Why doesn't the US have bus deregulation?

[radamfi]

increasingly children going to 'out of catchment area' schools more than 3 miles away, who are then not entitled to free transport, and possibly no public transport option anyway.

Well, that didn't exist when I was a kid, so is a self-inflicted problem.

 

[Busaholic]

From what I've heard from work colleagues who grew up in other countries, Britain is particularly unusual in driving kids to school, even if they didn't have a free school bus. In some other countries it is considered "uncool", especially for teenagers, if your friends see you being taken to school by your parents. Even when I was a kid, only a minority of kids went to school by car even though by then we already had near universal car ownership.

At my school it was forbidden to arrive by car except when public transport had failed. Coming from a 'pleb' area on a bus, I and a few others were occasionally gathered up by a parent who both had a car and hadn't gone to work yet, and deposited outside said institution so that the Farage-like paid-for thick but posh kids could sneer at us.
Not that I ever resented it!

 

[markymark2000]

The American school bus system seems to be very well used and as I understand it almost all kids get some kind of school bus, and it is free. This must surely get a lot of cars off the road and parents driving kids to school is a significant cause of traffic congestion in Britain. So this looks like something that America does better than the UK.

I get all that and that is why I didn't sugest scrapping the free school buses. What I suggested is removing the specific YSB bus requirement and allowing normal service buses and coaches to run these services. The noticeable difference is the color on the outside and the road rules surrounding stopping for YSBs become obsolete (against the law to pass a YSB).

Hence they would have to be closer to the tendered rather than the commercial model in the UK. I believe a few cities have gone that way but it's one of the few industries that remains strongly unionized (even in the home of capitalism!), and the lack of established operators to bid is probably limiting it too.

I think I agree with you partly here but there is nothing wrong with some commercial routes in the mix. As I understand it, cities which have moved towards private companies have done so under a contract for all local buses to be ran under one company (not routes being tendered out individually) and that is one big thing.
Unionisation shouldn't be much of a concern since that is the case here in the UK. Most of the big operators have unions. I feel like in America, union issues may be a bit more well known and publicised but in the UK, union disagreements tend to stay local until something major happens and one side feels they need the publics support to back them up and force the other side to negotiate.

You must be careful not to assume that conditions in the US are the same as here. US transit drivers duties do not include breaks in the same way - essentially an equivalent of the UK domestic rule of an aggregate of 45 mins. break in 8 and a half hours is operated, with the longer layovers at off peak times making up for the lack of a break block.

The operators which I spoke to did explain that times could be changed easily but it wouldn't work out for the connections at the central hub and that is the reason for the layover and didn't mention any difference with the breaks. I suppose as per here, every operator there is different. Vehicle utilisation is poor though as you do have buses sat around for a long time at some layovers. They seem to have a London style utilisation with huge running times and lots of layover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get all that and that is why I didn't sugest scrapping the free school buses. What I suggested is removing the specific YSB bus requirement and allowing normal service buses and coaches to run these services. The noticeable difference is the color on the outside and the road rules surrounding stopping for YSBs become obsolete (against the law to pass a YSB).

Why break a system that demonstrably works?

 

[RT4038]

Why break a system that demonstrably works?

I'm certainly not sure what is trying to be achieved - how does changing the colour and design of American school buses make public transport attractive to entice people out of their cars? Bizarre! We are getting far from the original thread.

 

[markymark2000]

Why break a system that demonstrably works?

My question is for the students, does it matter if it's a YSB or coach or a service bus? The answer is fundamentally No.

Removing the YSB requirement and allowing closed school routes to be ran by normal coaches and buses means huge changes for operators. It opens up more money making opportunities which generally means there are savings for the schools since operator costs are spread out over more work. Some operators will choose to run local service between the schools as well. In the UK, an operator told me just a few years back 'I make a salary off schools. I only run the service stuff for pocket money', if that logic transferred over to the US, there could be a bigger commercial bus network.
If you go down the tendered bus route, as we have seen here in the UK, it's much cheaper for Local authorities to contract out 'between school' runs than it is for an all day bus.

The yellow school minibuses could be used on ring and ride between schools (as happens here in the UK). Again, cost savings for authorities and opens up opportunities for operators.


I'm not talking in riddles here, I can't see how what I am saying is being misunderstood. By making the law change with YSBs, you make cost savings and that means with the available budget, it allows bigger and better bus networks for much lower cost than at current.
Bigger bus networks encourage people to use the services
More people using the services is less people in cars.

 

[RT4038]

My question is for the students, does it matter if it's a YSB or coach or a service bus? The answer is fundamentally No.

Removing the YSB requirement and allowing closed school routes to be ran by normal coaches and buses means huge changes for operators. It opens up more money making opportunities which generally means there are savings for the schools since operator costs are spread out over more work. Some operators will choose to run local service between the schools as well. In the UK, an operator told me just a few years back 'I make a salary off schools. I only run the service stuff for pocket money', if that logic transferred over to the US, there could be a bigger commercial bus network.
If you go down the tendered bus route, as we have seen here in the UK, it's much cheaper for Local authorities to contract out 'between school' runs than it is for an all day bus.

The yellow school minibuses could be used on ring and ride between schools (as happens here in the UK). Again, cost savings for authorities and opens up opportunities for operators.


I'm not talking in riddles here, I can't see how what I am saying is being misunderstood. By making the law change with YSBs, you make cost savings and that means with the available budget, it allows bigger and better bus networks for much lower cost than at current.
Bigger bus networks encourage people to use the services
More people using the services is less people in cars.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think UK practice translates to conditions in the US very well at all. The Yellow school bus specification is so well entrenched that making such a fundamental change would be very difficult politically.
If there was demand for these off peak services (which in such a car centric country I would really doubt), the YSBs could be used on them anyway.

 

[markymark2000]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think UK practice translates to conditions in the US very well at all. The Yellow school bus specification is so well entrenched that making such a fundamental change would be very difficult politically.

If there was demand for these off peak services (which in such a car centric country I would really doubt), the YSBs could be used on them anyway.

Off peak services do better than expected sometimes. America already has a lot of them and a lot of rural, few days per week services which are comparable to the UK ones. The mindset from some UK operators of 'making a salary off schools, local service is pocket money' isn't yet translated into the US as commercial operator vehicles can't be used for both purposes. You either have a school bus or a service bus. If you want to do both, you need separate vehicles.

YSBs can't really be used since they are school buses and can generally carry the school districts names onboard. Yellow School Buses also have specific laws in place like you can't pass a yellow school bus at certain times due to protecting students (who it appears aren't very streetwise). If these buses were somehow permitted for other uses, you would have issues with the road traffic laws and there would either be confusion about when the rules apply or it would cause issues with people giving up on the rules as every bus might as well be a yellow school bus. There is a big difference for a reason and I feel that is one similarity between here in the UK and abroad. YSBs can only be used on school purposes (including school routes, swimming pool trips or school day trips), they can not be used on local service and I believe rightly so. I nearly forgot to mention that the disability regulations for local services mean that the YSBs wouldn't be compliant. You also have the issue with legroom (adults generally needing more legroom than those under 16).



That said, there is also already, extremely limited, evidence in some school districts where some transit agencies run 'tripper' services (the american phrase for school extras) and then run off peak services inbetween. This way of working isn't common though and I have only seen it in a few select areas so I get the impression it's a commercial risk and it's done to help out for kids who don't qualify for YSBs or done to help the school out and keep costs low). There has to be more explanation to this though or it would be more common. If anyone here is from America, it would be good to get some more details on this and why this way of working it isn't more common.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a bit confused why you think YSBs are the key to improving bus operations in the US. Yes, you get UK bus services, usually tendered rather than commercial, that operate using school buses between the two school runs, but these, typically hourly or less frequent and operating only between about 1000 and 1400, are hardly the root of bus operation success, they're just a cheap way to give somewhere that was otherwise unserved a "shopper service" typically for passholders and little more. They really are a tiny niche.

 

[Geordie driver]

Perhaps they don't have bus deregulation because they have more sense?

Or is our system where the industry is circling the plug hole seen as the right way forward?

London excepted. Regulation is ok for them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Or is our system where the industry is circling the plug hole seen as the right way forward?

To be fair, it's been circling the plughole since the mid 1950s

 

[RT4038]

To be fair, it's been circling the plughole since the mid 1950s

And since the mid 40s in the US!

 

[Harpers Tate]

Do we know that US buses are regulated?
Or is it simply that anyone can operate a service, but (in most places at least) nobody does so commercially because it wouldn't be a viable business; and thus it is left to the city/etc., to provide and fund one where they consider it appropriate?

 

[67thave]

There actually are a (very small) amount of bus operators which could be considered "deregulated", as they are not government-run nor do they receive any public subsidy. Almost all of them are concentrated in northern New Jersey.
ONE Bus (a subsidiary of Coach USA, and therefore formerly a Stagecoach subsidiary) in the Newark area and A&C in Jersey City/Bayonne are probably the most notable.

EDIT: I forgot that they lease their vehicles from NJ Transit (as someone below mentioned). They don't share the same fare structure, however (ONE Bus has a slightly higher base fare than NJ Transit, for instance).

 

[GusB]

Please keep thread on topic, and remember that if you do happen to disagree with something that another forum member has posted, there are polite ways to do so.

 

[asb]

Having worked for two of these companies in the early 2000s, the situation is a bit like the UK before deregulation, in that they hold specific route licences from which they may not deviate. The times are up to them, and the fares might be, or they may be held to match NJ Transit I'm not sure. The route infrastructure was provided by NJ Transit (or the Port Authority in the case of New York). It was a tough operating environment, and although some UK type things were trialled (like a little bit of route branding) I don't think they helped particularly. I was always bemused by the only way to get a timetable being to get it from the bus driver!

The other interesting aspect concerned the unions. The company had two different unions that followed generally similar protocols (such as "picks" for a fixed line of work instead of what we generally consider normal in the UK, which they called "wheels"). However, the big difference was that one union had negotiated a 20 minute unpaid break, and the other union refused it. The second union therefore got scheduled straight through!

 

[67thave]

Having worked for two of these companies in the early 2000s, the situation is a bit like the UK before deregulation, in that they hold specific route licences from which they may not deviate. The times are up to them, and the fares might be, or they may be held to match NJ Transit I'm not sure. The route infrastructure was provided by NJ Transit (or the Port Authority in the case of New York). It was a tough operating environment, and although some UK type things were trialled (like a little bit of route branding) I don't think they helped particularly. I was always bemused by the only way to get a timetable being to get it from the bus driver!

The other interesting aspect concerned the unions. The company had two different unions that followed generally similar protocols (such as "picks" for a fixed line of work instead of what we generally consider normal in the UK, which they called "wheels"). However, the big difference was that one union had negotiated a 20 minute unpaid break, and the other union refused it. The second union therefore got scheduled straight through!

That's another thing that really would be an obstacle to deregulation here in the States: unions. The transit unions, especially in the New York area, are notoriously powerful.

 

[LucyP]

And the other thing is low bus use. 86% of all USA transport miles are by private car. The rest by plane, train and bus.