Why did Eurostar go with Siemens Velaro rather than the Alstom AGV?

[class373]

Just a thought seeing as the company is partly French?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Was the Alstom AGV design up and running? I'm not aware of any SNCF TGV sets that have distributed traction. I suspect EU regulations mean't that they couldn't just go for a French built design without considering anything else.
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Just remembered that there is an Italian railway company who use the AGV design but I'm pretty sure they are the only ones and I'm not sure how successful the design has been.

 

[HSTEd]

The offer being considered was the one being proposed by SNCF, which was the TGV Duplex.
The AGV has little benefit given the low operating speeds on HS1, LGV Nord and the tunnel.
SNCF really doesn't like the AGV.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The offer being considered was the one being proposed by SNCF, which was the TGV Duplex.
The AGV has little benefit given the low operating speeds on HS1, LGV Nord and the tunnel.
SNCF really doesn't like the AGV.

What aspect(s) of AGVs doesn't SNCF like? If it's distributed traction they may as well not order any new trains as that's the way all new designs seem to be going

 

[HSTEd]

What aspect(s) of AGVs doesn't SNCF like? If it's distributed traction they may as well not order any new trains as that's the way all new designs seem to be going

It's single deck.
SNCF have not ordered a single single-deck TGV trailer or AGV vehicle since the first TGV Duplex vehicle entered service.
Even the TGV Lyria trailers were refurbished trailers from older TGVs that were obtained by swapping them with rakes of brand new Duplex trailers.
They've fallen hopelessly in love with them - and I don't blame them.

 

[33Hz]

Having traveled on both the AGV and TGV Duplex, give me an AGV any day. The ride is fantastic, the cabin really nice and ambience much better. Plus the food offer from Italo was far superior to anything served up by SNCF.

However, I've also traveled on one of the new Velaro Ds and it too is fantastic. I can see why Eurostar would go with it from a passenger satisfaction and I suspect Germany access point of view.

 

[jopsuk]

It's single deck.
SNCF have not ordered a single single-deck TGV trailer or AGV vehicle since the first TGV Duplex vehicle entered service.
Even the TGV Lyria trailers were refurbished trailers from older TGVs that were obtained by swapping them with rakes of brand new Duplex trailers.
They've fallen hopelessly in love with them - and I don't blame them.

Quite- they're now up to 160 of the original (in standard, Dasye and reseau varients), 55 2n2 and have another 40 2n2 coming- versus 107 Sud Est built, 107 Atlantique and 90 Reseau (the three single deck versions). I'm pretty sure if they COULD get a duplex AGV they would, which is odd, as you'd have thought Alstom would therefore have made it a priority.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm surprised that Alstom even bothered with a single deck AGV afaik every European country (apart from the UK obviously) has a generous enough loading gauge that they can handle double deckers. There can't be too much extra running costs for a double decker train over a single decker train

 

[jopsuk]

I know Germany has some double deck, but generally they seem to have been favouring single deck- all the ICE versions have been single, and the new IC units will be single.

 

[edwin_m]

It's only really the French who seem to favour double-deck high speed trains at present. You'd think if anyone needed them it would be the Chinese, but I believe all theirs are singles.

We've had the discussion several times on here on whether double deck is a good idea, without reaching much in the way of agreement. However one reason not mentioned much might be that only one supplier produces double deck high speed trains. This probably isn't a problem for SNCF given the attitude of the French to such things, but it could be a big issue for anyone trying to run a genuine competitive procurement.

 

[jopsuk]

The Japanese have dabbled with double deck high speed

 

[DarloRich]

Why did Eurostar go with Siemens Velaro rather than the Alstom AGV?

Because Siemens won a competitive tender.

 

[ainsworth74]

I seem to recall that toys left prams at quite high velocity in France when Siemens won the competative tender for the new Eurostar stock. Wasn't there a court case even?

 

[WatcherZero]

Was some hooha yes, the German offer required relaxing of the safety rules allowing distributed rather than locomotive traction, so the French Government tried to block that relaxation. After Siemens won the award Alstom then tried to challenge the award saying that Eurostar had negotiated with Siemens when they were supposed to be in exclusive talks with it, judge threw out the challenge saying yes they had broken the exclusivity deal but that they were going to choose Siemens anyway so didn't make any material difference in who won.

 

[33Hz]

But the AGV offer was also distributed traction...

 

[Quakkerillo]

I live in Brussels, and study in Leuven. Just outside of Leuven station, one of these new Siemens Velaro trains has been parked (and is being tested) for the past few weeks now.
I must say that they do look very good, and having used both ICE and the Alstom trains, I must say that I prefer the Siemens varieties just a bit more. Both comfort-wise and looks.

 

[gazthomas]

AGV have been running in Italy for a few years with .italo open access operator

 

[dk1]

I seem to recall that toys left prams at quite high velocity in France when Siemens won the competative tender for the new Eurostar stock. Wasn't there a court case even?

Yes that's true. French got in a right grumpy strop over that contract.

 

[fgwrich]

I remember that course case, which contained a certain amount of Irony - Ranging from Eurostar is French so therefore it should only be operating French built trains, to But these Velaro Ds will have distributed traction which is not allowed, carefully glossing over that the same AGV will also be running on Distributed Traction as well. But then again SNCF are hardly immune to getting itself into arguments, remember the SNCF / DB catering row?

 

[edwin_m]

I remember that course case, which contained a certain amount of Irony - Ranging from Eurostar is French so therefore it should only be operating French built trains, to But these Velaro Ds will have distributed traction which is not allowed, carefully glossing over that the same AGV will also be running on Distributed Traction as well. But then again SNCF are hardly immune to getting itself into arguments, remember the SNCF / DB catering row?

I wonder if the issue was that if distributed traction had been forbidden, only Alstom would have been able to offer something from their standard product range (some sort of TGV). Their competitors would have had to design a custom product and for a small order probably wouldn't have bothered to bid.

 

[HSTEd]

Talgo probably would have been able to put something together.

 

[edwin_m]

Talgo probably would have been able to put something together.

Possibly so, but knocking out the other two of the big three has got to improve Alstom's chances of winning!

 

[33Hz]

I live in Brussels, and study in Leuven. Just outside of Leuven station, one of these new Siemens Velaro trains has been parked (and is being tested) for the past few weeks now.
I must say that they do look very good, and having used both ICE and the Alstom trains, I must say that I prefer the Siemens varieties just a bit more. Both comfort-wise and looks.

I've passed that one a few times recently. I'm wondering if they are going as far as Germany with their testing of it?


One thing that struck me is that it's basically just a stock Velaro nose now. I remember reading back in the 90s that a lot of time was taken to optimise the nose of the original TMST sets for 100 mph channel tunnel running. Are we now saying that was a waste of effort?

 

[DownSouth]

One thing that struck me is that it's basically just a stock Velaro nose now. I remember reading back in the 90s that a lot of time was taken to optimise the nose of the original TMST sets for 100 mph channel tunnel running. Are we now saying that was a waste of effort?

ICE services cover a significant enough part of their journeys in tunnels that the 'stock' Velaro nose would already be tunnel compatible.

The publicity of the 1990s about all the 'special' stuff in the TGV-TMST was probably more intended for British consumption, where high speed rail was very much A New Thing and certain unique barriers had to be overcome to get British people riding on high speed rail for the first time. At the time plenty of people probably thought that 125mph was quick enough and that going faster on trains designed by foreigners (got to love a good dose of Not Invented Here) would be a little dangerous.

 

[33Hz]

Well the diameter of the channel tunnel is 7.6 metres whereas tunnels on the ICE lines are double that. That's a more forgiving environment for their more blunt nose to push air into. Of course, it doesn't mean that they can't go through at speed, it's just more of a brute force and power wasting approach.

What I read was in technical publications rather than the popular press. As for Not Invented Here, I'm sure some of the good people of GEC Alsthom in Birmingham would beg to differ...

 

[Voglitz]

Well the diameter of the channel tunnel is 7.6 metres whereas tunnels on the ICE lines are double that.

Which ICE tunnels are 15 metres diameter?

 

[DownSouth]

Well the diameter of the channel tunnel is 7.6 metres whereas tunnels on the ICE lines are double that. That's a more forgiving environment for their more blunt nose to push air into.

If that were actually true, the Channel Tunnel would not have needed to have been built with the cross vents to accommodate the piston effect, and all the high speed rail manufacturers would be making their newer models with pointy noses.

That the tunnels were built with cross vents, that new high speed sets from all manufacturers are getting more rounded (rather than more pointy) and that ICE sets are allowed to pass each other at speed in double track tunnels would suggest you are wrong.


The pointy nose is mostly just a superficiality worth more for marketing than for performance, while the real gains are to be made in the profile behind the nose. I'd bet on the smoother curves of the second-generation Velaro designed with computational fluid dynamic having a much better aerodynamic profile than the older TGV-TMST with all its boxy edges that generate massive drag-causing vortices.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much of the "pointyness" of the noses of TGVs is just down to the need for crash protection?

 

[33Hz]

Which ICE tunnels are 15 metres diameter?

Several on the Cologne - Frankfurt (e.g. Limburg), Nuremburg - Berlin and in China.

The cross sectional area of tunnels on such lines is 3 or 4 times that of the channel tunnel, thus even two trains passing at speed have a huge amount of volume to displace air into.
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If that were actually true, the Channel Tunnel would not have needed to have been built with the cross vents to accommodate the piston effect, and all the high speed rail manufacturers would be making their newer models with pointy noses.

The channel tunnel was built with cross vents because it is a smaller diameter single track bore that has to accommodate the huge double decker car trains that make pretty effective pistons.

That the tunnels were built with cross vents, that new high speed sets from all manufacturers are getting more rounded (rather than more pointy) and that ICE sets are allowed to pass each other at speed in double track tunnels would suggest you are wrong.

That all recent Shinkansen stock, the CRH-380A, Talgo and the AGV have very pointy noises suggests you are wrong.

AGV has an even more pronounced nose with sculpted features designed to channel airflow over the bogies than TMST did. It has 6 MW installed power vs 8 MW on the Velaro D, both for 460 seats. Alstom must see some merit in this approach, whereas Siemens seem to throw horsepower at the problem.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mikey C]

The original Eurostar train was an Anglo-French product with production also taking place in Washwood Heath and Preston, as well as in France.
With Alstom significantly running down their UK operations, there was far less political benefit to be gained from choosing their product than the Siemens one, bearing in mind that Eurostar isn't a solely French enterprise...