of 50 examples...

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The red StreetDeck was exported to Hong Kong actually, whilst the aircon unit is from Denso in Japan I assume.
In fact there's a wright restriction of 18 tonnes for 2-Axle buses (including single deckers) in Hong Kong, in which each axle has their maximum load weight. The StreetDeck is still awaiting for type approval from Transport Department as the back axle was later found overload and hence two seats from the back row in lower deck have been removed, similar to what the 2-Axle B9TLs had experienced back in 2010 with the back row on the upper deck completely removed. Rumour has it KMB have placed an order of 50 examples...

As you can understand, Geography was not my strong point in school, Ive never been outside of Scotland!

Thanks for correcting me, still, loosing a few seats isnt all that bad, least this will go hills better than the OM934.

This should also help KMB save on fuel comparing them to the heavier Tri-Axles.

Is it not 19.5t for 2-axles, as I see it the Department for Transport as of last year(2017) in the UK had increased it from 18t.

 

[JE1672]

As you can understand, Geography was not my strong point in school, Ive never been outside of Scotland!

Thanks for correcting me, still, loosing a few seats isnt all that bad, least this will go hills better than the OM934.

This should also help KMB save on fuel comparing them to the heavier Tri-Axles.

Is it not 19.5t for 2-axles, as I see it the Department for Transport as of last year(2017) in the UK had increased it from 18t.

No hard feelings. Just adding supplementary information from what i know as a HK bus enthusiast. Not good at Geography either, but it’s always exciting to explore the world through foreign buses! I always find buses in Scotland stunning and attractive. Lothian’s are my all time favourite!

Fuel saving and lower tunnel fares were advertised by operators when 2-Axle deckers were first imported back to Hong Kong. Yet, given that the old tri-axle short wheelbase deckers are able to carry over a hundred of passengers, 2-Axle deckers' low capacity is somehow a concern for operators and passengers. Finger crossed the StreetDeck will be doing fine on hills though!

No news from TD on raising the weight restriction sadly. (The 2-Axle B9TLs and StreetDeck could've restored back to their default capacity if TD do so!)

Back to the topic, I can’t agree more that Wrights are deteriorating. Air leakage and badly attached components have become common issues ever since they passed assembly work to their partner in Malaysia, and the reduction of vehicle weight have worsen the situation. It is indeed a huge step backwards when comparing to the solid and steady Gemini 1s (and Explorer).

 

[Bornin1980s]

Gearboxes still operate largely like they used too, previous Ecomats for example still work by the same principles as the newer Ecolife, with a Torque Converter, its just the electronic bits that have modernised so to speak.

Like Ive said before its all fuel saving tactics by means of the gearbox interfacing with the engine ECU program to alter the way in which the engine is aloud to “Push”, so even though you have pushed the Gas 100% the software says 80% will do... another way to think of it is the gearbox/ECU chatting to each other to electronically control the position of the accelerator pedal, hence the term, “Drive-By-Wire”.

Of course helping the engine last longer as alot of modern buses dont have forced kickdown switches(by choice of the operator), drivers can’t abuse the engines that way.

What's a forced kickdowm switch?

 

[GusB]

What's a forced kickdowm switch?

From Google:

kick-down
noun
BRITISH
noun: kickdown

1. a device for changing gear in a motor vehicle with automatic transmission by full depression of the accelerator.

Useful when climbing hills and you want the gearbox to change to a lower gear to keep the revs up. When it works

 

[Gingerbus1991]

From Google:

Useful when climbing hills and you want the gearbox to change to a lower gear to keep the revs up. When it works

If anyone has driven a bus with say a ZF Ecomat with its Topodyn Software fixed in Eco Mode you'll find that pressing the accelerator to say 99% the gearbox will still upshift early at 1500rpm to help save fuel with the remaining 1% of the gas pedal representing the kickdown-switch(picture attached), The Ecomat will usually upshift even on hills or when starting off into a busy roundabout when in Eco mode, unless it was in say Power Mode, but in Power Mode this would mean that litterally everywhere would be done with the engine at 2000rpm not good for fuel economy, of course Eco Mode + Kickdown Switch means the best of both world is achieved.

If starting from a standstill and you press the kickdown-switch the Gearbox will hold 1st gear and let the engine RPM rev out to say 2000rpm before changing up to 2nd to assist faster Acceleration approach a motorway or hill for instance.

If you find that your on say a 40mph road and you go to overtake a cyclist from 20 mph whilst you gearbox is in say 4th or even 5th showing 1300rpm, by pressing the Kickdown-Switch you initiate a Gearbox Downshift and more RPM, Ergo better Acceleration.

The newer ZF Ecolife uses the newer Topodyn Life program to continuously find different shift patterns, the gearbox can also sense hills, but only whilst on the hill, ergo it will then hold the RPM.
This software can also be used in conjunction with a Kickdown-switch, butboperators use the newer Life software with a kickdown for better fuel economy.

 

[Mwanesh]

P.S I never new that VDL was a dutch company until looking on Wiki, I suppose this is where Wrights should not have went for partnership for a design to build upon.

I also apologise for being a bore.

Wright have always worked with Daf from years ago.Daf/VDL is still the same .

 

[delticdave]

If anyone has driven a bus with say a ZF Ecomat with its Topodyn Software fixed in Eco Mode you'll find that pressing the accelerator to say 99% the gearbox will still upshift early at 1500rpm to help save fuel with the remaining 1% of the gas pedal representing the kickdown-switch(picture attached), The Ecomat will usually upshift even on hills or when starting off into a busy roundabout when in Eco mode, unless it was in say Power Mode, but in Power Mode this would mean that litterally everywhere would be done with the engine at 2000rpm not good for fuel economy, of course Eco Mode + Kickdown Switch means the best of both world is achieved.

If starting from a standstill and you press the kickdown-switch the Gearbox will hold 1st gear and let the engine RPM rev out to say 2000rpm before changing up to 2nd to assist faster Acceleration approach a motorway or hill for instance.

If you find that your on say a 40mph road and you go to overtake a cyclist from 20 mph whilst you gearbox is in say 4th or even 5th showing 1300rpm, by pressing the Kickdown-Switch you initiate a Gearbox Downshift and more RPM, Ergo better Acceleration.

The newer ZF Ecolife uses the newer Topodyn Life program to continuously find different shift patterns, the gearbox can also sense hills, but only whilst on the hill, ergo it will then hold the RPM.
This software can also be used in conjunction with a Kickdown-switch, but both operators use the newer Life software with a kickdown for better fuel economy.

Thanks for the above info, it's very interesting. I'm not a bus driver, just a passenger (mostly since owning a bus-pass) & today's power-trains are interesting....
I'm old enough to remember LT's RT's & RM's, the semi-auto boxes in Bristols & Leylands & the direct air-operated boxes in Dutch inter-urban DAF's.
All the above had driver involvement, but I'm suspecting that today's buses don't have the ability for the driver to select or hold a gear when necessary.

I still drive automatic cars, & but all our recent purchases have a drive mode, full manual control + steering-wheel paddles for an instant override.
Said transmissions provide a very smooth & comfortable driving experiences, but so many of the buses I use seem to have returned to the dark ages,
clunky shifting, odd noises & miss-matched drive trains.

(Mostly First Essex Wright Eclipse Urbans with Volvo chassis, & possibly 6-cylinder engines from Chelmsford garage.)

DC

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Thanks for the above info, it's very interesting. I'm not a bus driver, just a passenger (mostly since owning a bus-pass) & today's power-trains are interesting....
I'm old enough to remember LT's RT's & RM's, the semi-auto boxes in Bristols & Leylands & the direct air-operated boxes in Dutch inter-urban DAF's.
All the above had driver involvement, but I'm suspecting that today's buses don't have the ability for the driver to select or hold a gear when necessary.

I still drive automatic cars, & but all our recent purchases have a drive mode, full manual control + steering-wheel paddles for an instant override.
Said transmissions provide a very smooth & comfortable driving experiences, but so many of the buses I use seem to have returned to the dark ages,
clunky shifting, odd noises & miss-matched drive trains.

(Mostly First Essex Wright Eclipse Urbans with Volvo chassis, & possibly 6-cylinder engines from Chelmsford garage.)

DC

You’ll be refering to Volvo D7C 6-Cylinder engines, The ZF Ecomat Gearbox these are likely coupled too are renowned for being, what enthusiast like to call “Musical”. I just refer to them as noisy!

Alot of the latest round of buses for Euro6 do seem to have taken a step back somewhat in favour of better fuel economy, regarding refinement etc.

 

[route101]

When i look at a Streetlite i think they are a small bus that has simply been extended . Not noticed anything wrong with them in Glasgow , bit slow like the e300s minds .

 

[delticdave]

You’ll be refering to Volvo D7C 6-Cylinder engines, The ZF Ecomat Gearbox these are likely coupled too are renowned for being, what enthusiast like to call “Musical”. I just refer to them as noisy!

A lot of the latest round of buses for Euro6 do seem to have taken a step back somewhat in favour of better fuel economy, regarding refinement etc.

Thank You, Kind Sir.

Musical does indeed equal noisy, & they seem to have variations in the shifting patterns, (up or down) + extra "jerkiness" too.
Q?, does the Ecomat have a friction clutch, a fluid coupling or a torque converter to get the vehicle moving &/or to cushion the gearshifts?

I had to suffer a 31 seat "square bodied" Dart last week & that seemed to have a 4 cylinder lump + a 4-speed torque converter transmission, somewhat smoother than the Ovlovs.......

Cheers & TIA, DC

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Thank You, Kind Sir.

Musical does indeed equal noisy, & they seem to have variations in the shifting patterns, (up or down) + extra "jerkiness" too.
Q?, does the Ecomat have a friction clutch, a fluid coupling or a torque converter to get the vehicle moving &/or to cushion the gearshifts?

I had to suffer a 31 seat "square bodied" Dart last week & that seemed to have a 4 cylinder lump + a 4-speed torque converter transmission, somewhat smoother than the Ovlovs.......

Cheers & TIA, DC

The Ecomat does use a lock-up clutch, A fluid coupling/torque convertor is the same thing.

A torque convertor uses fluid where the impeller “pushes” fluid into the turbine, the turbine spins, when the turbine reaches near the same speed as the impellor the Lock-Up clutch closes, the turbine returns the fluid through the centre of the stator and the process is back to the start.

 

[delticdave]

The Ecomat does use a lock-up clutch, A fluid coupling/torque convertor is the same thing.

A torque convertor uses fluid where the impeller “pushes” fluid into the turbine, the turbine spins, when the turbine reaches near the same speed as the impellor the Lock-Up clutch closes, the turbine returns the fluid through the centre of the stator and the process is back to the start.

I did wonder if it used a computer controlled friction clutch, (like we have in the DSG auto's in our cars) rather than a fluid coupling,as used in RT's & RM's.
A torque converter is a bit different, there is a fixed stator ring with blades designed to multiply the input torque from the engine.
I've owned cars with a 4-speed torque-converter transmission that were set-up to lock-up the clutch at app. 2K rpm, but only in 3rd & 4th.
A good idea, & quite noticeable when cruising.

Leyland Gearless buses had only a torque converter, (no extra gear ratios, just reverse & forwards) did exist in the '30's, & I've heard just how bad they were at hill-climbing from an ex. LPTB driver.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I did wonder if it used a computer controlled friction clutch, (like we have in the DSG auto's in our cars) rather than a fluid coupling,as used in RT's & RM's.
A torque converter is a bit different, there is a fixed stator ring with blades designed to multiply the input torque from the engine.
I've owned cars with a 4-speed torque-converter transmission that were set-up to lock-up the clutch at app. 2K rpm, but only in 3rd & 4th.
A good idea, & quite noticeable when cruising.

Leyland Gearless buses had only a torque converter, (no extra gear ratios, just reverse & forwards) did exist in the '30's, & I've heard just how bad they were at hill-climbing from an ex. LPTB driver.

Modern torque convertor autos usually lock-up in 1st just as you've set off, to do this they use a reinforced Torsional Damper, one which is much stronger than youd find 20 years ago, simply through the advancements in materials and electronics.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Modern torque convertor autos usually lock-up in 1st just as youve set off, to do they use use a reinforced Torsional Damper, one which is much stronger than youd find 20 years ago, simply through the advancements in materials and electronics.

On most ZF Ecomat's they lock-up in 2nd gear, on some buses you can actually hear by the sounds the gearbox makes, when it locks in. On the later 4th generation Ecomats though they lock-up in first.

 

[Mikey C]

From a passenger point of view, the Gemini 3 is a big step down from the Gemini 2

A major issue for Wrights at the moment is the success of the MCV Evoseti bodywork on the B5LH in London. I imagine they're cheaper, and arguably better looking and nicer for the passenger, with their larger windows (and bonded glazing) upstairs.

The Streetlite doesn't seem to have been a great success in London, I quite liked its predecessor the VDL/Wright Cadet

 

[delticdave]

Modern torque convertor autos usually lock-up in 1st just as you've set off, to do this they use a reinforced Torsional Damper, one which is much stronger than youd find 20 years ago, simply through the advancements in materials and electronics.

I think that the same applies to cars & light commercials, the 4-speeds I mentioned earlier were fitted to various '90's Fords & Vauxhalls.
I've driven a few cars with 8-speed ZF's & they only slip when starting. As for the shifts, pretty much imperceptible, just a change in the engine note or the "what gear you are in" display.

Q?, why are there such variations in shifting patterns & jerk rates on my local buses? The route only requires 4 buses & they are usually the from same batch of Volvos from C/fd garage.

Does the driver have any form of manual control or is it all down to the right foot?
.

 

[class387]

From a passenger point of view, the Gemini 3 is a big step down from the Gemini 2

A major issue for Wrights at the moment is the success of the MCV Evoseti bodywork on the B5LH in London. I imagine they're cheaper, and arguably better looking and nicer for the passenger, with their larger windows (and bonded glazing) upstairs.

The Streetlite doesn't seem to have been a great success in London, I quite liked its predecessor the VDL/Wright Cadet

The Evoseti is much better than the Gemini 3 body in my opinion, but worse than any previous Gemini. Still has the problem of the jerky gearbox that the B5LH has though.

MCV's new Evora bodywork for the Volvo B8RLE is also brilliant (despite my initial reservations) with theatre seating and massive windows. Better than any Wright Eclipse and almost as good as a Citaro.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The Evoseti is much better than the Gemini 3 body in my opinion, but worse than any previous Gemini. Still has the problem of the jerky gearbox that the B5LH has though.

MCV's new Evora bodywork for the Volvo B8RLE is also brilliant (despite my initial reservations) with theatre seating and massive windows. Better than any Wright Eclipse and almost as good as a Citaro.

"Evora" describes it's appearance too... Such an ugly monstrosity that looks like it was bodged together using bits left over from their previous products.

 

[class387]

"Evora" describes it's appearance too... Such an ugly monstrosity that looks like it was bodged together using bits left over from their previous products.

I agree. The first time I saw a picture of one I described it here as a 'double decker crashed into a bridge' and got very annoyed when Uno ordered them for my local route. However, Best Impressions managed to tidy them up using lots of black vinyl so they look less awful. The main reason why I like them is that there are so many great features for passengers - huge windows, high ceiling, dimming lighting, theatre seating etc. The build quality is solid too.

 

[Mikey C]

The Evoseti is much better than the Gemini 3 body in my opinion, but worse than any previous Gemini. Still has the problem of the jerky gearbox that the B5LH has though.

MCV's new Evora bodywork for the Volvo B8RLE is also brilliant (despite my initial reservations) with theatre seating and massive windows. Better than any Wright Eclipse and almost as good as a Citaro.

A very unscientific observation, but the Evosetis do seem to steam up inside a lot upstairs!

Not sure why that is, is the air chilling system a bit ineffective, or do the windows have a really tight seal?