Why do so many people moan about the uk rail network?

[me123]

Just like the Northern 158 I saw at York on Tuesday evening, complete with seating and moquette as delivered when new in the early 1990s. I wonder how many people have urinated or been sick on those seats!

Probably not many.

But look at the old HST moquette that was (and maybe still is?) found on NXEC trains. Enthusiasts love it. I think it actually is from the 70s. And it's hideous in my opinion. I'm sure that puts people off travel. (That said, the seats are pretty darn comfy).

 

[clagmonster]

But look at the old HST moquette that was (and maybe still is?) found on NXEC trains. Enthusiasts love it. I think it actually is from the 70s. And it's hideous in my opinion. I'm sure that puts people off travel. (That said, the seats are pretty darn comfy).

The brown seat moquette was actually introduced in the early days of GNER, mid to late 1990s I think. I actually quite like it, and find the seats it was on more comfortable than the refurbs. The refurbs are a bit brightly lit for my liking too. That said, the old moquette was getting quite tired and worn, and did need replacing. Just personally, I think recovering/reupholstering the seats, and new carpets would have about done the trick, but that is just personal taste.

 

[me123]

As late as that? It really looks like something out of the 70s! Pretty hideous to me, but as you say fantastically comfortable seats.

I'd have wanted to keep the seats as well, clagmonster. At the very least I'd look to replace them with similar seats if at all possible. I don't mind the Mallard seats; I actually quite like them. But there's no comparison between them and the originals in my mind.

 

[thelem]

Does it look as old as this moquette? http://upmain.fotopic.net/p53614368.html

(Wikipedia)

 

[O L Leigh]

It's funny you should bring up the Cl378's, as that was precisely the thought that I'd also had.

As for the original question (ignoring a lot of the other fluff that has been discussed since, including Snapper's voting habits), folk moaning about the railways is nothing new. They've been doing this almost since the railways began and it seems to have almost nothing to do with the railways themselves.

Since joining the railway as staff I have discovered that there is one Golden Rule when it comes to the punters. And it is this: Whatever we do, it is wrong.

What I mean by this is that every Tom, Dick and Mary who has a season ticket is a greater expert on railway operations than the rail companies themselves. If they were in charge they would do this, that and the other differently; although it should be noted that this is simply motivated by the desire to make things better/easier for themselves.

O L Leigh

 

[90019]

What I mean by this is that every Tom, Dick and Mary who has a season ticket is a greater expert on railway operations than the rail companies themselves. If they were in charge they would do this, that and the other differently; although it should be noted that this is simply motivated by the desire to make things better/easier for themselves.

You could say the same about almost every industry though, a lot people seem to think that they can run everything better than the people who actually do run them can.

 

[O L Leigh]

Quite.

But would an investment banker take financial advice from me...? So why should I have to take the criticism of someone who probably feels the need to ask if there is a steering wheel at the front of the train.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

What I mean by this is that every Tom, Dick and Mary who has a season ticket is a greater expert on railway operations than the rail companies themselves. If they were in charge they would do this, that and the other differently; although it should be noted that this is simply motivated by the desire to make things better/easier for themselves.

O L Leigh

I'd like to modify the timetable to better suit my company's overly rigid working hours policy...

 

[delt1c]

What I mean by this is that every Tom, Dick and Mary who has a season ticket is a greater expert on railway operations than the rail companies themselves. If they were in charge they would do this, that and the other differently; although it should be noted that this is simply motivated by the desire to make things better/easier for themselves.

O L Leigh

Does that I mean I can drive the train next week

 

[O L Leigh]

I'd like to modify the timetable to better suit my company's overly rigid working hours policy...

Does that I mean I can drive the train next week

See...? See what we have to put up with?

O L Leigh

 

[Dennis]

What I mean by this is that every Tom, Dick and Mary who has a season ticket is a greater expert on railway operations than the rail companies themselves. If they were in charge they would do this, that and the other differently; although it should be noted that this is simply motivated by the desire to make things better/easier for themselves.

O L Leigh

Hmmm...public service provider listening to the needs of it's customers. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[O L Leigh]

There's one thing listening to the reasonable requests of the travelling public and trying to provide a good service for them all, but it's something else altogether when those reasonable requests become unreasonable demands for the impossible or merely impractical. If I felt there was any point in trying to explain to these people why they can't always have things there own way I would, but sadly my experience is that the majority of them have neither the patience or understanding for what I'm saying to sink in. Hence; whatever we do, it is wrong.

An example: The wires have come down at Cheshunt and the WA services are in disarray. Fine, the punters can generally understand this concept. Smart Alec wanders up to a member of staff and asks "Why can't we take that train, then...?", pointing at a stabled Cl170. Let me list the reasons.

1 - A dewirement means a possession. Repairs cannot be made while trains are running.
2 - No WA crews "sign" Cl170's.
3 - No GE/Mainline crews "sign" the WA routes.
4 - Cl170's are not cleared for DOO on the WA routes due to the amount of "look back" working required.
5 - Any crew taking this unit will be "off diagram".
6 - Taking the unit will mean that it also will be "off diagram".
7 - Taking the unit will also mean that the service(s) it's supposed to form will be cancelled.
8 - Running a single 3 car unit in lieu of the entire WA timetable is like putting a plaster on a severed artery.

I could go on. All of these are very good reasons why the answer would have to be "no", but in my experience the punters don't want to know. All they can think is that the wires are down so they can't run electric trains, but surely a diesel would be fine.

On a more prosaic level, a train delayed or cancelled due to no driver could mean any number of things. The driver could have been delayed on an inbound working. Perhaps the inbound working failed. Maybe the driver was late getting the booked break and is still to complete it.

How about trains leaving precisely to time? Surely everyone loves a punctual train? Well, not those who come dashing onto the platform just as the doors slide shut. For some reason they can't understand why they're being left behind. Why can't we open the doors again and let them on (even as the train is moving beyond the end of the platform).

This is what I mean. It's the unreasonable demands of the travelling public that make our job so difficult and, just ocassionally, unpleasant. We do our jobs to the best of our abilities and yet all that seems to happen is that we get it in the neck. Whether we go precisely on time or wait for the tardy few there will always be someone unhappy with it.

Why didn't you wait for me? Why did you delay the departure? It all boils down to the same thing. Why am I being inconvenienced?

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

I agree. I think it's often confused between listening to the needs of customers, and balancing that with actually what is practical or possible. The real world is about balance, shades of grey, resources, money, people's fears and desires, their limits and talents and many other factors. From the outside, its not always possible to gauge exactly why things happen or the practicalities. This applies to any industry, not just the railways. But obviously it doesn't stop people, oh if I was in charge, I'd do this, it's simple. Or making out its company X doesn't care, because spotty teenagers put a load of supermarket trolleys on the line and a whole train wasn't charted for themselves. Not politically correct to say, but its true. Most companies want your custom, but none have unlimited resources and mistakes are made.

Although, this is not to say customer input is not valuable or there aren't better or smarter ways of doing things. I must stress that. And there are examples of bad customer service in the railways as there are elsewhere.

I do think some parts of the media present things in very simplistic ways sometimes, which doesn't help. No wonder Brits are the most angry in Europe, on average getting angry 4 times per day!

 

[jopsuk]

Actually, one change I would make is to end the "Doors may be closed up to thirty seconds/one minute before departure" things. It is confusing- especially as the working timetable could be modified to take the doors into account, surely? The public departure time should be the time the doors are closed at. The time the train starts to roll doesn't matter to us.

 

[Metroland]

Well there's a classic example of why the customer doesn't always see the practicality!

The reason that rule is applied is to ensure that trains are ready to depart at their booked time and trains are not losing 30 seconds at each stop with passengers running to train late - which is what happens in the real world. If you start to close the doors early, there is more chance of a right time departure should any hiccups occur.

If a train has 30 stops and loses 30 seconds at each stop, it ends up being 15 minutes late.

From an operating point of view prompt departure is critical at busy locations, else the knock on effect of one train leads to delays elsewhere. There is a certain amount of recovery time built in, but delays soon multiply with even the smallest delays here and there.

 

[90019]

Well there's a classic example of why the customer doesn't always see the practicality!

The reason that rule is applied is to ensure that trains are ready to depart at their booked time and trains are not losing 30 seconds at each stop with passengers running to train late - which is what happens in the real world. If you start to close the doors early, there is more chance of a right time departure should any hiccups occur.

If a train has 30 stops and loses 30 seconds at each stop, it ends up being 15 minutes late.

From an operating point of view prompt departure is critical at busy locations, else the knock on effect of one train leads to delays elsewhere. There is a certain amount of recovery time built in, but delays soon multiply with even the smallest delays here and there.

I think what he means is display the departure time to passengers as the time the doors close, rather than when it leaves. i dont think it would be too difficult for the departure boards in a station to take 1 minute off each time

 

[me123]

Best notice ever at Glasgow Central:

"Train doors will close 60 seconds before departure to ensure a prompt departure. Please note that platforms may be announced up to 30 seconds before departure".

I can see passengers being a bit annoyed at that one

 

[The Planner]

Actually, one change I would make is to end the "Doors may be closed up to thirty seconds/one minute before departure" things. It is confusing- especially as the working timetable could be modified to take the doors into account, surely? The public departure time should be the time the doors are closed at. The time the train starts to roll doesn't matter to us.

It is taken into account, most WTT times dont reflect the PTT times at stations. The PTT column often has -1 or -½ in it.

 

[mumrar]

I think what he means is display the departure time to passengers as the time the doors close, rather than when it leaves. i dont think it would be too difficult for the departure boards in a station to take 1 minute off each time

So the problem is we say the train leaves at xx.xx but the intelligent traveller doesn't realise the doors have to be shut before we can do so. A comment on some passengers stupidity really. Should they list plane departures by your latest allowed check in time then? I think not. It all boils down to passengers not wanting to accept responsibility for missing a train which they can still see, that's what bugs them.

 

[Metroland]

Well we can debate whether we think passengers are daft or not. I think if we are honest most of us rush at the last minute sometimes, and it's human nature to push things to the limit sometimes.

30 seconds or a minute might not seem like much, but it can be the difference between a freight train getting a run or looped behind, or a conflict at a critical junction causing other delay, which passengers really hate.

The other thing is safety, in the days of slam door trains passengers used to open the doors and get in when the train was beginning to move and injure or kill themselves, even now some rush, and have bad accidents. If you say there is a 30 second cut off, there are less likely to chance it if they see a train in the platform.

It's already been pointed out there is a WTT and public times anyway.

Besides I don't think 30 seconds is too much to ask, some airlines ask you to check in 40 minutes before departure else not only will you not fly you will not be given a refund either. In theory, at least on the trains you can still turn up a few minutes before and buy a ticket and get on with seconds to spare when you want.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The better way t do it was how it was done at Paddington.

Trains will cease to be advertised 60 seconds before departure and doors may be locked up to 30 seconds before departure to ensure a prompt service.

 

[me123]

They do that at Glasgow Queen Street. Then they stick it back up again for some reason just as it's departing :? It works rather well with barriers, because then people don't end up going through them and have to come back.

 

[jon0844]

I think it would be fair at the starting station to adjust the public timetable to show a departure 1 minute early. This will enable the doors to be shut 1 minute 'early' and actually have up to 60 seconds to leave on the working timetable. Of course, you might then get people moan that the train isn't moving straight away!! And I guess it also means a 1 minute longer journey on the timetable, technically.

When FCC tried, for a short while, to despatch trains early from King's Cross platforms 9-11 (so not just locking the doors, but allowing trains to leave 30-60 seconds early) they were being threatened left, right and centre. Now it seems they've gone back to normality - and trains still seem to leave on time, give or take 5 seconds either side of the minute. With KGX having those screens along platform 8 regularly not working (and I don't believe it's to stop crowds at peak times as they're up and down at random throughout the day and night), and platforms being announced very late - often just a couple of minutes - people must have been finding it very hard to make their departure if they weren't waiting by 9-11 already but were on the main concourse. And what of disabled people who were unable to walk fast or run?