Why could they not have used Class 379s for the EMR Connect services?

[QSK19]

Moderator note - split from:

EMR Regional and Connect refurbishments

East Midlands Railway have (finally) announced that they will be refurbishing their Class 158s, 170s and 360s as part of a £60 million pound refurbishment programme. Read the full article here East Midlands Railway (EMR) has announced the start of a £60 million programme to refurbish its...

www.railforums.co.uk

One of the issues people might have with the 360s is that there are no corridor connections between units.

Such a shame that the 379s couldn’t have been used for Connect. I doubt we would have had even half the problems incurred with the 360s.

 

[43096]

Such a shame that the 379s couldn’t have been used for Connect. I doubt we would have had even half the problems incurred with the 360s.

I’m not sure what your logic for that is. The same flaws with the operation - limited access to Bedford, no maintenance facility at Kettering, off route main maintenance facility - would all still be there. Indeed they might be worse: where would the 379s have gone for maintenance? Siemens at Northampton wouldn’t have been likely.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the 360s, as evidenced by their past reliability and the reliability of other Desiro fleets. It is the flaws in the setup that affect them.

 

[Trainman40083]

Such a shame that the 379s couldn’t have been used for Connect. I doubt we would have had even half the problems incurred with the 360s.

I so agree, but were they available or already pencilled in for Great Northern ?

 

[dosxuk]

They weren't available when the 360's were confirmed, but IIRC they had become available by the time the 360's actually appeared on the route - and had no future use planned.

The EMR stock plans in their franchise bid were, to put it politely, optimistic, and the introduction of the 360's was nearly as farcical as the 810's. In particular I note that Southern are still running their 171's which EMR said they would be taking as part of their bid.

 

[Aspen90]

The facilities at Kettering depot are set up for 379’s, everything is just out of position for where it needs to be for the 360’s!

 

[Class15]

In particular I note that Southern are still running their 171's which EMR said they would be taking as part of their bid.

How were they planning that? Would the Rye and Uckfield lines have been left with no service?

 

[Trainman40083]

How were they planning that? Would the Rye and Uckfield lines have been left with no service?

Yes, at least 171, (170421) never arrived.. The Government will say you can't have third rail any more. You can have battery trains but there aren't any, maybe not with the mileage range required. If they had put in third rail around the time they did Eastleigh to Fareham, the issue would have been sorted 20 years ago.

 

[Class15]

Yes, at least 171, (170421) never arrived.. The Government will say you can't have third rail any more. You can have battery trains but there aren't any, maybe not with the mileage range required. If they had put in third rail around the time they did Eastleigh to Fareham, the issue would have been sorted 20 years ago.

Agreed.

Those two southern routes just need to be done at some point! I can’t understand why they weren’t done years ago.

 

[Trainman40083]

Agreed.

Those two southern routes just need to be done at some point! I can’t understand why they weren’t done years ago.

Health and safety means you can't install new third rail, isn't it .So you order new diesel trains and kick the issue into the long grass for some years. Then you have the same problem.

 

[D365]

The facilities at Kettering depot are set up for 379’s, everything is just out of position for where it needs to be for the 360’s!

Which Kettering depot?

 

[Trainman40083]

Which Kettering depot?

The stabling sidings just south of the station

 

[BranstonJnc]

Moderator note - split from:

EMR Regional and Connect refurbishments

East Midlands Railway have (finally) announced that they will be refurbishing their Class 158s, 170s and 360s as part of a £60 million pound refurbishment programme. Read the full article here East Midlands Railway (EMR) has announced the start of a £60 million programme to refurbish its...

www.railforums.co.uk

Such a shame that the 379s couldn’t have been used for Connect. I doubt we would have had even half the problems incurred with the 360s.

How many 379s? Is it 30?

And yet a fleet of only 21 (?) 360s is more than sufficient for Corby, so one assumes to have taken only 21 379s and leaving a Microfleet of 9 was not an acceptable situation.

 

[Helvellyn]

How many 379s? Is it 30?

And yet a fleet of only 21 (?) 360s is more than sufficient for Corby, so one assumes to have taken only 21 379s and leaving a Microfleet of 9 was not an acceptable situation.

There are 21 360s, which operate in pairs on 6 diagrams (so 12 units). They were meant to be running as triples (so 18 units) but that has never happened. 30 x 379s would have been too many, and leaving a micro fleet pointless as you say. It's a shame a couple of ex Heathrow Connect 360s couldn't have been taken as 4-cars to give a little more slack and allow the 12-car peak running.

 

[BranstonJnc]

Once the 360 refurb is done, and once the units are in good shape and working well, having the option of all those 12 car units dashing about and having stacks of capacity will be a huge net positive. I actually quite like the 360s, and I would sooner the 379s have gone to GN so that they could give Lynn back real First Class.

 

[Failed Unit]

I’m not sure what your logic for that is. The same flaws with the operation - limited access to Bedford, no maintenance facility at Kettering, off route main maintenance facility - would all still be there. Indeed they might be worse: where would the 379s have gone for maintenance? Siemens at Northampton wouldn’t have been likely.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the 360s, as evidenced by their past reliability and the reliability of other Desiro fleets. It is the flaws in the setup that affect them.

Hornsey could have being the possibly for servicing them. At least they could get their under their own power. However Hornsey understands Siemens stock and we haven’t even had a rumour about them getting serviced there.

 

[Trainman40083]

Once the 360 refurb is done, and once the units are in good shape and working well, having the option of all those 12 car units dashing about and having stacks of capacity will be a huge net positive. I actually quite like the 360s, and I would sooner the 379s have gone to GN so that they could give Lynn back real First Class.

Maybe they will also work to Leicester

 

[BranstonJnc]

Maybe they will also work to Leicester

Well at the point at which Corby remains half-hourly, and the timetable stays in the state it's in, one can assume there's no specific reason to do that. And as Leicester terminating trains from London isn't likely to have much purpose (the limited paths you have, you need to run to Notts and Sheff), means you are hoping instead for lots of 10 car 810s.

 

[Aspen90]

We also need to work out how to get wires in to Leicester station!

 

[Trainman40083]

Well at the point at which Corby remains half-hourly, and the timetable stays in the state it's in, one can assume there's no specific reason to do that. And as Leicester terminating trains from London isn't likely to have much purpose (the limited paths you have, you need to run to Notts and Sheff), means you are hoping instead for lots of 10 car 810s.

Any 810s would be a start... Given how many double Meridian sets there are now, trains have become more cosy.

 

[Bald Rick]

We also need to work out how to get wires in to Leicester station!

No, we don’t. That was worked out years ago.

 

[Aspen90]

No, we don’t. That was worked out years ago.

What’s the plan with it? I’d clearly missed this…

 

[Zomboid]

There's a design to do it and has been for ages. The issue with using EMUs in the short term would be building it in time - and that's not going to happen in the next couple of months.

 

[43074]

Hornsey could have being the possibly for servicing them. At least they could get their under their own power. However Hornsey understands Siemens stock and we haven’t even had a rumour about them getting serviced there.

The connection from West Hampstead to Upper Holloway on the Goblin (or Carlton Road to Junction Road Junctions) isn't electrified, and they likely wouldn't be permitted via the Thameslink core and a reversal at St Pancras Low Level. Hornsey is also full to capacity as it is with GTR stock so would probably not be a viable option.

Bedford Cauldwell as a Depot is only equipped for light maintenance (although at one point was being fitted with roof access for the units), and EMR only seem to trip demic units there on Control moves rather than having diagrams which cycle them naturally to/from the depot. It's also shared with GTR so of the 8 roads EMR only have 3 each night.

They really ought to have built a new EMU Depot (rather than just servicing sidings) at the Kettering/Corby end of the route.

 

[Class15]

The connection from West Hampstead to Upper Holloway on the Goblin (or Carlton Road to Junction Road Junctions) isn't electrified, and they likely wouldn't be permitted via the Thameslink core and a reversal at St Pancras Low Level. Hornsey is also full to capacity as it is with GTR stock so would probably not be a viable option.

Bedford Cauldwell as a Depot is only equipped for light maintenance (although at one point was being fitted with roof access for the units), and EMR only seem to trip demic units there on Control moves rather than having diagrams which cycle them naturally to/from the depot. It's also shared with GTR so of the 8 roads EMR only have 3 each night.

They really ought to have built a new EMU Depot (rather than just servicing sidings) at the Kettering/Corby end of the route.

How about they just go to Northampton under their own power by electrifying the Junction Road - Carlton Road section and reversing at Upper Holloway?

 

[Trainman40083]

How about they just go to Northampton under their own power by electrifying the Junction Road - Carlton Road section and reversing at Upper Holloway?

Or just electrify Bedford to Bletchley and onto Oxford.

 

[Nottingham59]

No, we don’t. That was worked out years ago.

Does the plan involve reducing usable platform length at the London end to allow the wires to rise up between the station concourse bridge and the start of the platform?

 

[Energy]

They weren't available when the 360's were confirmed, but IIRC they had become available by the time the 360's actually appeared on the route - and had no future use planned.

Both would have been eventually available. Greater Anglia planned to release the 360s first, and the fleet size fit EMR well.

Class 720 delays caused the 360s to be released later. Greater Anglia's maintenance of outgoing stock wasn't great. So, the units arrived late, full of faults and need dragging to Northampton for heavy maintenance.





The DfT wanted HSTs gone ASAP. Abellio had a plan, on paper, with the 360s, stretching 222s, and a few 180s.

Had their not been the same level of urgency, a class 395-esc fleet to serve intercity & Corby may have been better. And the combined fleet would be big enough to justify a proper enroute heavy maintenance depot.

 

[Starmill]

How were they planning that? Would the Rye and Uckfield lines have been left with no service?

They would have been served with battery units. Doesn't seem to matter much now though frankly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 20:03 ==

No, we don’t. That was worked out years ago.

Not much use as a design and without a more cohesive plan for capacity in the Leicester and Syston areas though.

 

[Bald Rick]

How about they just go to Northampton under their own power by electrifying the Junction Road - Carlton Road section and reversing at Upper Holloway?

Electrifying Carlton Road to Junction Road junction is non-trivial, as I have explained before on these pages. If it was easy it would have been done. It is not at all easy, and likely it will never be done.

Not much use as a design and without a more cohesive plan for capacity in the Leicester and Syston areas though.

Well we will just have to see, wont we.