Why did Eurostar move from Waterloo to St Pancras?

[43096]

The infamous long walk from the Victoria to the ticket hall signposted at St Pancras is entirely within the LU station.

If using the Victoria line at Kings Cross/St Pancras I ignore the signs in both directions as it is faster that way and avoids the 10 mile extra walk.

 

[infobleep]

I don’t really care, the excess length of the tube passageways at KX/St P LU has been diiscussed numerous times by now.

I was responding to infobleep’s remark about it being apparently an unusual route.

I wasn't saying its an unusual route. I was just listing routes whilst surprised via London Bridge wasn't included.

Oxford Circus is an easy change but I do sometimes forget it, as the change symbol doesn't give the impression it's any faster than changing at other interchange stations, save when they have two circles and a link line between them.

Any suggestions for improvements are off topic so I'll leave it there.

 

[infobleep]

If using the Victoria line at Kings Cross/St Pancras I ignore the signs in both directions as it is faster that way and avoids the 10 mile extra walk.

Is there a perticular reason why the faster route isn't sign posted? Can't handle the passenger numbers?

 

[43096]

Is there a perticular reason why the faster route isn't sign posted? Can't handle the passenger numbers?

I can only assume that TfL modelled passenger flows through the station and decided the longer route was more efficient, in theory at least with the projected number of passengers.

I went through with my brother a few months back and he was saying how long it took until I ignored all the signs.

 

[infobleep]

The LU journey planner seems to be platform to platform. It seems to take little account of how long it may take you to get to the platforms.

It is indeed platform to platform. Just like railway stations. I guess it takes into account walks when needing to change trains. Just like railway stations.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there a perticular reason why the faster route isn't sign posted? Can't handle the passenger numbers?

I think it's partly to spread the passenger loading between the exits and along the platforms. I recall just before the "new" exits and ticket hall opened I arrived on the Northern on a Friday evening when Arsenal were playing and it took over 10min to get to the main line platforms at KX. Also for some combinations of St Pancras journeys, such as Northern Line to Southeastern, the quickest route may actually be via the northern ticket hall particularly when the other route is fairly busy.

From the Tube lines to Eurostar the quickest route unless it's really crowded is probably via the "old" exits, emerging in the square in front of KX then across the road into the side entrance to SP that leads directly into the E* ticket hall. But it's not the easiest route due to the crowds and the cabs in the road.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it's partly to spread the passenger loading between the exits and along the platforms. I recall just before the "new" exits and ticket hall opened I arrived on the Northern on a Friday evening when Arsenal were playing and it took over 10min to get to the main line platforms at KX. Also for some combinations of St Pancras journeys, such as Northern Line to Southeastern, the quickest route may actually be via the northern ticket hall particularly when the other route is fairly busy.

From the Tube lines to Eurostar the quickest route unless it's really crowded is probably via the "old" exits, emerging in the square in front of KX then across the road into the side entrance to SP that leads directly into the E* ticket hall. But it's not the easiest route due to the crowds and the cabs in the road.

London reconnections have just run an article about the various frequency increases on the tube, and reckon the limiting factor on the Victoria line is now the dwell time at Kings Cross. Short of rebuilding the platform tunnels completely I suspect the only way of dealing with the numbers is to rigorously enforce the modelled routes. But this is probably a bit of a side issue in the context of moving Eurostar from Waterloo, I think...

 

[Belperpete]

It is indeed platform to platform. Just like railway stations.

But that is inconsistent - it is not what it does for all the other start and end points that you can enter, such as postcodes, street names and places, where it gives you pavement to pavement times. If you want to get from say The Old Vic to Harrods, it will give you pavement to pavement times. But if you want to get from say Euston railway station to Victoria railway station, and you enter Euston tube/rail/bus as your start point and Victoria tube/rail/bus as your destination, it will tell you it takes 7 minutes. However, anyone thinking that they are going to get from Euston concourse to Victoria concourse in 7 minutes is going to be sorely disappointed, as it takes considerably longer to get to and from the platforms than the actual journey. OK, in this case it should hopefully be obvious that 7 minutes is a totally unrealistic time for this journey (which actually takes 27 minutes pavement to pavement), but with longer journeys it may not be so obvious that the journey times are unrealistic.

 

[infobleep]

But that is inconsistent - it is not what it does for all the other start and end points that you can enter, such as postcodes, street names and places, where it gives you pavement to pavement times. If you want to get from say The Old Vic to Harrods, it will give you pavement to pavement times. But if you want to get from say Euston railway station to Victoria railway station, and you enter Euston tube/rail/bus as your start point and Victoria tube/rail/bus as your destination, it will tell you it takes 7 minutes. However, anyone thinking that they are going to get from Euston concourse to Victoria concourse in 7 minutes is going to be sorely disappointed, as it takes considerably longer to get to and from the platforms than the actual journey. OK, in this case it should hopefully be obvious that 7 minutes is a totally unrealistic time for this journey (which actually takes 27 minutes pavement to pavement), but with longer journeys it may not be so obvious that the journey times are unrealistic.

Well that isn't the only issue I have with their Web Site and it would take the thread off topic if I continued.

I do take your point that it's inconstant. Google do it from the station point rather than platform. However Google have a lot of other issues with their address data, way off topic for this thread.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

For the most detail, you might want to hunt down a copy of BR's report on the different routes: "Rail Link Project: Comparison of Routes". A copy is available at the British Library as well as some other University libraries.

Otherwise, this case study on the CTRL will probably be of use too. Skip to page 79, "Route Options and Appraisal (1987-1993)". This includes content from BR's 1991 report as well as many others.

I just got a copy of the book from my university library and has the following interesting pieces of information:

The “final” route BR proposed in 1991 was to run the line towards the Medway, but cross it more downstream than how it is today. It would run to the South of Swanley where there would be a junction at a place called Bourne Wood for trains going to Waterloo. The line would then run aside the SEML to Hither Green into a tunnel.

It seems there wasn’t complete decision on where it’ll go next but Br wanted the line to swing west to Peckham to allow trains to reach the existing network at Warwick Gardens, although other connections were proposed at Elephant and Castle and New across Gate. The line would then continue under the City to Kings Cross Low Level.

There seems to be an awful lot of different NSE brands and I’m struggling to work out what they all mean. It speaks of a “Kent Express”, “Network Express” and “Thameslink Express”. The Network Express seems like a 1980s style Javelin train, although BR also wanted to route domestic CTRL onto Thameslink. Although they seemed to be rightly concerned about the loss of capacity on the Thameslink line.

Eurostar trains a day would have continued beyond London. Clearly this was the pre-Schengen/Single Market days.

As said before, Arup’s route, the one that got built, definitely intended to use the low level station for its terminus.

Wikipedia says the high speed networker train would be the class 341. But Chris Green’s “The Network South East Story” suggests that the class 371-a train built for Thameslink, would be 125 mph capable and thus be used on the CTRL. However I have a picture below from a 2011 Railway Magazine article that clearly shows some kind of high speed train but designated class 381, which Wikipedia seems to think was intended for several routes including LTS...? Looks a little overpowered for Southend services to me.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Eurostar trains a day would have continued beyond London. Clearly this was the pre-Schengen/Single Market days.

In fact, the single market and the Shengen zone were already in the offing at the start of the '90s, and must have been envisaged during discussion of "through-London" ideas. (Single Market as we know it today dates from 1993; Shengen was instituted in 1995.)

In any case, Shengen isn't relevant, since it didn't increase checks between UK and mainland Europe, it just decreased checks within much of mainland Europe.

 

[Birkonian]

My heart bleeds for those in the south east having to cross the Thames to get to St Pancras. We in the north west and in similarly far flung places facing 2 hour+ journeys just to get to London, rejoiced when Eurostar move away from Waterloo.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

My heart bleeds for those in the south east having to cross the Thames to get to St Pancras. We in the north west and in similarly far flung places facing 2 hour+ journeys just to get to London, rejoiced when Eurostar move away from Waterloo.

It is surreal as a South Londoner going to North London to go south again via East London!

 

[randyrippley]

Wikipedia says the high speed networker train would be the class 341. But Chris Green’s “The Network South East Story” suggests that the class 371-a train built for Thameslink, would be 125 mph capable and thus be used on the CTRL. However I have a picture below from a 2011 Railway Magazine article that clearly shows some kind of high speed train but designated class 381, which Wikipedia seems to think was intended for several routes including LTS...? Looks a little overpowered for Southend services to me.

this Wiki page describes the 371, 381 and 471
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Classes_371,_381_and_471

 

[randyrippley]

It is surreal as a South Londoner going to North London to go south again via East London!

no more surreal than getting a train from Paddington to Heathrow to fly east

 

[swt_passenger]

It is surreal as a South Londoner going to North London to go south again via East London!

But have you tried turning a map round so that the channel tunnel portal is at the bottom, and central London at the top? Doesn’t look quite so weird like that. You either veer off to the left round south London and turn right for the last bit, or veer off to the right and turn left...

 

[infobleep]

My heart bleeds for those in the south east having to cross the Thames to get to St Pancras. We in the north west and in similarly far flung places facing 2 hour+ journeys just to get to London, rejoiced when Eurostar move away from Waterloo.

Weymouth to London isn't under 2 hours. It's 2 hours 46 minutes. Portsmouth to London is under 2 hours but still 1 hour 40 minutes. So not everywhere in the South East is very close to London.

 

[randyrippley]

Weymouth to London isn't under 2 hours. It's 2 hours 46 minutes. Portsmouth to London is under 2 hours but still 1 hour 40 minutes. So not everywhere in the South East is very close to London.

Maybe that's because Weymouth isn't in the southeast?

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Maybe that's because Weymouth isn't in the southeast?

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East_Network_Railcard_map_Dec2019.pdf
All depends which map you use.

 

[infobleep]

Maybe that's because Weymouth isn't in the southeast?

It is within the network railcard area though. I was using the old network southeast boundaries rather than the geographical ones.