Why doesn’t GWR run up to Birmingham or at least cover all of Worcestershire?

[dk1]

Virgin XC wanted to operate Paddington-Birmingham via the Golden Valley using shortened HSTs to be christened ‘Challenger’ sets.

 

[swidnod]

Hi Gang;

I see the benefit in extending GWR services to Bromsgrove to link in to WM electric services (or possibly further to King's Norton/Birmingham NS but capacity may be an issue). But I would do it from the Padd - Cheltenham services with a stop at Worcestershire Parkway to give the alternate connection to Worcester/Evesham line. It would probably need an extra IET to allow an hourly service in the diagrams to extend the Cheltenham terminators..and obviously, they would be early casualties in times of disruption

Later;
Swidnod

 

[Eskimo]

Virgin XC wanted to operate Paddington-Birmingham via the Golden Valley using shortened HSTs to be christened ‘Challenger’ sets.

Did that not happen then? Always thought it had operated as it was on some of the XC service maps.

 

[dk1]

Did that not happen then? Always thought it had operated as it was on some of the XC service maps.

No, it never came to anything. Apart from diversions XC never operated Didcot-Swindon-Cheltenham. All Paddington-Birmingham & beyond services went via Banbury.

 

[CptCharlee]

Was there not ideas floating around of a GWR London Paddington to Birmingham Moor Street service years ago or something relating to post HS2 or the Bordesley Chords?

 

[The Planner]

Was there not ideas floating around of a GWR London Paddington to Birmingham Moor Street service years ago or something relating to post HS2 or the Bordesley Chords?

Kidderminster.

 

[jimm]

In the NSE Thames & Chiltern era that preceded privatisation, there were through trains with turbos from Paddington to Birmingham New St via Worcester as shown on hondawander website

165115 Evesham 17 May 1993

www.hondawanderer.com

One from Birmingham to Paddington in the morning and one back in the evening, as an experiment - and they were dropped after a brief period of operation, because there precious few passengers from north of Droitwich to places past Worcester.

 

[172007]

One from Birmingham to Paddington in the morning and one back in the evening, as an experiment - and they were dropped after a brief period of operation, because there precious few passengers from north of Droitwich to places past Worcester.

Don't forget that in those days a bun fight over distribution of tickets would also occur making it difficult.

2024 and management contracts with a common fare pot makes running services such as this a lot easier.

 

[The exile]

Hi Gang;

I see the benefit in extending GWR services to Bromsgrove to link in to WM electric services (or possibly further to King's Norton/Birmingham NS but capacity may be an issue). But I would do it from the Padd - Cheltenham services with a stop at Worcestershire Parkway to give the alternate connection to Worcester/Evesham line. It would probably need an extra IET to allow an hourly service in the diagrams to extend the Cheltenham terminators..and obviously, they would be early casualties in times of disruption

Later;
Swidnod

Though that doesn’t address the issue of connectivity between the MetroWest catchment and intermediates north of Worcester.

 

[30907]

One from Birmingham to Paddington in the morning and one back in the evening, as an experiment - and they were dropped after a brief period of operation, because there precious few passengers from north of Droitwich to places past Worcester.

It goes back further - I don't have the details to hand, but sometime in the late 70s(?) there was a Paddington-Worcester-Birmingham-Paddington and vv. They were late morning/early afternoon, and were glorified positioning movements. Eliminating layovers at New Street and Shrub Hill allowed a better use of resources.
I don't think they stopped intermediately though.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

But even subsequent to this there were some workings between Paddington and Shrub Hill via Swindon to add to the mix. The network we have today does allow various options but priorities and preferences have changed over time and might very well do so again.

There still are! 2tpd Paddington–Swindon–Shrub Hill, 1tpd in the other direction, plus a random local that does Salisbury–Swindon–Shrub Hill because why not.

BR Times - Train Times & Station Platform Finder

Alternative journey planner featuring full schedule details including platforms and connection times, for every passenger train on the National Rail network.

www.brtimes.com

 

[swidnod]

Though that doesn’t address the issue of connectivity between the MetroWest catchment and intermediates north of Worcester.

Unfortunately, not everything can provide through opportunities, and with the existing to service to Worcester feeding the Droitwich/Kidderminster direction, then I feel that extending to Bromsgrove to provide another interchange is a better prospect.

Later;
Swidnod.

 

[Cross City]

As a Bromsgrove local, and Birmingham native It's very frustrating how weirdly Bromsgrove is connected.

Train links to other places in the county are poor (as are the buses) and while the service to Birmingham is excellent, Bromsgrove isn't in the n-Network zone, nor are you able to purchase an add-on to a network day ticket like you can for places like Rugeley or Leamington, despite being on the Cross City Line and receiving some of the most frequent service in the region.

I would welcome GWR here and would enjoy XC reinstating their stops towards Bristol or Cardiff.

I'd also like to see TfW extend their Cheltenham-Maesteg services up to BHM via BMV. Or maybe TfW taking over the Welsh half of XC's NOT-CDF route with WMT taking the BHM-NOT portion.

 

[Bartsimho]

As a Bromsgrove local, and Birmingham native It's very frustrating how weirdly Bromsgrove is connected.

Train links to other places in the county are poor (as are the buses) and while the service to Birmingham is excellent, Bromsgrove isn't in the n-Network zone, nor are you able to purchase an add-on to a network day ticket like you can for places like Rugeley or Leamington, despite being on the Cross City Line and receiving some of the most frequent service in the region.

I would welcome GWR here and would enjoy XC reinstating their stops towards Bristol or Cardiff.

I'd also like to see TfW extend their Cheltenham-Maesteg services up to BHM via BMV. Or maybe TfW taking over the Welsh half of XC's NOT-CDF route with WMT taking the BHM-NOT portion.

Surely if you're splitting NOT-CDF to be NOT-BHM then EMR would have it not WMT due to the EMR Regional depot being at NOT and allowing Burton to actually be served by the company that manages the station (a quirk because XC don't manage stations but are the only TOC to serve Burton-On-Trent)

 

[The exile]

Unfortunately, not everything can provide through opportunities, and with the existing to service to Worcester feeding the Droitwich/Kidderminster direction, then I feel that extending to Bromsgrove to provide another interchange is a better prospect.

Later;
Swidnod.

It's not simply about providing through opportunities, though - freeing up capacity on XC for truly long-distance passengers would be no bad thing. If necessary it could absorb the new stops on the Camp Hill line - meaning that the only section where extra paths need to be found is Worcester - Droitwich - Kings Norton (the Droitwich - Stoke Works single line section possibly being the killer...)

 

[Topological]

Surely if you're splitting NOT-CDF to be NOT-BHM then EMR would have it not WMT due to the EMR Regional depot being at NOT and allowing Burton to actually be served by the company that manages the station (a quirk because XC don't manage stations but are the only TOC to serve Burton-On-Trent)

IF giving the Nottingham to Birmingham New Street section of the present Nottingham to Cardiff train to EMR, then it would make sense to give all of CrossCountry''s present 170 operation (including Stansted Airport) to EMR.

Given all the interworking, and progressively smaller fleet of 170s that would still be used by CrossCountry, it makes less and less sense for CrossCountry to maintain any 170 services.

The Cardiff to Birmingham section being with TfW makes a lot of sense too. Though here you would need to get some more 197s on order because a microfleet of 170s at TfW would not make sense. These 197s could interwork with Birmingham to Holyhead and/or have ETRMS fitted to interwork with the Cambrian as needed.

 

[The Planner]

It's not simply about providing through opportunities, though - freeing up capacity on XC for truly long-distance passengers would be no bad thing. If necessary it could absorb the new stops on the Camp Hill line - meaning that the only section where extra paths need to be found is Worcester - Droitwich - Kings Norton (the Droitwich - Stoke Works single line section possibly being the killer...)

Its Stoke Works to Worcester due to the block sections between Droitwich and Worcester, as well as the single line.

 

[Bartsimho]

IF giving the Nottingham to Birmingham New Street section of the present Nottingham to Cardiff train to EMR, then it would make sense to give all of CrossCountry''s present 170 operation (including Stansted Airport) to EMR.

Given all the interworking, and progressively smaller fleet of 170s that would still be used by CrossCountry, it makes less and less sense for CrossCountry to maintain any 170 services.

The Cardiff to Birmingham section being with TfW makes a lot of sense too. Though here you would need to get some more 197s on order because a microfleet of 170s at TfW would not make sense. These 197s could interwork with Birmingham to Holyhead and/or have ETRMS fitted to interwork with the Cambrian as needed.

The thing is I don't know if I would give Stanstead to Birmingham to EMR purely because of areas of operation and depot locations. If you're happy with it being stabled towards Stanstead then I'd say Greater Anglia and just change the class on the route. If not then EMR probably makes sense but working or ECS from Eastcroft to Leicester or Birmingham to start with is a bit odd. EMR having the 170's makes sense from a maintenance perspective. I wonder who uses Peterborough for stabling because whoever does is probably the prime candidate for this route

I'd say some Bimodes might be starting to make sense on the route with wires Stanstead-Ely and the planned MML around Leicester. I can then very much see Ely-Peterborough and Leicester-Birmingham moving up the pecking order which having Bimodes working strengthens the case for to convince the purse strings to be opened

 

[The exile]

Its Stoke Works to Worcester due to the block sections between Droitwich and Worcester, as well as the single line.

In which case straight up the main line stopping at Worcs Parkway. Not quite as good for connectivity but still better than the current situation.

 

[Topological]

The thing is I don't know if I would give Stanstead to Birmingham to EMR purely because of areas of operation and depot locations. If you're happy with it being stabled towards Stanstead then I'd say Greater Anglia and just change the class on the route. If not then EMR probably makes sense but working or ECS from Eastcroft to Leicester or Birmingham to start with is a bit odd. EMR having the 170's makes sense from a maintenance perspective. I wonder who uses Peterborough for stabling because whoever does is probably the prime candidate for this route

I'd say some Bimodes might be starting to make sense on the route with wires Stanstead-Ely and the planned MML around Leicester. I can then very much see Ely-Peterborough and Leicester-Birmingham moving up the pecking order which having Bimodes working strengthens the case for to convince the purse strings to be opened

IF bimodes were ordered, then I could see why Greater Anglia would operate the service.

However, the Stansted diagram interworks with the Birmingham to Leicester, meaning that you would have bimodes running that too. It would be very strange to have Greater Anglia operate Birmingham to Leicester.

The issue of getting to/from Eastcroft can be solved reasonably straightforwardly by either designing the diagrams with an early morning Nottingham to Leicester leg, or interworking with some of the early Nottingham to Birmingham (or simply lengthening those to double units and splitting at New Street).

Some stabling at Leicester is possible, but then requires a bit more planning about which units out-stable. At the other end of the route any stabling would be away from depot too, so care is taken.

At least an ECS from Peterborough to Eastcroft works ok.