Why does the Weybridge - Waterloo service have to wait at Virginia Water?

[Leight]

Yes, I know the answer is "to let the Reading - Waterloo service go first", but that's not what I'm asking.

Why doesn't the Weybridge - Waterloo just depart ~9 minutes later from Weybridge to avoid the dwell time at Virginia Water -- especially given that the train from Waterloo often arrives 20-25 minutes earlier at Weybridge than it is scheduled to depart again, meaning that there should be ample time for such a move?Or is there some other track restriction I'm missing?

Long time lurker, first time caller

 

[CarltonA]

That does allow you to leave the train and cross over in time to board the ex Reading service sometimes.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Yes, I know the answer is "to let the Reading - Waterloo service go first", but that's not what I'm asking.

Why doesn't the Weybridge - Waterloo just depart ~9 minutes later from Weybridge to avoid the dwell time at Virginia Water -- especially given that the train from Waterloo often arrives 20-25 minutes earlier at Weybridge than it is scheduled to depart again, meaning that there should be ample time for such a move?Or is there some other track restriction I'm missing?

Long time lurker, first time caller

If it departed 9 mins later then you'd hold up the next train into the bay, most of the time, meaning you'd need to push that back too, and then what else would you have to push back as a result??

The simple reason is pathing and the fact some customers use the train as a connection to catch the much faster Reading to Waterloo service, especially the school kids.

 

[davews]

When I change from the Reading-Waterloo to Weybridge-Waterloo via the loop train I normally do it at Staines or Feltham as it is same platform change rather than using the footbridge. For this of course I want the Weybridge train to leave second.
There must be loads of similar cases. Changing at Twickenham to catch the train towards Kingston you just miss one and have to wait half an hour. Guess you can't please everybody.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Why doesn't the Weybridge - Waterloo just depart ~9 minutes later from Weybridge -- given that the train from Waterloo often arrives 20-25 minutes earlier at Weybridge than it is scheduled to depart again,

Long time lurker, first time caller

I think that's your answer. If it left nine minutes later, the dwell time at Weybridge would be 29-34 minutes, which doesn't work with a single bay platform and a 30 minute frequency.

It also means there is some recovery time at Virginia water to ensure even if it leaves Weybridge lat it can slot in to its scheduled path between Virginia Water and the Whitton triangle.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

When I change from the Reading-Waterloo to Weybridge-Waterloo via the loop train I normally do it at Staines or Feltham as it is same platform change rather than using the footbridge. For this of course I want the Weybridge train to leave second.
There must be loads of similar cases. Changing at Twickenham to catch the train towards Kingston you just miss one and have to wait half an hour. Guess you can't please everybody.

I think that people were suggesting that the wait at Virginia water permits people arriving from the weybridge service to catch the faster train towards London.

There is one exception around 8am where the train from Weybridge runs ahead of the reading train

 

[Invincible]

I have a theory that the time table was done so there was no stop at Virginia Water then they realised there was only one platform at Weybridge (not 2), so the London bound train has to leave a few minutes early to let the Weybridge bound train in on the single platform, hence the long stop at Virginia Water.
How true this is only the timetable scheduler might know?

The downside is if the train from Waterloo on the mainline is delayed getting to Weybridge means the connection for the Addlestone and Chertsey stations train is not possible and a30 minutes wait.
Had there been 2 platforms on the Addlestone and Chertsey line then there would be a better connection.
Looking at Weybridge station this would be a major rebuild to get an extra platform.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The downside is if the train from Waterloo on the mainline is delayed getting to Weybridge means the connection for the Addlestone and Chertsey stations train is not possible and a30 minutes wait.
Had there been 2 platforms on the Addlestone and Chertsey line then there would be a better connection.
Looking at Weybridge station this would be a major rebuild to get an extra platform.

I have sometimes wondered why that service runs to Weybridge when a grade separated junction exists to allow it to run instead to Woking - which I imagine would be a lot more useful to many more people.

 

[The Ham]

I have sometimes wondered why that service runs to Weybridge when a grade separated junction exists to allow it to run instead to Woking - which I imagine would be a lot more useful to many more people.

Which leads to the question, could you run 3tph on the line but with a 20/40 split at Weybridge and the extra service running to Woking?

Of course the simpler option might be to shunt the service back out to another station (Virginia Water in terms of times from Weybridge might just be possible, as it's 12 minutes each way, however that does rely on there being capacity) which gets cut if needed to recover the timetable. However that gives you 4tph between Weybridge and (say) Virginia Water without needing more rolling stock, which would mean fairly good change times for whatever journeys are happening (although maybe slightly worse for some).

 

[driverd]

I have a theory that the time table was done so there was no stop at Virginia Water then they realised there was only one platform at Weybridge (not 2), so the London bound train has to leave a few minutes early to let the Weybridge bound train in on the single platform, hence the long stop at Virginia Water.
How true this is only the timetable scheduler might know?

If that were true, theres a whole team of train planners who should be made redundant.

Train planners aren't people from the street, who's only knowledge of the rail network arises when they finally ride a train to these places and go "bloomin 'eck, we thought there were 2 platforms at Weybridge?!"...

It's a highly specialised role with a team thats usually very well aware of the network. Thats not to say every train plan is perfect and some things might be overlooked, but I can assure you no one builds a timetable on such an elementary false assumption.

The downside is if the train from Waterloo on the mainline is delayed getting to Weybridge means the connection for the Addlestone and Chertsey stations train is not possible and a30 minutes wait.

Unfortunately you're never going to please everyone - sometimes you just have to wait!

 

[nw1]

I have sometimes wondered why that service runs to Weybridge when a grade separated junction exists to allow it to run instead to Woking - which I imagine would be a lot more useful to many more people.

It used to, for a time, back in the late 80s / early 90s.

For a time there was a pattern whereby alternate trains went to Weybridge and Woking. I believe this was from May 1988.

Furthermore, at one point (I'm fairly sure it was May 1989) the Woking service extended to Guildford, thereby providing a direct link between Guildford and Chertsey etc.

I distinctly remember using a variant of this service to travel from Guildford to Virginia Water for a walk round Windsor Great Park in early 1989, I believe from Woking - and returned on the same route from Egham.

I have to say I always thought NSE were pretty innovative in terms of trying out new service patterns. It was also in the same era (May 1988) when through Camberley line (ex-Guildford) to Waterloo services were re-introduced, in addition to a through Camberley line to Reading on the opposite half hour.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I have sometimes wondered why that service runs to Weybridge when a grade separated junction exists to allow it to run instead to Woking - which I imagine would be a lot more useful to many more people.

Running to Woking would use a path on the slows approaching Woking (and the fast, if the bay at Woking were to be used)

In any case, the bay at Woking is used by stopping trains running on the direct route from Waterloo via Walton on Thames

Using the bay at Weybridge means there are no conflicts with anything else

 

[30907]

I have sometimes wondered why that service runs to Weybridge when a grade separated junction exists to allow it to run instead to Woking - which I imagine would be a lot more useful to many more people.

I imagine the commuters (and London-bound travellers generally) of Chertsey and Addlestone would disagree.

 

[Leight]

I think that's your answer. If it left nine minutes later, the dwell time at Weybridge would be 29-34 minutes, which doesn't work with a single bay platform and a 30 minute frequency.

It also means there is some recovery time at Virginia water to ensure even if it leaves Weybridge lat it can slot in to its scheduled path between Virginia Water and the Whitton triangle.

After consulting RTT I believe you're right -- if say the 12:03 Weybridge - Hounslow - Waterloo left at 12:12 instead it'd collide with the terminating train which is scheduled to come in at 12:08.

I imagine the commuters (and London-bound travellers generally) of Chertsey and Addlestone would disagree.

Right, my experience is many people at Chertsey and Addlestone board the Weybridge to change for the faster service to Waterloo, some 20 minutes faster than the direct service to Waterloo even if you change at Virginia Water.

I'm not sure a Woking change wouldn't be faster if you managed to catch one of those trains that went directly to Waterloo, but Woking terminating services from the east do tend to pull into the bay platform which presents a bit of a walk to catch the mainline services.

 

[nw1]

An interesting quirk of fate is that I've used the Woking "branch" of the Chertsey line a good few times, but the Weybridge "branch" never.

Mostly engineering work diversions of various kinds, plus the above mentioned trip to Windsor Great Park.

The first time I ever travelled on a 119 DMU was that way as it happened. Sunday 5 December 1982, Reading to Gatwick services were diverted via Virginia Water (call, reverse) and Woking (call). It was dark so I couldn't see anything, but to this day it remains my only ever trip over the Wokingham-Ascot section.

Interesting to note that the line was a valid diversionary route for Reading-Guildford in those days and that WR DMUs could appear at Woking as a result. Don't think I've heard of this happening for a long time.

 

[181]

The 455s DID run to Woking on the route via Chertsey, but I don't recall if that was still running in 1993 (I recall using it in 1986)

Did Chertsey services to Woking really start as early as 1986? Not saying they didn't but I had it in my head that they began in 1988. They were definitely there by March 1989 as I used one.

You're right - I misremembered the date of the event that took place on the day I made that journey. It was in 1988.

For a time there was a pattern whereby alternate trains went to Weybridge and Woking. I believe this was from May 1988.

Furthermore, at one point (I'm fairly sure it was May 1989) the Woking service extended to Guildford, thereby providing a direct link between Guildford and Chertsey etc.

I distinctly remember using a variant of this service to travel from Guildford to Virginia Water for a walk round Windsor Great Park in early 1989, I believe from Woking - and returned on the same route from Egham.

(The first three of the above quotes are from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ike-between-surrey-and-london-in-1993.288643/, but I'm replying here as this discussion isn't relevant to the question asked by the OP of that thread).

My recollection is that a service via the curve between Addlestone and Byfleet and New Haw did indeed start in 1986 -- I'm sure I used it on the first Network Day in June 1986. I made a point of doing so as it was a novelty, but I'm sure it wasn't a one-off for the Network Day. As I remember it, the service ran between Staines and Woking, and was formed of a 2-EPB, which I think was normal for the Staines-Weybridge shuttle which had previously been the main service on the line through Chertsey. I can't remember what proportion of trains ran to Woking, but 1 tph Weybridge and 1 Woking sounds plausible.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I imagine the commuters (and London-bound travellers generally) of Chertsey and Addlestone would disagree.

They’re both quite working class places by Surrey standards so their passengers haven’t historically held as much sway as others from elsewhere. Plus change at VW or Weybridge for the fast.

 

[AA1986]

Hello everyone. I have a vested interest in this, having lived in Weybridge for a few years and have been meaning to ask for help in understanding some of the timetabling

Quirks of the timetable that are annoying:

The dwell time at Virginia water, as previously discussed, is a part of the timetable, except, between 17:40 and 19:10 when the timetable shifts from XX:03 /XX:33 with a dwell to XX:10 / XX:40 with no dwell. Clearly it can be timetabled some of the time but not all?

The 03/33 departure leaves a tight window for any connections arriving from Waterloo often leading to many people running through the very narrow crowded bridge and a scrum at the staircase leaving the platform

On Sunday the train turns right and terminates at Woking rather than left to Weybridge, have never understood why this change happens and it makes leisure travel very inconvenient, compounded by the absence of semi fast services to/from Waterloo.

Appreciate any responses!

 

[Leight]

Hello everyone. I have a vested interest in this, having lived in Weybridge for a few years and have been meaning to ask for help in understanding some of the timetabling

Quirks of the timetable that are annoying:

The dwell time at Virginia water, as previously discussed, is a part of the timetable, except, between 17:40 and 19:10 when the timetable shifts from XX:03 /XX:33 with a dwell to XX:10 / XX:40 with no dwell. Clearly it can be timetabled some of the time but not all?

The 03/33 departure leaves a tight window for any connections arriving from Waterloo often leading to many people running through the very narrow crowded bridge and a scrum at the staircase leaving the platform

On Sunday the train turns right and terminates at Woking rather than left to Weybridge, have never understood why this change happens and it makes leisure travel very inconvenient, compounded by the absence of semi fast services to/from Waterloo.

Appreciate any responses!

RTT shows that those departures actually have a scheduled 2-minute dwell time at Virginia Water, so they're still running on the "same" schedule: leaving 7 minutes late from Weybridge cuts the dwell at VW from 9 to 2 minutes. As to why this happens, I suspect it has to do with the semi-fast services that stop at Weybridge during the evening peak (1735, 1804, 1832) so the good people of Addlestone and Chertsey can make their connections.

This raises the further question of why don't they just run :10/:40 the entire day. I suppose the timetablers just wanted a more leisurely schedule? The 1840 service pulls in at 1815 which allows for only 5 minutes of leeway...

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...]

On Sunday the train turns right and terminates at Woking rather than left to Weybridge, have never understood why this change happens and it makes leisure travel very inconvenient, compounded by the absence of semi fast services to/from Waterloo.

Appreciate any responses!

On Sunday, the Waterloo - Woking stoppers run through to Guildford, so the Woking bay platform is unused. Therefore, the Chertsey trains can terminate at Woking instead.

However, I don't know which is the cause and effect though, i.e. is the original intention to send the Chertsey trains to Woking, and therefore, the Woking terminators are sent to Guildford? Or vice-versa.

 

[Craig1122]

I have sometimes wondered why that service runs to Weybridge when a grade separated junction exists to allow it to run instead to Woking - which I imagine would be a lot more useful to many more people.

There are very substantial numbers of students travelling to Brooklands College at Weybridge. Many more passengers either leave the station or change for London bound services than cross over and head towards Woking.

My recollection of the NSE era services is that they extended to Guildford off peak only and were only hourly however it's a long time ago and I may have misremembered. Similarly for a while the off peak service was an hourly Staines - Weybridge shuttle.

As to the current Sunday service I would imagine the main reason it heads to Woking is to ensure drivers retain route knowledge for when the main line is closed, either for routine maintenance or during disruption. There are also fewer mainline services than Monday - Saturday so pathing conflicts aren't such an issue.

It should be noted that the Weybridge services combine with the Hounslow "rounders" during weekday peaks to give a 15 minute interval service Hounslow to Waterloo. (This was all day Mon - Sat pre covid). The Hounslow rounders in turn combine with the Kingston rounders to give a 15 minute interval peak stopping service between Twickenham and Waterloo. The Kingston rounders then mesh with the Shepperton branch to give a 15 minute interval Kingston -Waterloo. So any re-timing of departures from Weybridge impacts the whole suburban timetable. The current connections at Weybridge and wait at Virginia Water aren't ideal but I suspect were the best that could be delivered given all the above constraints.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 04:02 ==

Changing at Twickenham to catch the train towards Kingston you just miss one and have to wait half an hour. Guess you can't please everybody.

They do connect quite well with Windsor trains. Given the Windsor/Reading trains are roughly every 15 minutes but Kingston is only every 30 it's always going to be a connection with one or the other unless the Kingston frequency is increased

 

[TEW]

RTT shows that those departures actually have a scheduled 2-minute dwell time at Virginia Water, so they're still running on the "same" schedule: leaving 7 minutes late from Weybridge cuts the dwell at VW from 9 to 2 minutes. As to why this happens, I suspect it has to do with the semi-fast services that stop at Weybridge during the evening peak (1735, 1804, 1832) so the good people of Addlestone and Chertsey can make their connections.

This raises the further question of why don't they just run :10/:40 the entire day. I suppose the timetablers just wanted a more leisurely schedule? The 1840 service pulls in at 1815 which allows for only 5 minutes of leeway...

If they ran at xx10/xx40 all the day the arrivals at Weybridge would have to be later, breaking the 5 minute connection towards London Waterloo via Surbiton.

 

[nw1]

(The first three of the above quotes are from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ike-between-surrey-and-london-in-1993.288643/, but I'm replying here as this discussion isn't relevant to the question asked by the OP of that thread).

My recollection is that a service via the curve between Addlestone and Byfleet and New Haw did indeed start in 1986 -- I'm sure I used it on the first Network Day in June 1986. I made a point of doing so as it was a novelty, but I'm sure it wasn't a one-off for the Network Day. As I remember it, the service ran between Staines and Woking, and was formed of a 2-EPB, which I think was normal for the Staines-Weybridge shuttle which had previously been the main service on the line through Chertsey. I can't remember what proportion of trains ran to Woking, but 1 tph Weybridge and 1 Woking sounds plausible.

It's possible yes, admittedly. I had 1988 in my head but maybe that's because a lot of improvements took place in 1988 and I bracketed this service with those other improvements.

I know it wasn't running in summer 1985, for sure, as I spent the day at Woking on more than one occasion that summer and don't recall any terminating services from the Staines direction.

Would it have been 2EPB as late as 1986 incidentally? I thought all South Western suburban services were 455s by then (I may be wrong though!)
I do know a few through peak services from Waterloo via Staines to Weybridge were 2EPB in 1985 though, as they detached off Reading or Camberley line services.

I'm fairly sure by the 1988/9 timetable the through service from Woking to Staines was already a through service to Waterloo via Hounslow.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As I remember it, the service ran between Staines and Woking, and was formed of a 2-EPB, which I think was normal for the Staines-Weybridge shuttle which had previously been the main service on the line through Chertsey. I can't remember what proportion of trains ran to Woking, but 1 tph Weybridge and 1 Woking sounds plausible.

The shuttle had been a 2EPB, but by 1986 I'm pretty sure EPBs were a thing of the past on the SW division. My recollection is of a 455 on the Staines- Woking service

 

[43096]

There is one exception around 8am where the train from Weybridge runs ahead of the reading train

Which regularly runs late and imports delay into the Reading service, as well as breaking connections from the Reading line to the Hounslow loop.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Train planners aren't people from the street, who's only knowledge of the rail network arises when they finally ride a train to these places and go "bloomin 'eck, we thought there were 2 platforms at Weybridge?!"...

It's a highly specialised role with a team thats usually very well aware of the network. Thats not to say every train plan is perfect and some things might be overlooked, but I can assure you no one builds a timetable on such an elementary false assumption.

Spot on.

Unfortunately you're never going to please everyone - sometimes you just have to wait!

From a (former) planner's point of view, the plan will seek to maximise travel opportunities for the maximum number of people. There will always be a few compromises (Kirsty A's) in a plan involving such a complex network as the one in question.

 

[181]

Would it have been 2EPB as late as 1986 incidentally? I thought all South Western suburban services were 455s by then (I may be wrong though!)
I do know a few through peak services from Waterloo via Staines to Weybridge were 2EPB in 1985 though, as they detached off Reading or Camberley line services.

The shuttle had been a 2EPB, but by 1986 I'm pretty sure EPBs were a thing of the past on the SW division. My recollection is of a 455 on the Staines- Woking service

My memory is that it was a 2-car slam-door unit of some kind, although I don't remember that leg as clearly as some other parts of the day (I'm still certain that I went to Byfleet and NH and not Weybridge, though). Perhaps it was a 2-HAP, or maybe I've just conflated it with earlier journeys on the Chertsey line.

 

[Idiotic]

Maybe wrong on this but also wasn’t part of the reason for the dwell time is from when the Hounslow loop used to have rounders all day? This then created an even 15 minute gap around the loop.