Why don't double deckers in the UK have seat belts?

[GusB]

This is I believe the rule in London now, though I don't know how well followed it is, but far too many drivers seem to think it's a race, and it is not acceptable.

Evidence, please!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Evidence, please!

That it's the rule in London to stop unless you're sure that there isn't someone wanting it? See the Big Red Book, it's in there.

That too many bus drivers don't put enough effort into ensuring they are seen at stops, and instead just pull out to overtake? Clearly it is hard to evidence that unless I was to stand filming buses for an hour (and you'd see it happen several times at a number of stops I know in that time), but I'd suggest you try standing by the stops on Midsummer Boulevard in MK for about half an hour or so, or any stop on Wilmslow Road in Manchester, and you will see it. Any regular user of bus routes which have busy stops with multiple routes will have experienced it to some extent.

That "it's a race"? It's a figure of speech, not a definitive statement; I was referring to the above paragraph about not waiting at stops. But it's certainly true that pre-GPS the culture in many (often smaller) bus companies was "rag round as fast as possible for a longer break at the terminus". The Aylesbury mob were terrible for it (and wilfully missing out sections of route), I was reporting early running (often through Central Milton Keynes of more than 10 minutes) to the Council several times a week at one point.

I am strongly of the view that the London rule - assume someone wants your bus unless you can see for absolute certain that they don't - is the only sensible rule if the passenger is, as they should be, the primary priority.

 

[GusB]

That it's the rule in London to stop unless you're sure that there isn't someone wanting it? See the Big Red Book, it's in there.

That too many bus drivers don't put enough effort into ensuring they are seen at stops, and instead just pull out to overtake? Clearly it is hard to evidence that unless I was to stand filming buses for an hour (and you'd see it happen several times at a number of stops I know in that time), but I'd suggest you try standing by the stops on Midsummer Boulevard in MK for about half an hour or so, or any stop on Wilmslow Road in Manchester, and you will see it. Any regular user of bus routes which have busy stops with multiple routes will have experienced it to some extent.

That "it's a race"? It's a figure of speech, not a definitive statement; I was referring to the above paragraph about not waiting at stops. But it's certainly true that pre-GPS the culture in many (often smaller) bus companies was "rag round as fast as possible for a longer break at the terminus". The Aylesbury mob were terrible for it (and wilfully missing out sections of route), I was reporting early running (often through Central Milton Keynes of more than 10 minutes) to the Council several times a week at one point.

I am strongly of the view that the London rule - assume someone wants your bus unless you can see for absolute certain that they don't - is the only sensible rule if the passenger is, as they should be, the primary priority.

Where's the link to the Big Red Book then?

 

[miklcct]

* Another bus with the same number already stopped doesn't count - with most buses you can't see from the back that it's not turning short, for example.

Buses turning short also posed a problem in the past in Hong Kong, too many passengers did not look at the destination plate, because buses turning short only exist on a small handful of busy routes in the city centre.

And now, the bus companies do the following on short turning buses:

• Reverse the position of destination and number on the front plate, such that the number is on the left instead of on the right
• Put a large notice at the farebox
• Instruct the driver to speak out the destination when passengers are boarding
• Invert the colour on the side and back plates, but because it may be hard to read, now it adds a box around the number on the side and back plates.

This allows passengers to easily identify if it is a short turning bus even if they catch the bus from behind.

However, there are still situations where buses overtake the others on the same route lead to complaint. For example, at a well-known busy stop in the peak hours, the first bus overloaded but the second or third bus on the same route with capacity overtook it without stopping. One of the routes I use in the past were timetabled so badly to have departures from 3 termini running on 4 route variants in peak hour (1 regular route, 2 departing from later stops, 1 skipping some intermediate stops) as an attempt to cope with the huge passenger demand just before the bus goes on the motorway, and the timetable frequently results in 3 or even 4 buses bunching together once the variants joined.

That too many bus drivers don't put enough effort into ensuring they are seen at stops, and instead just pull out to overtake? Clearly it is hard to evidence that unless I was to stand filming buses for an hour (and you'd see it happen several times at a number of stops I know in that time), but I'd suggest you try standing by the stops on Midsummer Boulevard in MK for about half an hour or so, or any stop on Wilmslow Road in Manchester, and you will see it. Any regular user of bus routes which have busy stops with multiple routes will have experienced it to some extent.

This is a frequent occurrence in morebus here in Bournemouth and Poole. Drivers like to pull out and overtake other buses at bus stops even on a single carriageway with only one lane in each direction, especially on the routes m1/m2.

Also, I believe some drivers are not paying enough attention at the bus stops while the route is approaching the final stations. For example, in an evening, I was at Lansdowne wanting to go to Bournemouth town centre, and I saw a 13, a long distance route coming outside BCP to Bournemouth. I raised my arm and waved at it from a distance and the bus didn't show any sign of slowing down. Finally the bus driver saw me and stopped, but it was already ahead of the bus stop.

 

[route101]

Lothian have double doors on some of their double decker's and have contactless tapping. You only tap on, Id probably forget if you had to tap off. I do find it hairy on a country road on a double decker.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where's the link to the Big Red Book then?

Big Red Book - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London

I understand that you've just released a new version of the Big Red Book, the set of instructions or guidelines for all TFL bus drivers. Please supply it. Thank you Yours faithfully, Doug Paulley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

And the relevant section is on page 19:

19A typical journey

Serving the stop

(...)

2 Stop if anyone is waiting at the bus stop, making sure you check the area.
•Stop at any stop on your route if someone is waiting by, sitting down or has signalled to you
•Slow down while approaching the stop to check there are no customers waiting
•If there is any doubt, stop
•Look out for older and disabled customers, especially blind and partially sighted people. Remember that not all impairments or conditions can be seen

It doesn't seem to say open the doors any more (I'm near certain it did at one point) but that is rather de minimis to the point that the rule is that the driver must ensure people have seen the bus and have a decent opportunity to board it.

Lothian have double doors on some of their double decker's and have contactless tapping. You only tap on, Id probably forget if you had to tap off. I do find it hairy on a country road on a double decker.

People manage not to in countries where it is the norm - you get used to such things. Of course you have the motivation to tap out - you'll usually be charged to the end of the route if you don't.

Edinburgh and London are flat fare so tapping out is not necessary.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Don’t many countries restrict the speed of buses without seatbelts to 70 or 80 kph ?

90kmh In the UK I believe?

 

[notadriver]

90kmh In the UK I believe?

60 mph - but the X1 buses used on Norwich to Peterborough can do 62 mph and aren’t fitted with seatbelts. (Or toilets)

 

[carlberry]

60 mph - but the X1 buses used on Norwich to Peterborough can do 62 mph and aren’t fitted with seatbelts. (Or toilets)

There is no reference to seat belts on the UK government's speed limit page :
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Only that coaches over 12m have a limit of 60mph on motorways instead of 70mph.

 

[cnjb8]

60 mph - but the X1 buses used on Norwich to Peterborough can do 62 mph and aren’t fitted with seatbelts. (Or toilets)

In reference to the toilets, I imagine most passengers on the Excel use it simply to hop between the towns it serves (Norwich, Dereham, Swaffham, Kings Lynn, Wisbech, Peterborough), but I doubt they'd do the full Norwich to Peterborough route. So I don't think the Excel needs toilets

 

[Man of Kent]

There is no reference to seat belts on the UK government's speed limit page :
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Only that coaches over 12m have a limit of 60mph on motorways instead of 70mph.

Requirements for PSV seat belts are summarised on this page of the gov.uk website (which is too long to reproduce here, along with formatting issues on the tables):

Seat belts in minibuses, coaches and other buses

www.gov.uk