Why does West Coast Main Line only keep its minor stations among intercity lines from London?

[miklcct]

There are 4 main domestic high-speed intercity lines out of London, Great Western Main Line, West Coast Main Line, Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line. Among these lines, only West Coast Main Line retains the minor stations that it remains possible to travel along the line for the length using only regional trains, with cheaper fares available by avoiding Avanti West Coast services.

In contrast, minor stations beyond the outer commuter service boundary have all been scrapped on the other lines, which means there are no longer any non-intercity services beyond Didcot on Great Western Main Line, Kettering (formerly Bedford before introduction of EMR Connect) on Midland Main Line, and Peterborough on East Coast Main Line.

What's special on the West Coast Main Line that local rail services haven't been withdrawn there beyond the London commuter area?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...Among these lines, only West Coast Main Line retains the minor stations that it remains possible to travel along the line for the length using only regional trains...

In the context of this thread, can you give some examples of what you consider to be "minor" stations along the WCML?

 

[RT4038]

There are 4 main domestic high-speed intercity lines out of London, Great Western Main Line, West Coast Main Line, Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line. Among these lines, only West Coast Main Line retains the minor stations that it remains possible to travel along the line for the length using only regional trains, with cheaper fares available by avoiding Avanti West Coast services.

In contrast, minor stations beyond the outer commuter service boundary have all been scrapped on the other lines, which means there are no longer any non-intercity services beyond Didcot on Great Western Main Line, Kettering (formerly Bedford before introduction of EMR Connect) on Midland Main Line, and Peterborough on East Coast Main Line.

What's special on the West Coast Main Line that local rail services haven't been withdrawn there beyond the London commuter area?

The simple answer is - an accident of history and geography. The local stations between Wolverton and Rugby were shut, but electrification resulted in the Northampton loop becoming a substantial 'regional' train service. I have no idea why the Rugby-Stafford local train service wasn't withdrawn during the Beeching era [although some stations had shut] - possibly the commuter flows to the heavy industries in the area(?) and the mainly four tracking meaning no impediment to faster trains? (But that is mere speculation). The Birmingham 'branch' from Rugby just happens to be in that geographical location with the Northampton loop.

So what makes the WCML special is the particular distribution of towns/cities/infrastructure which is not found in the quite the same way on the other lines you mention. (There is nothing similar to the proximity of Northampton with both London and Coventry/Birmingham - if Northampton was on the main line I suspect a different pattern of service may have emerged!)

I don't believe it is possible to travel by 'regional' train from Crewe to Warrington, and for quite some years it was not possible to travel by regional train from Rugby to Nuneaton, and only rarely from Nuneaton to Stafford. The current regional service along the Trent Valley line is a relatively recent phenomenon, taking advantage of infrastructure that only survived by accident (or restored/built in an upgrading programme)

 

[Starmill]

I don't believe it is possible to travel by 'regional' train from Crewe to Warrington.

It's not possible directly no, although the service to Wigan and Preston via Liverpool is quite adequate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ECML and GWML have services like the LNR Trent Valley local, they are just operated by the IC operator. On the ECML it's the York semifast, on the GWML it's the Exeter.

 

[30907]

Ans others have said, an accident of history alongside geography.

The "minor" stations on the Trent Valley route include Nuneaton which pre upgrade had a significant InterCity service, plus Tamworth and Lichfield which had a few alongside the occasional stoppers. Atherstone and Rugeley now benefit from the LNW service which is a result of the unachievability of the originally proposed upgrade, and both were significant towns; from memory other stations like Armitage closed (and there's Polesworth...).

As to geography, the GWR and GNR were simply not built to serve intermediate towns and villages - on the GW, Faringdon needed a branch line, Wantage a tram, Malmesbury was well off route...., while the GN goes through equally empty countryside (and again, Stamford was off route). The MR wasn't much better.

 

[Rescars]

Ans others have said, an accident of history alongside geography.

The "minor" stations on the Trent Valley route include Nuneaton which pre upgrade had a significant InterCity service, plus Tamworth and Lichfield which had a few alongside the occasional stoppers. Atherstone and Rugeley now benefit from the LNW service which is a result of the unachievability of the originally proposed upgrade, and both were significant towns; from memory other stations like Armitage closed (and there's Polesworth...).

As to geography, the GWR and GNR were simply not built to serve intermediate towns and villages - on the GW, Faringdon needed a branch line, Wantage a tram, Malmesbury was well off route...., while the GN goes through equally empty countryside (and again, Stamford was off route). The MR wasn't much better.

An alternative angle on this is to explore why the centre of a settlement drifted towards its railway station in some locations, whilst in others it did not. There are a number of places around the country where the current town centre is close to where there is or used to be a station, whilst the earlier settlement (frequently now prefixed with "Old....") lies at some distance, often up or down a hill.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The answer, in a word, is "Birmingham".
No other main line has a mega-city on (or just off) the main route about 120 miles from London.
So the regional operator has a decent area to concentrate on, which just happens to parallel much of the main line (and serves Northampton).

Another factor is the "one operator per London terminal", which was applied to Paddington and Liverpool St in the second franchise round.
That's why GWR (formerly FGW and Thames) has a monopoly at Paddington, and GA (formerly WA/GE/Anglia) at Liverpool St.
That policy was never applied at Euston, or at King's Cross for that matter, which has regional trains out to Peterborough.
And while LNWR has trains all the way (with changes) to Liverpool, it doesn't serve Preston or Manchester.
(Its predecessor did reach Preston once a day but was soon withdrawn).

There have also been proposals for a regional train Crewe-Carlisle, partly to allow fast services to miss smaller stations, but it has never made it to a franchise spec.
Doubtless the cost is too great, and the intermediate towns would object at the loss of fast through services.
TPE and Northern provide regional services north of Wigan/Preston.
At one time FNW had a Chester-Warrington-Wigan-Preston-Blackpool service, but that was only there to get 175s to/from Chester depot.
If ever Golborne station opens, there would have to be some kind of local service, but more likely to go to Manchester or Liverpool than Crewe.

 

[Magdalia]

There are 4 main domestic high-speed intercity lines out of London, Great Western Main Line, West Coast Main Line, Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line. Among these lines, only West Coast Main Line retains the minor stations that it remains possible to travel along the line for the length using only regional trains, with cheaper fares available by avoiding Avanti West Coast services.

In contrast, minor stations beyond the outer commuter service boundary have all been scrapped on the other lines, which means there are no longer any non-intercity services beyond Didcot on Great Western Main Line, Kettering (formerly Bedford before introduction of EMR Connect) on Midland Main Line, and Peterborough on East Coast Main Line.

What's special on the West Coast Main Line that local rail services haven't been withdrawn there beyond the London commuter area?

Look at population.

Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Stafford are all significantly bigger than Grantham, the biggest place on the ECML between Peterborough and Doncaster.

 

[LowLevel]

Look at population.

Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Stafford are all significantly bigger than Grantham, the biggest place on the ECML between Peterborough and Doncaster.

Though to be fair Grantham is a railhead for quite a large and affluent area, as well as being a busy junction station - much the same as Newark Northgate.

The geography of the 2 routes is just very different I think.

 

[urpert]

As someone who lives almost exactly halfway between Peterborough and Grantham, I regularly wish that Castle Bytham, Essendine or Tallington had stayed open (or that the ECML had taken a wiggle to serve Stamford). But as other posters have said, this really is quite an empty part of the country and there isn’t any reason to have ‘stoppers’ beyond the LNER all shacks and EMR Norwich-Liverpool (which is the only ‘slow line’ passenger service beyond Tallington Jn).

 

[Trainguy34]

The answer, in a word, is "Birmingham".
No other main line has a mega-city on (or just off) the main route about 120 miles from London.

Is nowhere near a megacity, but Lincoln comes in at around 130 miles on the ECML. Closest I can find is Bristol at about 118 miles but no main intermediate stops.

 

[The exile]

The only WCML stations where the question really arises are Polesworth, Atherstone and Rugeley TV. Nuneaton and Tamworth had interchange functions and Norton Bridge was only “coincidentally” on the real main line - the service was Birmingham - Stoke / Manchester. Presumably the traffic generated was enough to keep a few Stafford - Rugby locals going and emu acceleration combined with loops meant they didn’t hold up InterCity and freight traffic. Similar conditions didn’t apply on the other main lines.
It’s also worth remembering that what we ended up with is not necessarily what was intended!

 

[Flying Claret]

It's not possible directly no, although the service to Wigan and Preston via Liverpool is quite adequate.

Travel from crewe to Warrington via Liverpool? Or wigan?

Travel from crewe to Warrington via Liverpool? Or Warrington via Liverpool?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is nowhere near a megacity, but Lincoln comes in at around 130 miles on the ECML. Closest I can find is Bristol at about 118 miles but no main intermediate stops.

Since when has Lincoln been on the ECML?

 

[randyrippley]

The premise of the question is wrong in that it fails to recognise the existence of several express routes that were once regarded as Intercity but are now semi-fast
Paddington/Marylebone - Birmingham
Waterloo-Exeter/Weymouth
Liverpool St-Norwich

The comment re the WCML retaining slow trains is a nonsense as well - for instance between Preston and Carlisle there are something like 20 stations missing, removed to ensure virtually everything is express

==edited==
Bristol was a typo due to a senior moment. Now corrected to Birmingham

 

[Magdalia]

Since when has Lincoln been on the ECML?

In the original Great Northern Railway proposals Lincoln was on the ECML, which went via Boston.

But trains were only routed this way for a few years in the early 1850s, before opening of the direct route from Peterborough to Retford.

Lincoln gets to be on the ECML when there are diversions via the Joint Line.

The premise of the question is wrong in that it fails to recognise the existence of several express routes that were once regarded as Intercity but are now semi-fast

Liverpool St-Norwich

Liverpool Street-Norwich was always mostly a semi-fast railway. Lots of small stations north of Colchester were post-Beeching closures.

 

[The exile]

The premise of the question is wrong in that it fails to recognise the existence of several express routes ….

It also seems to put theory and principle ahead of practical reality (reminiscent of iron curtain central planning) in assuming that all main lines are the same (and also that nothing has changed in the 60 years since these decisions were being made)

 

[RT4038]

It also seems to put theory and principle ahead of practical reality (reminiscent of iron curtain central planning) in assuming that all main lines are the same (and also that nothing has changed in the 60 years since these decisions were being made)

I think you are being a little harsh. It is a perfectly legitimate question (even though some have taken it to be vaguely accusatorial), and there have been various reasonable answers to account for the differences.

It must be remembered that on the WCML proper (i.e. not the Birmingham 'branch'), the 'regional' train service between London and Crewe is only a recent innovation, really only enabled by the accident of history that various local stations survived (Atherstone, Tamworth LL, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV) with sparse services in the 1965-2005 era. If they hadn't, I think it unlikely to have happened. As it was, during this era, the number of regional trains north of Rugby was very sparse indeed. North of Crewe, there were very few local stations retained and where they are, they are not served by specific main WCML regional services as such.

Aside from the Southern Region lines, all of the other main lines out of London suffered similar closures outside of the London commuter area in one way or another, there being a blurr sometimes as to what is a regional train or not.

 

[Falcon1200]

Paddington/Marylebone - Bristol

Marylebone-Bristol??!!

Paddington/Bristol trains do stop at a number of stations en route, albeit the only one which is not either a major traffic centre or connectional location is Chippenham, however a service worked entirely by 125mph trains surely cannot be described as semi-fast!

 

[The exile]

Marylebone-Bristol??!!

Paddington/Bristol trains do stop at a number of stations en route, albeit the only one which is not either a major traffic centre or connectional location is Chippenham, however a service worked entirely by 125mph trains surely cannot be described as semi-fast!

And the Didcot - Bristol (both stations) sections are probably the classic example of a line shorn of its local stations for the benefit of Intercity services - assisted by the fact that even after 60 years of growth, there are probably only three places that the line actually passes through that could justify a reopening campaign (I'm thinking of Royal Wootton Bassett, Corsham/Box and Saltford - where in each the stumbling block has so far been practicality rather than low demand).

I think you are being a little harsh.

Apologies if so - it wasn't meant to be.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

there are probably only three places that the line actually passes through that could justify a reopening campaign (I'm thinking of Royal Wootton Bassett, Corsham/Box and Saltford

Also Wantage/Grove, and arguably Swindon Eastern Parkway too (can’t remember what the original halt was called, but something near the A419/M4 would do massive numbers these days).

 

[randyrippley]

Marylebone-Bristol??!!

Paddington/Bristol trains do stop at a number of stations en route, albeit the only one which is not either a major traffic centre or connectional location is Chippenham, however a service worked entirely by 125mph trains surely cannot be described as semi-fast!

typo
should have been Birmingham

doh!

 

[Starmill]

Travel from crewe to Warrington via Liverpool? Or wigan?

If you were travelling between Warrington and Crewe you'd just use Avanti West Coast because the fare isn't even set by them and isn't so expensive as it could be. If you were going further north and wanted a choice of cheap Advance tickets this would be feasible is what I was saying.

 

[Rescars]

The premise of the question is wrong in that it fails to recognise the existence of several express routes that were once regarded as Intercity but are now semi-fast
Paddington/Marylebone - Birmingham
Waterloo-Exeter/Weymouth
Liverpool St-Norwich

The comment re the WCML retaining slow trains is a nonsense as well - for instance between Preston and Carlisle there are something like 20 stations missing, removed to ensure virtually everything is express

==edited==
Bristol was a typo due to a senior moment. Now corrected to Birmingham

There are, or have been, quite a number of express routes, built either as competitive routes or for traffic which no longer exists. Where these lines remain operational they no longer see express services, diversions excepted. As examples, Settle-Carlisle and the GSW main line. Is the Cotswold Line semi-fast? It's certainly a long time since Worcester enjoyed a non-stop service from Paddington.

 

[The exile]

Also Wantage/Grove, and arguably Swindon Eastern Parkway too (can’t remember what the original halt was called, but something near the A419/M4 would do massive numbers these days).

Yes - but neither of those really fulfils the criteria of places the line actually passes through (at least that's not what the Swindon East example would be for now). That's important in the context of questions about why the original stations did not survive. For most of the intermediates between Didcot and Bath / Bristol Parkway the answer is that at the time they were in the middle of nowhere and didn't actually serve many of the local traffic flows anyway (this is long before the days of mass "rural area to urban centre" commuting) . This is unsurprising as it wasn't what the line was built for. In the case of Wantage, I would imagine that what people couldn't do / get in Wantage itself they would go to Abingdon or Oxford for. Likewise I would imagine that demand from Stratton St Margaret / South Marston would have been low to anywhere but Swindon itself - probably mostly to the works and therefore bringing zero revenue to the railway. Different now, of course.....

 

[Trainguy34]

Since when has Lincoln been on the ECML?

Via the ECML, as opposed to MML and other EMR services.

 

[nixcails]

There are 4 main domestic high-speed intercity lines out of London, Great Western Main Line, West Coast Main Line, Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line. Among these lines, only West Coast Main Line retains the minor stations that it remains possible to travel along the line for the length using only regional trains, with cheaper fares available by avoiding Avanti West Coast services.

In contrast, minor stations beyond the outer commuter service boundary have all been scrapped on the other lines, which means there are no longer any non-intercity services beyond Didcot on Great Western Main Line, Kettering (formerly Bedford before introduction of EMR Connect) on Midland Main Line, and Peterborough on East Coast Main Line.

What's special on the West Coast Main Line that local rail services haven't been withdrawn there beyond the London commuter area?

Isn't this a legacy of the old London Midland Region and the fact that Network SouthEast used to run through to Birmingham New Street even though the official boundary was Long Buckby.
Meanwhile Regional Railways ran from Birmingham New Street to Crewe and onward to Liverpool and North Wales.
Most other Mainlines had a clear gap between NSE and Provincial/Regional Railways. For example the Grantham to Doncaster section of the East Coast Mainline was exclusively intercity as was the GWR from Bedwyn and Didcot Parkway.

 

[plugwash]

I don't believe it is possible to travel by 'regional' train from Crewe to Warrington,

Indeed, the LNWR services turn off towards liverpool at Acton Bridge and the Northern and TPE services don't pick up until Wigan leaving a gap with only Avanti services.

To get between Crewe/Warrington/Wigan using regional trains you would have to head to or at least towards liverpool or Manchester.

 

[The exile]

Isn't this a legacy of the old London Midland Region and the fact that Network SouthEast used to run through to Birmingham New Street even though the official boundary was Long Buckby.
Meanwhile Regional Railways ran from Birmingham New Street to Crewe and onward to Liverpool and North Wales.
Most other Mainlines had a clear gap between NSE and Provincial/Regional Railways. For example the Grantham to Doncaster section of the East Coast Mainline was exclusively intercity as was the GWR from Bedwyn and Didcot Parkway.

Goes back a lot further. These lines were after all designed principally as long-distance arteries (mostly for freight) so local traffic was a minir consideration. If you look at a map of the GWML west of Didcot you’ll notice that it passes east- west through an area where most of the bigger roads are running north south, and ignores the local centres of Abingdon, Wantage, Marlborough and Calne completely. There would have been few established local flows along the line of route to tap into and (other than Swindon) little reason for any to become established until you reach the Chippenham - Bath - Bristol section. The ECML similarly avoided traditional centres like Stamford and the line of the A1, whereas the wcml and the A5 (with its established traffic flows) keep pretty close company. It’s probably only since about the 1960s and the rise of Motirways and (ironically) InterCity rail that those centuries old traffic flows have list their significance.