Why do major European bus manufacturers still avoid the UK?

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

The Olympian was, of course, the replacement for the preferred Bristol VR. NBC did undertake operational comparisons with Scania Metropolitans, Bristol VRs, MCW Metrobuses, Volvo Ailsas and Dennis Dominators, and a lone Foden NC. Northern and Maidstone & District subsequently bought Metrobuses but it was still mainly VRs (and latterly Olympians).

Now, the Scania Metropolitan is an interesting case in point. It was bought in greater numbers by London Transport, a number of PTEs, and a few municipals. However, and this was before the issues of corrosion were fully known, was that they were very heavy on fuel consumption. Of course, once they came up for their 7 year Certificate of Fitness, that corrosion issue meant many firms withdrew theirs at seven years if not earlier.

*****

The crux of the issue is money.

As a manager/accountant/fleet engineer, you can very definitely see the cost difference of heavyweight vehicles. Higher purchase costs, higher running costs (in fuel, and in parts). Also, with some foreign vehicles, there's the issue of parts availability so having more downtime is a cost in itself.

Some will point at the intangible and subjective benefits such as ride quality. That is much more difficult to quantify.

On the continent, you may have fleets provided to operators (who merely use and maintain them as part of their contract) so if they're doing 3 mpg, they're not on the hook.



Please point us to the place where there's a bus war using 20 year old vehicles.

3MPG? What buses are these..most buses go between 6-12mpg

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

3MPG? What buses are these..most buses go between 6-12mpg

Scania Metropolitans were notoriously thirsty. Conversely, Bristol LHs would return around 16.

B7Ls had horrendous MPG - less than 6 - but whilst I was exaggerating for comic effect, the principle remains true

 

[GCH100]

The reason is, simply that the UK bus market is saturated with large and medium groups for about 75% of the market, these operators prefer through choice, and past experiance to buy mainly from ADL but also Wrightbus, although Volvo is making a comeback with its Volvo BZL and as said before Volvo B8RLE's. The BZL mainly with Stagecoach and also with Warrington's own Buses and Metroline, many of which are on order.

Mercedes vehicles in the bus market tended to be fireballs, and still are with the eCitaro in Europe. VDL's relationship with Arriva broke down, when the Hughes/Arriva dealership arm was closed down, and also when they basically decided to stop buying buses in significant numbers. MAN have never really aside from the Stagecoach saloon order, never had a significant presence in the UK, and for what they would sell its hardly worth the bother for them to start now, for the numbers they would sell, after all the MAN 18.220 and 18.240's that Stagecoach had were hardly a success, and they went to ADL for saloon's. Scania have lost the plot with its latest single-decker, while its offered here it hardly sells any in the UK, and has the looks of a block of cheese.

There is some growth from Chinese based manufacturer's of Electric Buses, basically because the product is good and there is a vast experiance of building electric buses there, since China was the first Country in the World to start manufacturing them.

Another factor we need to remember is the UK is likely to introduce several franchise operations, such as the Bee Network in Greater Manchester, and the influence of the Labour Councils who will run them, is probably likely to call for UK built buses to be purchased in future for operation on them.

There are now not really places where bus competition takes place, for the person who said the roads are bothered with 20 year old buses in bus wars.

The coach market though is still dominated by European Manufacturer's despite the fact that Kassbohrer and Neoplan models are no longer offered in the UK.

 

[Mwanesh]

Blame the 1985 Transport Act. A stupid law that wants operators to compete and outlaws cross subsidy but meanwhile manufacturers are reducing in numbers. So instead of an operator monopoly we have a manufacturer virtual monopoly.
On the European mainland the buses are regulated, subsidised and they don't have stupid bus wars using 20 year old wrecks, although instances of this nonsense still flare up now and then.

Some areas have had better services. You cant keep blaming things on the Act even during regulation some places had clapped out buses.

 

[GusB]

Getting back to the original question of why major European manufacturers avoid the UK, I think there are a few factors at play here.

The first is volume - all of mainland Europe now drives on the right, so any European builder is going to have to re-engineer their products to left-hand drive in order to sell to the UK (or Ireland, Crown Dependencies, Malta and Cyprus for that matter). While theoretically this is far easier to do with modern design techniques, it's disruptive to have to re-jig the actual assembly process in order to cater for what is essentially a niche product.

Volvo has done very well over the years, initially by providing a good, versatile, product that could fulfill a number of roles (B58/B10M) and it has benefitted enormously from sizeable orders from group purchasers and continued loyalty from smaller independent operators. Let's not forget that the far-East markets have also provided a large incentive to manufacture right-hand drive models, and continue to do so. DAF (VDL) and Scania carved out a niche in the independent sector for a time and they've had some modest success with larger operators, but is there enough volume these days for it to be worth their while? Mercedes benefitted from mass adoption of minibuses after de-regulation and has continued in the small bus arena, but success in the big bus market has been limited.

Secondly, there was historically some resistance in the UK to integral products, with operators preferring to choose their own chassis and body combination. We've seen all the major UK manufacturers, which were all traditionally body builders, move towards a more vertically-integrated model and the options for external manufacturers have become much more limited. European manufacturers are left with the choice of having to sell their chassis/underframe with a UK body that's likely to be more expensive than the in-house equivalent, or promote their own integral products; the latter isn't so easy if an existing fleet has a large number of vehicles built by one manufacturer where there is going to be commonality of parts, even between different models.

Would Solaris or Ebusco enter the UK market at some point? I'd say that they probably would, if the numbers were right. If the UK continues to push on with franchising, we may get to the point where we see large orders being placed by a single organisation. UK manufacturers are gaining orders on the continent, so if there's an opportunity for continental manufacturers to gain a slice of the UK pie and it makes financial sense to do so, I don't think we can say never.

 

[pm2304877]

In the late 1980s it was suggested that the entire full size UK bus market could be catered for by the former Workington, Cumbria based Leyland National works, but that did not come to pass.The European continent obviously drives on the opposite side to the UK and Ireland and that complicates matters. AFAIK Japan drives on "our" side as does Hong Kong. Only Sweden changed sides in 1967 out of choice. Denmark changed sides on the "advice" of Mr. A Hitler in 1940. So only the big exporters have built for the British market.

 

[duncombec]

In the late 1980s it was suggested that the entire full size UK bus market could be catered for by the former Workington, Cumbria based Leyland National works, but that did not come to pass.The European continent obviously drives on the opposite side to the UK and Ireland and that complicates matters. AFAIK Japan drives on "our" side as does Hong Kong. Only Sweden changed sides in 1967 out of choice. Denmark changed sides on the "advice" of Mr. A Hitler in 1940. So only the big exporters have built for the British market.

Denmark changed to right-hand traffic in 1793. The only country in Europe to change in that era was Austria, concluding in 1938. Sweden had a referendum which favoured keeping left-hand traffic, but was overruled by government.

More importantly for the thread topic, it's understandable why European manufacturers aren't prevalent here with differing 'handedness' and the need to retool. Maybe the bigger question should be why we haven't exchanged more vehicles with Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, New Zealand and Singapore, to name but a few, all of which have left-hand traffic and presumably similar safety standards to our own?

 

[pm2304877]

Stagecoach imported Mega -Olympians and Dennis Dragons from Hong Kong (136xx and 15180-99 AFAIK) but all needed adjustments for the UK climate. Ker-ching
Ker-ching if you follow my meaning! Exchange rates complicate matters British firms were offered but didn't want second hand Scanias and Volvo's (this was 1966 and we still had a mass bus building industry.
Bus Eireann imported Volvo B57s from Singapore for iis Bus Scoile fleet. Again they needed heaters and other adjustments.

ASo British bus firms have in the past imported right hand drive(viewed from outside) vehicles. But not lately!

 

[mbonwick]

The obvious answer that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet, is height.

The UK generally is more into the double deck concept that mainland Europe, and DD products are expected to make full use of our 4.2m max height. This makes transporting anything across the continent, with its 4m max, somewhat difficult. Not impossible, but a barrier - which when combined with the (relative) small order quantities makes any EU-based manufacturer offering a double deck product very unattractive.

Chassis and single decks are another matter of course.

 

[450.emu]

MAN used to be very popular with Stagecoach particularly in ALX300 & Enviro300 variety but I think reliability was a factor in this ending & some engines replaced by Cummins examples.

VDL I only seem to see with Arriva but do they offer a Euro6 engined vehicle that could be used in the UK?

Arriva Bus and Coach were the sole importer for VDL / DAF buses in the UK, but I think a lot of their competitors such as First and Stagecoach may not have wanted to buy buses from a rival, let alone have them service them... so most of the DB250s, DB300's, SB200's stayed with Arriva, a few independents bought them as well.

VDL never made a Euro6 diesel for the DB300, but Arriva fitted particulate traps to upgrade them to Euro6. Seeing as VDL used Cummins engines, I am surprised they didn't offer a Euro6 variant. Perhaps Brexit, and a shift towards hybrids and electric stopped VDL offering options for the UK.

Wrightbus, who used to body the DB300's, switched to Daimler and made their own Streetdeck integral since 2014.

 

[Man of Kent]

The UK generally is more into the double deck concept that mainland Europe, and DD products are expected to make full use of our 4.2m max height.

4.2m (approx 13'10") is not a maximum height in the UK. Traditionally full height double deckers were typically 14'5"-14'6" (circa 4.42m) and there were Willowbrook bodies in the late 1970s/1980s which were closer to 14'9" (4.5m). It was the advent of low floor double decks that brought the overall height down a bit.

Also worth noting that UK bridges only require signing if the clear height is less than 16'6" (approx 5m).

 

[mbonwick]

4.2m (approx 13'10") is not a maximum height in the UK. Traditionally full height double deckers were typically 14'5"-14'6" (circa 4.42m) and there were Willowbrook bodies in the late 1970s/1980s which were closer to 14'9" (4.5m). It was the advent of low floor double decks that brought the overall height down a bit.

Also worth noting that UK bridges only require signing if the clear height is less than 16'6" (approx 5m).

I should probably have expanded on that.

4.2m is the maximum height permitted under the Road Vehicles Construction & Use regulations. Buses have an exemption up to 4.57m, but in practice the 4.2m is the de facto standard to avoid buses becoming tree collectors.

Still doesn't change the fact that the UK 'norm' is bigger than for the rest of the EU.

 

[Lx008]

Must say, as a resident of Edinburgh, I’m more than happy that out native Lothian has stayed well clear of the disastrous lightweight bus craze the rest of the country seems to be under. I will happily take the vast, very well kept and very comfortable fleet of heavyweight Volvos provided to us, especially for the long distance Lothian country / east coast bus services
A B8RLE is magnitudes better than any enviro could ever hope to be

 

[Man of Kent]

I should probably have expanded on that.

4.2m is the maximum height permitted under the Road Vehicles Construction & Use regulations. Buses have an exemption up to 4.57m, but in practice the 4.2m is the de facto standard to avoid buses becoming tree collectors.

Still doesn't change the fact that the UK 'norm' is bigger than for the rest of the EU.

I don't think that's right either. The 1986 regulations provided for a maximum height of 4.2m only for semi-trailers where "the total laden weight of the semi-trailer and the vehicle by which it is drawn exceeds 32,520 kg" [Regulation 9(2)(b)].

According to other sources, in one of the myriad of amendments since, that appears to have been rescinded, but the legislation.gov.uk website has not updated the original regulations (they still show maximum width as 2.5m, for example, as well as a length of 12m for a rigid vehicle). There is/was a European general height limit of 4m though (but other countries have exceptions, eg Ireland).

By the way, Wrightbus publicity shows the standard height of a Streetdeck as 4.395m.

 

[padbus]

I don't think that's right either. The 1986 regulations provided for a maximum height of 4.2m only for semi-trailers where "the total laden weight of the semi-trailer and the vehicle by which it is drawn exceeds 32,520 kg" [Regulation 9(2)(b)].

According to other sources, in one of the myriad of amendments since, that appears to have been rescinded, but the legislation.gov.uk website has not updated the original regulations (they still show maximum width as 2.5m, for example, as well as a length of 12m for a rigid vehicle). There is/was a European general height limit of 4m though (but other countries have exceptions, eg Ireland).

By the way, Wrightbus publicity shows the standard height of a Streetdeck as 4.395m.

Pre metrication, the maximum height for a bus in the UK was 15 flot which is 4.572 metres. In practice most full height buses were around 14 foot 6 inches (4.42 metres). I haven’t heard of any change but, if there was, it is not likely to have been widely publicised.

 

[Man of Kent]

Pre metrication, the maximum height for a bus in the UK was 15 flot which is 4.572 metres. In practice most full height buses were around 14 foot 6 inches (4.42 metres). I haven’t heard of any change but, if there was, it is not likely to have been widely publicised.

Yes, my previous reply wasn't wholly clear - the figures quoted for a bus's height here and in @mbonwick's message are indeed correct. It is other types that now appear to be unlimited.

 

[Numpt33]

The UK has (and had prior to Brexit) its own national bus vehicle Regulations (national small series) - I believe Ireland will also have a similar opt-out, which means that the standard double decker bus here in the UK and Ireland can't be run in Europe - double decker buses in Europe must have two staircases. The British Isles have specialised into deckers, Europe into artics. Passengers in the UK and Republic of Ireland generally pay something like the full cost of bus travel, Ireland has PSO bus routes which are subsidised, and the UK has supported services but neither country really has a low-fare policy subsidised by the local or central government.

The UK's and Ireland's buses are really designed to maximise revenue & passenger seating (I usually get city buses on the continent, and I usually have to stand, but there it isn't particularly noteworthy, unlike here), and minimise public expenditure. This (and fraudulent personal injury lawsuits) is why exit doors are only found on the TfL network, where fare-dodgers are TfL's problem, not the company's. More doors speed loadings, but mean fewer seats in the lower saloon and greater chance for fare-dodging. The trade-off seems to be "You'll either be standing, but hopefully on a shorter journey, or it'll take longer, but there's a 95% chance you'll get to sit for the whole journey".

Buses in Europe are mostly directly bought by the public sector - this means that EU public procurement (lawsuit inviting fair, open and transparent) rules apply, or indirectly through the franchise/concession model which produces the same effect. UK bus companies on the other hand can buy what they actually want. UK companies can build up relationships with their supplier, and negotiate accordingly - whereas transit authorities have to know exactly what they want and pray the competent the best supplier writes the best tender bid.

European manufacturers offer a highly standardised "off the peg" bus, whereas UK manufacturers are much better at accommodating creature comforts like seating with padding, recessed lighting, grab rails in colours other than grey, slightly longer, taller, or shorter vehicles and other details like that. The number of doors in the different places is a red herring IMHO, as is the LHD/RHD issue as vehicles don't have mechanical pedals/steering systems anymore - they're all electronic now and could theoretically be sited anywhere in the vehicle as long as type approval regulations permitted.

TLR UK and Ireland have made several policy choices which are completely different to Europe. This means our respective buses look radically different.

I would like to know if i'm the outlier who thinks that bus journeys in the UK are usually more comfortable than in Europe - purely because you can be reasonably confident you'll get a seat. I also wonder if anyone disagrees with me when I say that buses in the UK and Ireland feel less "government-issue" than abroad. Although I do remember buses from decades ago which were very much "here is a box on wheels and we've filled it with formica - what else do you want??!"