Why don’t train conductors announce delays sooner?

[VItraveller]

last Wednesday, I was on an XC train, the 1635 from Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham New Street.
At about 10 to 6, me and a group of other Birmingham bound passengers all stood up and made our way to the carriage doors, and waited, and waited, and then waited some more.

Is end at about 6 o’clock, the conductor came onto Tannoy explained that there had been a delay as far back as Cheltenham spa. And apologised for the inconvenience of this and explain that it would be another 10 minutes.
What I don’t understand is why they didn’t announce the delay at Cheltenham spa, they knew about it in 25 minutes is not exactly a small amount of time, from my perspective, there’s really no disadvantage to announcing a delay, because if the train does manage to catch up, people would be relieved that they made it on time.
It’s not the first time this has happened for me on XC once I panicked, because I thought I’d missed my station stop, and had to contact them on messenger to see what was going on with the train which is not really ideal, especially when the Wi-Fi is as poor as it is.
It just shows a lack of communication.

 

[Western Gaffer]

According to RTT, the train was on time through and beyond Cheltenham and only started to suffer delays at or near Barnt Green, about 15 minutes out of Birmingham, when it would presumably have stopped between just after 1740 and 1752, so it should have been clear by 1750 that the train wasn't speeding towards New Street on time?

Realtime Trains | 1S55 1427 Plymouth to Edinburgh | 17/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S55 1427 departure from Plymouth to Edinburgh on 17/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Ashley Hill]

Guards dont always know the reason for a delay straight away. The reason is not always forthcoming but it doesnt hurt to apologise and say you will find out.

 

[Spartacus]

Nobody knew anything as the train was leaving Cheltenham Spa. A potential, though in the end unfounded, safety issue caused the train to be held, that was only discovered around 17:40, with the train back on the move around 17:53.

If you consider that a lot of communication has to take place, that the driver had to find out the reason for the delay, from people who are busy dealing with the reason for the delay and it's possible consequences, then pass the information to the guard, who may be busy with other duties, who then passes the information on to the passengers, that's actually a pretty quick response.

 

[The exile]

Presumably at the time you got up there had been no announcements about approaching New Street.

 

[LkmtvMetatarsl]

I've experienced delays twice in the past week, between South Milford and Selby, and between Leeds and Cross Gates, both due to broken down trains in front. Both conductors apologised and tried to explain the reason over the tannoy, then came down the train speaking to passengers. The delay on both turned out to be around 20 mins. I thought both of them did a cracking job.

 

[Undiscovered]

We do try to announce anything affecting journeys in good time.
As well as working out if we'll actually be delayed, or if we'll be let through a junction ahead of another train to make up time, there's a myriad of other things going on. Could be liaising with control regarding forward workings, meal breaks, working out ETA at the next station and which connections are now possible for other passengers moving on, etc.

I've announced that we'll be running 15 minutes late due to congestion at starting station and we've arrived at our destination bang on time, due to some signalling skulduggery! And then promptly been acosted by a passenger who's now waiting in the cold as they altered their taxi pick up. Sometimes, being a guard is truly a thankless task.

 

[Horizon22]

Sometimes it takes time for the delay to even be reported upwards to NR/TOC control & signallers. Let's say 5 minutes. Then the TOC needs to message all that out with a relevant reason and description so that might be a few more minutes. Then the guard will need to check the information and broadcast that out if they are doing any other tasks. All in all that's about 10 minutes (at best). So seems about what you've got.

Most guidance is to do an announcement within 2-5 minutes apologising for the delay but without any further information. If instead you were crawling to New St then it might have been awaiting an available platform ahead.

There's a myriad of factors that it might be involved in getting to the truth.

 

[Flange Squeal]

last Wednesday, I was on an XC train, the 1635 from Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham New Street.
At about 10 to 6, me and a group of other Birmingham bound passengers all stood up and made our way to the carriage doors, and waited, and waited, and then waited some more.

Is end at about 6 o’clock, the conductor came onto Tannoy explained that there had been a delay as far back as Cheltenham spa. And apologised for the inconvenience of this and explain that it would be another 10 minutes.
What I don’t understand is why they didn’t announce the delay at Cheltenham spa, they knew about it in 25 minutes is not exactly a small amount of time, from my perspective, there’s really no disadvantage to announcing a delay, because if the train does manage to catch up, people would be relieved that they made it on time.
It’s not the first time this has happened for me on XC once I panicked, because I thought I’d missed my station stop, and had to contact them on messenger to see what was going on with the train which is not really ideal, especially when the Wi-Fi is as poor as it is.
It just shows a lack of communication.

Obviously there is the example above that made you feel the desire to highlight this issue, but from the title of the thread you have clearly had multiple experiences of conductors (plural) leaving you in the dark during delays. Are your experiences all on one TOC/area, or have you found this to be an issue on a wider scale in other areas and other TOCs too?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just back from a (slightly) delayed journey towards Manchester Piccadilly (via Shrewsbury) with TfW. Train manager on the Crewe->Manchester leg was proactive in announcing that there was some fault with the train itself, which was causing the delay, and that if the delay occasioned was 15+ minutes at their final destinations, passengers would likely be eligible for 'Delay Repay'.

Realtime Trains | 1W60 1104 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly | 23/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 1W60 1104 departure from Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly on 23/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Topological]

Just back from a (slightly) delayed journey towards Manchester Piccadilly (via Shrewsbury) with TfW. Train manager on the Crewe->Manchester leg was proactive in announcing that there was some fault with the train itself, which was causing the delay, and that if the delay occasioned was 15+ minutes at their final destinations, passengers would likely be eligible for 'Delay Repay'.

Realtime Trains | 1W60 1104 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly | 23/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 1W60 1104 departure from Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly on 23/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Mildly off topic, but was that a 4-car? RTT shows two units on it from Carmarthen.

I do find that generally announcements about delays are ok. Not perfect, but then there are many reasons why delay information is not known. The delay announcements are better than the platform information systems that just add minutes randomly and display times that would be impossible to achieve given what RTT or live signal information (e.g. Traksy) shows.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Mildly off topic, but was that a 4-car? RTT shows two units on it from Carmarthen.

Yes, 4 car, certainly for latter part of journey.

 

[Towers]

Basic customer PA & announcements training (issued at DfT level nowadays) requires an announcement after 2-3 minutes, even if it’s merely to say that the guard is seeking further information. No announcement on a train stuck for 10 minutes is, bluntly, completely unacceptable, unless the guard is genuinely unavailable for some reason.

 

[ComUtoR]

Basic customer PA & announcements training (issued at DfT level nowadays) requires an announcement after 2-3 minutes, even if it’s merely to say that the guard is seeking further information. No announcement on a train stuck for 10 minutes is, bluntly, completely unacceptable, unless the guard is genuinely unavailable for some reason.

Do you therefore believe that an announcement saying "I have no idea what's going on" is professional and good customer service ?

 

[Via Bank]

Do you therefore believe that an announcement saying "I have no idea what's going on" is professional and good customer service ?

If they genuinely don’t know what’s going on? Sure. The usual sentence construction is something like “apologies for the delay, we’re trying to find out the reason and I’ll update you when I have more information, thanks for your patience.”

 

[ComUtoR]

For me it makes the railway look incompetent. As a Driver I am often the last person to know why we are delayed. Passenger access to the details is often far beyond what staff have access to. Some days I have opened the cab door to ask what the passenger knows because I'm totally blind to what's going on.

 

[Ashley Hill]

For me it makes the railway look incompetent. As a Driver I am often the last person to know why we are delayed. Passenger access to the details is often far beyond what staff have access to. Some days I have opened the cab door to ask what the passenger knows because I'm totally blind to what's going on.

Its embarrassing when a passenger asks why your train it terminating at so & so station and its the first you`ve heard of it!

 

[ComUtoR]

Its embarrassing when a passenger asks why your train it terminating at so & so station and its the first you`ve heard of it!

Yep. Having a passenger telling me where my train is or why I got terminated; frustrates me beyond belief

 

[Towers]

Do you therefore believe that an announcement saying "I have no idea what's going on" is professional and good customer service ?

A common sense announcement, simply to acknowledge the delay and let passengers know that someone is there, is good customer service yes. Hence why it is mandated.

For me it makes the railway look incompetent. As a Driver I am often the last person to know why we are delayed. Passenger access to the details is often far beyond what staff have access to. Some days I have opened the cab door to ask what the passenger knows because I'm totally blind to what's going on.

If you’re running with a guard they ought to update you of course, or you update them depending on who gets the info first. If you’re flying solo on a DOO then it’s probably not entirely reasonable to expect to be personally updated ahead of the public systems, given the limited facilities available to communicate one-to-one with a driver?

 

[ComUtoR]

Hence why it is mandated.

Mandated where

 

[RailExplorer]

Elizabeth Line / Overground have a TfL policy that an announcement must be made within 30 seconds of coming to a stand (e.g. red signal), or if held in a station longer than 90 seconds. Then further announcements every 2 minutes until back on the move. 30 seconds is a bit too rushed in my opinion - one minute would be far better and sometimes even that is unachievable on a DOO train when actually dealing with an issue on your train. And don't get me started on an announcement every 2 minutes -there is only so many times you can say "we are being held at a red signal" before it starts to sound silly. In all truthfulness, the drivers, which on the EL and Overground are the only member of staff onboard, are most likely the last to know what the cause of the delay is.

 

[BrokenSam]

Mandated where

First I've heard of that too?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Do you therefore believe that an announcement saying "I have no idea what's going on" is professional and good customer service ?

“Sorry for the delay. We are being held at a red signal and the driver is currently in contact with the signallers to find out the reason”, or something like it, is an announcement I’ve heard more than once.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Mandated where

It's certainly in the SQRs that the DfT do on TOCs. It's in our company literature too

 

[ComUtoR]

“Sorry for the delay. We are being held at a red signal and the driver is currently in contact with the signallers to find out the reason”, or something like it, is an announcement I’ve heard more than once.

I've made similar announcements hundreds of times.

It's certainly in the SQRs that the DfT do on TOCs. It's in our company literature too

It's in our literature too.

My issue is more about what it actually conveys. I don't think that making an announcement purely to say I have no idea is productive and may do the opposite of its intent. Telling people you have no idea may make them feel like they need to make a decision instead.

And don't get me started on an announcement every 2 minutes -there is only so many times you can say "we are being held at a red signal" before it starts to sound silly.

Exactly. Saying "I got no idea" over and over again just doesn't feel right to me and I don't think its helpful to the passenger either.

 

[Towers]

I've made similar announcements hundreds of times.



It's in our literature too.

My issue is more about what it actually conveys. I don't think that making an announcement purely to say I have no idea is productive and may do the opposite of its intent. Telling people you have no idea may make them feel like they need to make a decision instead.



Exactly. Saying "I got no idea" over and over again just doesn't feel right to me and I don't think its helpful to the passenger either.

It is a requirement of the current DfT announcement standards, along with various other items, which are audited via the various service quality regimes in place with NRC TOCs.

 

[Somewhere]

It's certainly in the SQRs that the DfT do on TOCs. It's in our company literature too

What's a SQR? Never heard of one of those

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's a SQR? Never heard of one of those

Service Quality Regime* if I recall. Often known as SQuiRe.

* R may not be Regime, but I think it is. Might be Reporting or something else similar.

 

[Somewhere]

For me it makes the railway look incompetent. As a Driver I am often the last person to know why we are delayed. Passenger access to the details is often far beyond what staff have access to. Some days I have opened the cab door to ask what the passenger knows because I'm totally blind to what's going on.

Trouble is as a driver, you cannot have anything useful with you which tells you what's going on. Those who are in a position to tell you, such as a signaller or control, are going to be too busy to contact each train.
If there's a guard they should have access to information, but that information isn't always particularly useful

 

[TUC]

For me it makes the railway look incompetent. As a Driver I am often the last person to know why we are delayed. Passenger access to the details is often far beyond what staff have access to. Some days I have opened the cab door to ask what the passenger knows because I'm totally blind to what's going on.

That's what I am conscious of. Why does it takes longer to advise staff of delays than the information being available to passengers?