Why does the barcode on e-tickets have to be shown?

[Deerfold]

Try buying an inbounday weekly Travelcard on paper

There's a point there, but the other option isn't a barcode on a phone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean the same challenges everyone else faces and manages?

With all types of ticket. Needing three hands (luggage, coffee and ticket) is just a problem with gatelines, not barcodes.

 

[Deerfold]

With all types of ticket. Needing three hands (luggage, coffee and ticket) is just a problem with gatelines, not barcodes.

Had that one at High Wycombe yesterday, with the wide gate set to only allow people out of the station - great fun with a large suitcase on the way in (and no sign of the barrier being manned, though it may have been observed from somewhere).

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are pushing it, but this post on X confirms that if people decline they should be given a paper receipt. (Image shows a post from NewLookHelp basically saying the above, and apologising if this wasn’t offered).

If I buy something of low value from a shop I’d much rather a paper receipt, than have to give my email and start getting spam emails. A new tv from John Lewis might be a different matter.

I agree on that. Totally happy to use e-tickets, indeed they are very much my preference. I am not, however, happy to hand over my email address when shopping in a physical shop, as it is not necessary to have those details. The exception is if a decent loyalty scheme is provided, i.e. they are paying me for the data and the right to use it.

Had that one at High Wycombe yesterday, with the wide gate set to only allow people out of the station - great fun with a large suitcase on the way in (and no sign of the barrier being manned, though it may have been observed from somewhere).

There are two gatelines there, one on each side, so I expect they were at the other one. Not good though as a wheelchair user could not have entered.

Back to the original point, an e-ticket on my phone is better in the above context than CCST because I can just pull it out of my pocket with one hand (putting the coffee on top of the gateline as I do, then picking it back up once scanned), whereas taking CCST out of my wallet requires two.

 

[trainophile]

I always put my CCST just sticking out of the top of my bag before I get off the train. With one simple action I can then extract it and pop it into the slot, gate opens and I'm away. With a phone ticket I have to find the app, then find the ticket, then try not to drop the phone (we are talking £800+ worth of phone for a lot of people these days), then manoeuvre it to the scanner before it needs re-activating if there's a delay due to a lot of people exiting at the same time.

Goodness knows how people with a coffee cup as well as luggage manage.

 

[redreni]

I agree on that. Totally happy to use e-tickets, indeed they are very much my preference. I am not, however, happy to hand over my email address when shopping in a physical shop, as it is not necessary to have those details. The exception is if a decent loyalty scheme is provided, i.e. they are paying me for the data and the right to use it.



There are two gatelines there, one on each side, so I expect they were at the other one. Not good though as a wheelchair user could not have entered.

Back to the original point, an e-ticket on my phone is better in the above context than CCST because I can just pull it out of my pocket with one hand (putting the coffee on top of the gateline as I do, then picking it back up once scanned), whereas taking CCST out of my wallet requires two.

But you can fish out your CCST before you get off the train and keep hold of it using your front teeth until you reach the gateline! Trickier to do the same with a phone.

I must admit I often print out e-tickets (at my employer's expense - shh!) because if I'm watching Picard on my phone when the guard comes round to check tickets, I don't particularly want to have to pause it and fiddle around to bring up my e-ticket on the screen. I don't like having to toggle the auto-rotate setting for the gatelines, either.

I'm still very pro e-ticket over ToD, though, because ToD can be a bit of a disaster at times. The name of it is poorly chosen, for a start. There are a huge number of stations in GB with only one ticket machine, so it's just a bad idea to encourage peope to turn up there needing to print their ticket before travelling. No resilience whatsoever. The system works okay for me because I commute by train so will normally have dozens of opportunities to collect ToD tickets in advance of travel, but it's still not as convenient as having the things delivered electronically immediately after purchase. Many people would find collecting the tickets a few days ahead of time highly inconvenient, so they have very little time to do anything about it if they encounter problems when they do try to collect.

I've had TVMs issue tickets with absolutely nothing printed on them. I've had them print all but one of the tickets in the booking (which I didn't notice immediately, leaving me having to throw myself at the mercy of the guard on the day of travel). I've turned up at stations with no working TVM. Years ago, I bought tickets using a debit card which then expired before the date of travel, destroyed the card as per the bank's instructions not realising I would need it, then couldn't collect the ticket. It's a rubbish system.

E-tickets are just better and if anyone likes to have a physical ticket, they can always print out the e-ticket. Or buy a barcode ticket on bogroll stock from a ticket office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you can fish out your CCST before you get off the train and keep hold of it using your front teeth until you reach the gateline! Trickier to do the same with a phone.

I don't think I have ever in all my years of rail travel seen someone do that. And you will still need the hand to present it, just as you would if you did it with a phone.

I must admit I often print out e-tickets (at my employer's expense - shh!) because if I'm watching Picard on my phone when the guard comes round to check tickets, I don't particularly want to have to pause it and fiddle around to bring up my e-ticket on the screen. I don't like having to toggle the auto-rotate setting for the gatelines, either.

With most phones if you avoid holding it completely flat on the reader the rotation thing won't be an issue. But that you can print e-tickets if you prefer is certainly one of the strengths of the format. I print them sometimes if I think there's a risk of low battery, e.g. when I'm going camping, though normally I carry a power bank.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The reason I don't think it is, is because CCST fulfilment is permitted, so you could theoretically buy it from a TVM.

Sorry, what does CCST stand for?

 

[redreni]

Sorry, what does CCST stand for?

Credit card sized ticket.

I.e. fits in the credit card slots in a purse or wallet. (For those of us old-fashioned enough to carry such a thing around with us).

 

[The exile]

I don't think I have ever in all my years of rail travel seen someone do that. And you will still need the hand to present it, just as you would if you did it with a phone.

We’ve obviously never met!
Just out of interest, has anyone ever managed to get through a gateline using the barcode reader without breaking stride - as is (just) possible with a paper ticket?

 

[Brissle Girl]

In terms of an onboard inspection, let's look at the process.

The OP suggested that people might not have a phone or a printer. So that presumes that the 11 digit code will be handwritten. So they have to hand a scrap of paper to the inspector, and wait whilst they tap in the code. How long will that take - think about how long it takes at a TVM which is nice and big. And if the writing isn't that clear, it could take longer, or there be errors, and they have to start again. Alternatively, the person reads the code out - again, hardly a fast process. How long has that taken - 30 seconds at least I'd suggest.

Once the code is input, the machine needs to validate it. Without the Aztec code, will all the salient information be available, such as, time of purchase? Will it immediately flag up to say that a ticket isn't valid for some reason, say because the passenger is someone who actually does have a phone and bought it five minutes earlier when they saw the inspector at the other end of the carriage then put the phone away.

Alternatively, it's a quick ping that takes maybe a second to complete, and confirms (or not) the ticket is valid. You can see why the railway doesn’t want to offer the option when people who don’t want/can’t use e-tickets have another option.

 

[Deerfold]

In terms of an onboard inspection, let's look at the process.

The OP suggested that people might not have a phone or a printer. So that presumes that the 11 digit code will be handwritten. So they have to hand a scrap of paper to the inspector, and wait whilst they tap in the code. How long will that take - think about how long it takes at a TVM which is nice and big. And if the writing isn't that clear, it could take longer, or there be errors, and they have to start again. Alternatively, the person reads the code out - again, hardly a fast process. How long has that taken - 30 seconds at least I'd suggest.

Once the code is input, the machine needs to validate it. Without the Aztec code, will all the salient information be available, such as, time of purchase? Will it immediately flag up to say that a ticket isn't valid for some reason, say because the passenger is someone who actually does have a phone and bought it five minutes earlier when they saw the inspector at the other end of the carriage then put the phone away.

Alternatively, it's a quick ping that takes maybe a second to complete, and confirms (or not) the ticket is valid. You can see why the railway doesn’t want to offer the option when people who don’t want/can’t use e-tickets have another option.

The amount it slows down ticket inspections on LNER when I've got a CCST instead of an e-ticket (usually because of a cross-London transfer) is very noticeable, without the guard having to interect with their device at all.

 

[Bungle965]

Had that one at High Wycombe yesterday, with the wide gate set to only allow people out of the station - great fun with a large suitcase on the way in (and no sign of the barrier being manned, though it may have been observed from somewhere).

That’s a very dubious method of working, if the barrier isn’t manned it should be set to first come, first serve.
As you mention it makes customers life with luggage difficult however it is discriminatory against those in a wheelchair.

 

[Deerfold]

That’s a very dubious method of working, if the barrier isn’t manned it should be set to first come, first serve.
As you mention it makes customers life with luggage difficult however it is discriminatory against those in a wheelchair.

The smaller gate closed quite violently on my wife as she'd pushed her suitcase through first. But there wasn't anyone to complain to about that around.

 

[Bungle965]

The smaller gate closed quite violently on my wife as she'd pushed her suitcase through first. But there wasn't anyone to complain to about that around.

Yes that’s normal for Cubic gates, the gate only stays open so long as the beam from one side to the other is broken.
It’s common for stations to have posters advising customers to carry their luggage with them or use the WAG (Wide Aisle Gate)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes that’s normal for Cubic gates, the gate only stays open so long as the beam from one side to the other is broken.
It’s common for stations to have posters advising customers to carry their luggage with them or use the WAG (Wide Aisle Gate)

It does also mean that you actually have plenty of time to put your coffee down, get your ticket out of your wallet if using CCST, place it back in your wallet, put it in your pocket and pick up the coffee again. Does anyone know how long it will stay open if nobody passes through? Seems like a while.

 

[Bungle965]

It does also mean that you actually have plenty of time to put your coffee down, get your ticket out of your wallet if using CCST, place it back in your wallet, put it in your pocket and pick up the coffee again. Does anyone know how long it will stay open if nobody passes through? Seems like a while.

15 seconds, 30 for WAG.

 

[johntea]

Out of interest can guards pull up details of CCST data?

I purchased an advance ticket from a TVM at the weekend and received two tickets, an 'Advance Single' and 'Mandatory Reservation Coupon' (a perhaps slightly misleading title as this was a journey involving a couple of Northern services so certainly no luxury of seat reservations!)

In theory if I happened to have lost the reservation coupon (or left it in the TVM only expecting one ticket or thrown it in the bin thinking it was just a receipt) my Advance Single would be completely useless as it references the coupon for details of the services that my ticket is valid on, although in reality on board both services the guard didn't even ask for it upon producing the Advance Single!

But the Advance Single references coupon number 1234 so if the guard could bring up the details they could see the relevant data still

Not quite sure why they couldn't have condensed the 8 lines of text on the reservation coupon (xx:xx Northern, No seat reserved, From xxx, To yyy) into 2 lines onto the main ticket (Valid xx:xx Northern xxx to yyy)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Out of interest can guards pull up details of CCST data?

I purchased an advance ticket from a TVM at the weekend and received two tickets, an 'Advance Single' and 'Mandatory Reservation Coupon' (a perhaps slightly misleading title as this was a journey involving a couple of Northern services so certainly no luxury of seat reservations!)

In theory if I happened to have lost the reservation coupon (or left it in the TVM only expecting one ticket or thrown it in the bin thinking it was just a receipt) my Advance Single would be completely useless as it references the coupon for details of the services that my ticket is valid on, although in reality on board both services the guard didn't even ask for it upon producing the Advance Single!

But the Advance Single references coupon number 1234 so if the guard could bring up the details they could see the relevant data still

Not quite sure why they couldn't have condensed the 8 lines of text on the reservation coupon (xx:xx Northern, No seat reserved, From xxx, To yyy) into 2 lines onto the main ticket (Valid xx:xx Northern xxx to yyy)

Some Train Managers can

 

[Haywain]

Some Train Managers can

No they cant. They may, however, be able to check the details of a booking for ToD fulflment. I would advise being careful to retain both coupons when travelling though, as failure to do so may result in difficulties being encountered.

 

[redreni]

In terms of an onboard inspection, let's look at the process.

The OP suggested that people might not have a phone or a printer. So that presumes that the 11 digit code will be handwritten. So they have to hand a scrap of paper to the inspector, and wait whilst they tap in the code. How long will that take - think about how long it takes at a TVM which is nice and big. And if the writing isn't that clear, it could take longer, or there be errors, and they have to start again. Alternatively, the person reads the code out - again, hardly a fast process. How long has that taken - 30 seconds at least I'd suggest.

Once the code is input, the machine needs to validate it. Without the Aztec code, will all the salient information be available, such as, time of purchase? Will it immediately flag up to say that a ticket isn't valid for some reason, say because the passenger is someone who actually does have a phone and bought it five minutes earlier when they saw the inspector at the other end of the carriage then put the phone away.

Alternatively, it's a quick ping that takes maybe a second to complete, and confirms (or not) the ticket is valid. You can see why the railway doesn’t want to offer the option when people who don’t want/can’t use e-tickets have another option.

I doubt persuading somebody who has already paid a significant amount of money and can prove it that they have to pay again is any quicker tbh. But yes, I can see why they'd rather have the barcode and I don't support the OP's suggestion that just writing the 11 digit code on a piece of paper should be condoned.

I do think the option to accept proof of purchase in the absence of the barcode (e.g. the barcode didn't print properly, the screen on the customer's device is damaged, etc) should exist if the ticket can be verified by way of the 11 digit code.

 

[bcarmicle]

Perhaps a (clearly advertised) fee for printing an eTicket as a PRT if the customer has the code, available at both ticket offices and on board? Prevents people relying on it regularly but means that if your phone is about to die, you don't have to pay for a new ticket.

 

[TUC]

You tell people they need the barcode, but then you waive that requirement for customers who have paid more than a certain amount, provided you are able (with a little extra effort) to verify their ticket without the barcode. You don't need to tell people. You just do it.

Other businesses waive rules for their more valued customers all the time.

Who are you defining as the 'more v

Had that one at High Wycombe yesterday, with the wide gate set to only allow people out of the station - great fun with a large suitcase on the way in (and no sign of the barrier being manned, though it may have been observed from somewhere).

That raises an interesting question in terms of disabled access to the station too.

 

[island]

I know it's a totally different scenario but many people simply don't like having to cope with technology when life used to be so simple.

This has a lot less to do with "coping with technology" and than with not wanting to get signed up to marketing.

 

[Wallsendmag]

No they cant. They may, however, be able to check the details of a booking for ToD fulflment. I would advise being careful to retain both coupons when travelling though, as failure to do so may result in difficulties being encountered.

Oops misread the post.

Perhaps a (clearly advertised) fee for printing an eTicket as a PRT if the customer has the code, available at both ticket offices and on board? Prevents people relying on it regularly but means that if your phone is about to die, you don't have to pay for a new ticket.

You would print the eTicket as an eTicket PRT wouldn't come into it. Thats the whole point of eTickets and their advantage over mTickets.

 

[trainophile]

But you can fish out your CCST before you get off the train and keep hold of it using your front teeth until you reach the gateline! Trickier to do the same with a phone.

I must admit I often print out e-tickets (at my employer's expense - shh!) because if I'm watching Picard on my phone when the guard comes round to check tickets, I don't particularly want to have to pause it and fiddle around to bring up my e-ticket on the screen. I don't like having to toggle the auto-rotate setting for the gatelines, either.

I'm still very pro e-ticket over ToD, though, because ToD can be a bit of a disaster at times. The name of it is poorly chosen, for a start. There are a huge number of stations in GB with only one ticket machine, so it's just a bad idea to encourage peope to turn up there needing to print their ticket before travelling. No resilience whatsoever. The system works okay for me because I commute by train so will normally have dozens of opportunities to collect ToD tickets in advance of travel, but it's still not as convenient as having the things delivered electronically immediately after purchase. Many people would find collecting the tickets a few days ahead of time highly inconvenient, so they have very little time to do anything about it if they encounter problems when they do try to collect.

I've had TVMs issue tickets with absolutely nothing printed on them. I've had them print all but one of the tickets in the booking (which I didn't notice immediately, leaving me having to throw myself at the mercy of the guard on the day of travel). I've turned up at stations with no working TVM. Years ago, I bought tickets using a debit card which then expired before the date of travel, destroyed the card as per the bank's instructions not realising I would need it, then couldn't collect the ticket. It's a rubbish system.

E-tickets are just better and if anyone likes to have a physical ticket, they can always print out the e-ticket. Or buy a barcode ticket on bogroll stock from a ticket office.

That happened to me, the missing ticket from the printer. It was at Birmingham New Street, and likewise I didn’t realise until a couple of hours later. I knew I had collected them all, as the person I was with double-checked before we left the machine. When I realised I went to the ticket office, the counter assistant checked my booking confirmation and the tickets I’d received, but still made me buy a new one. By sheer luck, it was the cheapest of the three for my journey!

The one she printed does have a barcode on, so best of both worlds there.

Why can’t the confirmation email include the necessary barcode, so I’d just have to show that, which I could make a dedicated file for in my emails? It wouldn’t resolve all my issues e.g. the barriers but would at least avoid having to save the tickets into an app, be it Apple Wallet or my TPE account. I find the latter fiddly as it always requires me to log in when I open it.

If I’m going on a day trip with no luggage I do use e-tickets, I’m not a complete dinosaur! I tend to buy them on TPE though, as I find the Trainsplit system fiddly. Perhaps I don’t have the right version of the Trainsplit app, I will investigate.

How do printed e-tickets work at barrier scanners?

 

[Haywain]

Why can’t the confirmation email include the necessary barcode, so I’d just have to show that, which I could make a dedicated file for in my emails?

Is it really so difficult just to open the attachment?

How do printed off e-tickets work at barrier scanners?

Exactly the same as those on a phone.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why can’t the confirmation email include the necessary barcode, so I’d just have to show that, which I could make a dedicated file for in my emails? It wouldn’t resolve all my issues e.g. the barriers but would at least avoid having to save the tickets into an app, be it Apple Wallet or my TPE account. I find the latter fiddly as it always requires me to log in when I open it.

If I’m going on a day trip with no luggage I do use e-tickets, I’m not a complete dinosaur! I tend to buy them on TPE though as I find the Trainsplit system fiddly. Perhaps I don’t have the right version of the Trainsplit app, I will investigate.

How do printed off e-tickets work at barrier scanners?

Why not just request a ticket that you can to your phone wallet from the retailer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I’m going on a day trip with no luggage I do use e-tickets, I’m not a complete dinosaur! I tend to buy them on TPE though as I find the Trainsplit system fiddly. Perhaps I don’t have the right version of the Trainsplit app, I will investigate.

The Trainsplit app isn't great in my view, probably because implementing something that complex and full of features on an app is much harder than a website. I only use it for long distance trips, and if I am going to I sit down at the PC and use the website and spend the time to find the best value option for me.

It's Trainline for me for on the day purchases. No fee, quick addition to the Apple Wallet (two taps, no waiting for the email confirmation unlike the LNR/WMT app) and basic splits without having to buy the two bits.

 

[Deerfold]

I did once show the code on my laptop as my phone was just rebooting so it would have been slower to wait. It scanned just fine. Not the easiest answer for those not able to print or show on a phone, though.