Maybe, but they lost nearly half a billion pounds s couple of years back, so making some profit now to pay back their debts would be the obvious thing to do. Especially if the market is willing to bear it.
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Why is Eurostar so expensive?
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Maybe, but they lost nearly half a billion pounds s couple of years back, so making some profit now to pay back their debts would be the obvious thing to do. Especially if the market is willing to bear it.
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Oh there's no doubt about that. Clearly people are willing to pay top dollar for what Eurostar are offering. Personally, I've had enough of going out of my way to travel abroad by train and now just take whichever option is most convenient.
Although there are people who don't want to pay top dollar and for whom the train is more convenient that flying.
Although I am in a very rare position as the train to Schipol is longer than my trains to Brussels (the connection is very reliable at Liege) and the onward travel when arriving in London means I can give reliable arrival times to my family in Hackney or Brighton. The flights from Maastricht airport would be worth it on price but they are only on Mondays and Fridays, which I can't always travel on.
dutchflyer
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Even higher surcharges on a pass is done by that SNCF for INTERnational trips-for which they use other names as TGV, mostly to Switzerland. I recall seen like >50€ for trips to Geneva or Bern/Zúrich (possibly this is for 1st?). So that the dedicated community-eurail forum always advises to get off last stop in FRance and then use local trains onward (for Gnv that would be Bellegarde-from where frequent local tram/trains go to the city over the border). As such SNCF is about the only main trainoperator who charges much more for passholders as the normal price for a seat-reservation (though by now that is nearly impossible to do without also buying ticket in FRance). The reason given is: if we would not do that, we would not accept any pass at all anymore. Other railways with near complete REServation-only systems (mostly Spain) now relent to other customer-fiendish measures.
For me main advantage using the train vs. plane from UK is much less need/preplanning on wat one can take on board (with no checked plane-luggage). But for the general ´passenger perception´ of the trip I found it is just as bad as taking an airplane-with all the waiting, queing, checking, cramped seats etc.
Cost of a passday + supplmt. is likely always higher for just a single trip LON-Par/Bru/Ams, but not if one also uses it for onward further connections. Even an overnight trip from BRU or Par is possible with just using the same passday-till arrival point next morning.
The other option would be much more expensive Interrail tickets, so the long distance high speed operators could get a greater quantity of money out of the share (somewhere closer to the average fares that the other punters are paying?). Would you really want that?
The operators also don't want fixed price Interrail tickets to be undercutting the higher priced tiers of their yield managed fares. I am not sure which 'other operators' you are talking about, but there are Interrail supplements/reservation charges to be paid on most high speed operators and some other international express services (such as Vienna-Venice). Perhaps those that don't are not major tourist routes with high peaks of traffic (and possibility of high Interrail use), or are just not as adept or desirous of maximising revenue yield, possibly because of it being only a niche use.
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And also if it's used to get to/and from London. Being able to get some use in the country of origin now really is rather useful.
Obviously dependent on where you live!
I suspect many passengers on Eurostar don't care if their ticket cost £3 or £300 as it'll be on business expenses anyway, and they will have certainly lost a lot of those sales during the pandemic!
Surprised they've found it isn't worth bothering with the direct service to Disneyland any more though, considering you would have full families of passengers coughing up for tickets and they always seemed pretty well used (perhaps more an issue with the logistics and staffing of border control?)
Surprised they've found it isn't worth bothering with the direct service to Disneyland any more though, considering you would have full families of passengers coughing up for tickets and they always seemed pretty well used (perhaps more an issue with the logistics and staffing of border control?)
Even if the passenger doesn't care the business might.
Though I think the reservation fee is the same as pre-Covid (so cheaper with inflation taken into account).
Many passengers on expenses are still price-conscious as they have budget managers keeping careful watch. However I'd also contend that Eurostar is not particularly business-dominated. Granted I don't use it at peak times, but it seems to have a reasonable amount of family travellers and leisure travellers. It's rare to see people working on the train, but quite common to see people grab a daytime beer from the bar car, for one instance.
But you'd need somebody with sales data or market research to know for sure.
Border formalities have certainly been cited. I also suspect that like many things, families have stopped visiting Disneyland in the same numbers as the cost of living pressures mount up.
BahrainLad
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Surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but Eurostar have recently gone on record to say they are limiting the supply of seats departing St Pancras (i.e. running fewer services than they could do / would like to do) in order to ease pressure on UK/French immigration. Stands to reason that if supply cannot meet demand then prices will rise.
Eurostar, are, however expanding immigration facilities at STP so perhaps this situation may improve but it's unlikely in the short term.
www.theguardian.com
Eurostar, are, however expanding immigration facilities at STP so perhaps this situation may improve but it's unlikely in the short term.
Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules
About 350 out of 900 seats normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels
Been mentioned a couple of times, not least here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-running-trains-with-empty-seats.242456/Surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but Eurostar have recently gone on record to say they are limiting the supply of seats departing St Pancras (i.e. running fewer services than they could do / would like to do) in order to ease pressure on UK/French immigration. Stands to reason that if supply cannot meet demand then prices will rise.
Eurostar, are, however expanding immigration facilities at STP so perhaps this situation may improve but it's unlikely in the short term.
Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules
About 350 out of 900 seats normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels
BahrainLad
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Yes I meant on this thread, because it would seem to directly answer the question as to why Eurostar is so expensive.
Rather than yet more rehashing of tunnel charges, public vs private ownership, subsidy, more competition from DB etc etc
Rather than yet more rehashing of tunnel charges, public vs private ownership, subsidy, more competition from DB etc etc
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Eurostar is expensive because their yield management software has decided that the fares they currently charge bring them the maximum profit they can obtain using the resources they have. They're a for profit company with very little regulation so can charge what they like.
That's basically it.
See also Avanti's outrageous Anytime fares - in the end, charging one person £350 is more profitable than charging three people £100.
BahrainLad
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Yes, and currently Eurostar's resources (i.e. terminal capacity) are limited. Cheap fares, particularly closer to travel, are few and far between.
One thing to point out is the value of Club Eurostar Points. It's always worth collecting them when you travel. And if you have an American Express card you can transfer their Membership Rewards points into the programme. As yet, Eurostar do not restrict the use of points in the same way that airlines do, so if there's a cash fare available there will always be a points fare as well. For example, on Friday the only trains with seats available in Standard want to charge £218 to go from London to Paris, or 750 Eurostar points.
One thing to point out is the value of Club Eurostar Points. It's always worth collecting them when you travel. And if you have an American Express card you can transfer their Membership Rewards points into the programme. As yet, Eurostar do not restrict the use of points in the same way that airlines do, so if there's a cash fare available there will always be a points fare as well. For example, on Friday the only trains with seats available in Standard want to charge £218 to go from London to Paris, or 750 Eurostar points.
Although charging 2 people £180 is more profitable than both options, even better if you can push them to £200 each. And that's the game Eurostar play - where is the tipping point?
Is it really so expensive? You can buy cheap ish tickets if you book carefully (around £100 each way which doesn’t seem too unreasonable for such a convenient method of transport). Obviously wanting tickets at popular times will cost more. Profiteering implies unfair/excessive profits, whereas Eurostar is simply charging what the market will bear.
Perhaps the rest of the UK railway should be doing similar in order to recoup lost revenue!
It's not too expensive if you're booking early, are flexible on travel times and dates and have a fair amount of luggage, but if you've got a narrow window to travel and only will need a weekend bag then flights from the Netherlands or France can often work out substantially cheaper overall.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, it is worthy of note that one of Europe's most frequent air routes (or rather set of routes) is London to Amsterdam. It's served from Gatwick, Luton and Heathrow by a multitude of airlines, each several times a day. And there's an hourly train service to Brussels from there.
Agreed - but if they are having to run some trains with empty seats, it will be the cheapest tickets - the ones that fill seats that they wouldn't expect to be able to sell at the higher prices - that are no longer available. So the reduced capacity does have some bearing on ticket prices.
In principle, having large debts to repay shouldn't alter what ticket policy brings in the most money - it just determines whether they can make a profit or not, and if so how big it is.
Of course it's not as simple as that because they are in competition with airlines who are in the same position. So everyone can put their prices up and still be competitive with each other.
And of course Schiphol is already part of the way from Amsterdam to Brussels. Admittedly not much.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Sorry, I forgot to add that there's also London City to Amsterdam, which isn't hugely less convenient to the actual City than St Pancras. And you might not be going to the centre of Brussels...
Yes, true.
Rock bottom headline fares seem to be disappearing in a lot of cases anyway, in the airline and hotel industry too - improved yield management software allows the right price for each seat/room to be worked out, and that needn't mean starting at £1 and going up to £299 in a crude fashion like it used to. Premier Inn's prices are now fairly static for given hotels and dates - they don't go up much nearer the time of the stay unless it's really getting full. Along similar lines several TOCs offer cheap Advances on the day on quiet trains, whereas in BR days to get a SuperApex required 14 days' advance booking, it was all much cruder.
Yes, true.
Rock bottom headline fares seem to be disappearing in a lot of cases anyway, in the airline and hotel industry too - improved yield management software allows the right price for each seat/room to be worked out, and that needn't mean starting at £1 and going up to £299 in a crude fashion like it used to. Premier Inn's prices are now fairly static for given hotels and dates - they don't go up much nearer the time of the stay unless it's really getting full. Along similar lines several TOCs offer cheap Advances on the day on quiet trains, whereas in BR days to get a SuperApex required 14 days' advance booking, it was all much cruder.
mike57
Established Member
A recent check on fares to get a budget for a holiday we are planning showed a significant decrease in fares through the day, with trains departing 10:00 being expensive and late trains departing around 18:00 being cheaper. This seemed pretty consistant across a range of dates. Obviously if your destination is close to a Eurostar endpoint you can take advantage of the lower fares, if you have a significant onward journey then your flexibility is limited.
There are still some bargains to be had, and some good value standard premier upgrades, but they are fewer than a couple of years ago.
If your onward travel involves SNCF then it is worth looking at SNCF for the whole trip including the Eurostar leg. Not sure how it all works but it seemed like we would save a few pounds on a Eurostar standard premier ticket + SNCF 1st over booking separately.
For the Disneyland crowd a change at Lille will probably still be preferable to Gare du Nord followed by RER A, particularly if travelling with children and/or significant luggage. Outbound it tends to be a same platform change, returning you have the security/border checks hassle, but its far less busy than Gare du Nord (Just ignore the particularly grumpy border staff at Lille Europe).
If you are booking through SNCF some of their offerings involve Lille Europe > Lille Flanders, bear in mind its a walk, probably 10 mins or so, similar to Euston to Kings Cross.
As far as I know Eurostar dont get any subsidies, and have to remain profitable. They also have a duty to shareholders to maximise those profits, and to be honest they have a captive market, yes there is competition from other modes of transport, aircraft/flying being the main one, but flying can be a pretty miserable experience, and if like us there are no international airports closer than a 90 min drive I cant justify flying to the Mrs (who absolutely hates it) with the 'its quicker' reason. For us the ability to take a 10 min walk to our local station and complete the journey with simple changes along the way justifies the extra cost of Eurostar
There are still some bargains to be had, and some good value standard premier upgrades, but they are fewer than a couple of years ago.
If your onward travel involves SNCF then it is worth looking at SNCF for the whole trip including the Eurostar leg. Not sure how it all works but it seemed like we would save a few pounds on a Eurostar standard premier ticket + SNCF 1st over booking separately.
For the Disneyland crowd a change at Lille will probably still be preferable to Gare du Nord followed by RER A, particularly if travelling with children and/or significant luggage. Outbound it tends to be a same platform change, returning you have the security/border checks hassle, but its far less busy than Gare du Nord (Just ignore the particularly grumpy border staff at Lille Europe).
If you are booking through SNCF some of their offerings involve Lille Europe > Lille Flanders, bear in mind its a walk, probably 10 mins or so, similar to Euston to Kings Cross.
As far as I know Eurostar dont get any subsidies, and have to remain profitable. They also have a duty to shareholders to maximise those profits, and to be honest they have a captive market, yes there is competition from other modes of transport, aircraft/flying being the main one, but flying can be a pretty miserable experience, and if like us there are no international airports closer than a 90 min drive I cant justify flying to the Mrs (who absolutely hates it) with the 'its quicker' reason. For us the ability to take a 10 min walk to our local station and complete the journey with simple changes along the way justifies the extra cost of Eurostar
You can't really make such a general statement. London-Brussels is still available for pass holders when the normal 2nd class fare is €155 and that's way above the cost of a pass day + reservation.
I think the pass holder reservations on Eurostar are pretty generous, especially when you compare to some international high speed routes that don't have the additional costs that Eurostar do.
I don't know enough about the infrastructure aspect of HS1 sale but it does look like the UK taxpayer dodged a bullet selling Eurostar. It appears the government sold fairly close to Eurostar's maximium value and then avoided shouldering about £200 million of covid related losses. Its early days for the merger but cross channel services are probably more suited to being part of a larger European HS opperation.
Flights are generally more expensive than before covid and part of that is airlines servicing and reducing debts built up during the pandemic. Its not unreasonable for Eurostar to do the same.
I was talking about their attitude to Interrail passholders. With the (dis)honourable exception of SNCF's ripoff cross-border TGV services, no other operator charges a passholder reservation fee that is so expensive. It goes against the longstanding principle of Interrail passes, which is that they are already valid tickets and so any reservations that are required should be easily obtainable and cost no more than a nominal fee. In other words, passholders should be treated as equivalent to walk-up ticket holders.
Eurostar's policy smacks of trying to have their cake and eat it - they receive their share of Interrail pass revenue, but still charge people a hefty amount extra when they have the temerity to try and use their passes. They also don't honour first class passes in first class, instead only allowing them to be used in Standard Premier. Even Avanti doesn't try and pull that sort of nonsense!
This is quite aside from the insupportable fact that publicly subsidised infrastructure (whose construction involved compulsory purchase of land, and people's homes being demolished) is being used primarily for private profit, rather than public good.
Agreed. Airlines costs have also gone up considerably. For most of the last year the price of Jet fuel has been broadly double the Pre Covid level. some airlines may have hedged well in the depths of Covid, however even then their hedges will be expiring. Ryanair‘s hedges for next year are nearly 50% higher in price than this year, and even with fuel prices falling their fuel bill will be substantially higher. (Fuel can comprise 30% of an airlines costs). What with this, and much increased staff costs, airline ticket prices are only going to go one way in the next year.
Fair point, apologies for quoting you out of context there.
That strikes me as a tricky one to argue specifically in relation to the railway, when you could say the same for haulage businesses or bus companies using roads, and even airlines using airports, historically; Concorde using the formerly publicly owned LHR springs to mind as the most extreme example!
Ultimately the infrastructure is there to facilitate travel, which has its own economic benefits. There should be no issue with private operators using said infrastructure to make a profit, otherwise we would likely have no cross channel “intercity” railway services at all.
Of course more (or even some!) rail based competition on Eurostar’s routes would be beneficial. Perhaps that will come in the future.
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Somebody's financed those losses and I suspect UK govt has, in some way, contributed to that. Although Eurostar are doing their best to eliminate smaller margins or loss-leaders like Kent.
Depends what you want. They may be able to achieve better utilisation of Stock or drivers on triangular diagrams, and it may even improve the viability of Eurostar operating into Germany, but it also switches the focus of the Network from a London Trunk route to a Brussels hub in a wider network. Only time will tell how this affects things.
Very true
I think the discussion re Interrail is verging into a different thread.
HS1 is being used primarily to stimulate economic activity with the UK's biggest trading partner group. There's already a substantial amount of unprofitable public good being provided in the form of Class 395 services, alongside the fact that having a private company contract NR to do all the maintenance is probably overall a better deal for the taxpayer than the DfT including it as part of the network grant.
On this point, every time anybody has made noise about competing with Eurostar, they've been throttled out (either by regulation or by market research). Until the UK government changes it's position on border controls taking place prior to boarding (which I can't imagine happening particularly soon in the context of the recent announcements) then I don't see how any serious competition will be launched against Eurostar. A Ouigo style operation won't be able to cover the security costs, another premium operator doesn't really shake up the market. The only people who had a real chance of competition were DB because they could offer the (then-)lucrative German business market as a base to compete on the Brussels-Paris leg, but alas, they have largely faded in their interest.
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