Why is it not a requirement to enter expiry date of railcard for ticket purchases?

[Railguy1]

When I use a credit or debit card online, I’ve always had to enter my expiry date of the card.

Why is the same practice not used for people making ticket purchases using a railcard? This would help a lot of people making innocent mistakes in forgetting to renew their railcard and would be trivial for most organisations to add an extra check in the forms in the booking websites. A similar change could be made for ticket machines albeit at a greater expense to rollout software or hardware changes.

 

[30907]

One reason is that you do not have to have a railcard to buy a ticket, only to use it.

 

[saismee]

One reason is that you do not have to have a railcard to buy a ticket, only to use it.

Well the ticket has a date too. Maybe it would be a good idea to require an expiration date so people don't forget to renew. This could also then warn passengers with open tickets that they can't travel after day X without renewing their railcard.

 

[Jan Mayen]

"You need a Railcard to use this ticket. Enter expiry date here dd/mm/yy"
If you don't have this, tick the 2nd box"
YOU HAVE TICKED THE SECOND BOX. GET A RAILCARD NOW!

Or words to that effect

 

[Watershed]

Essentially, there's no Rail Delivery Group (RDG) rule that currently mandates this so each retailer is free to make their website/app work as they see fit. Most probably think that it would introduce too much friction into the purchase flow, thus increasing the rate of abandoned searches/purchases.

Personally speaking, I don't think it should be necessary to specify the expiry date if a site doesn't store your last-entered Railcard. However, I do think it should be required if a site/app wants to remember this, since that's how people often overlook their Railcard expiring - the discount is applied automatically when they search for another journey, and they don't even realise it. The other thing that needs to happen is for there to be a standardised set of expiry warning(s) messages.

 

[saismee]

I don't think it should be necessary to specify the expiry date if a site doesn't store your last-entered Railcard. However, I do think it should be required if a site/app wants to remember this, since that's how people often overlook their Railcard expiring - the discount is applied automatically when they search for another journey, and they don't even realise it. The other thing that needs to happen is for there to be a standardised set of expiry warning(s) messages.

YES!!! Forgetting to renew is so unbelievably easy, there are ZERO warnings about travelling without a railcard on most apps. Most of them also require an account, so it should be mandatory that they require an expiration date to remember your railcard. The app could even then send an email or push notification to alert the customer a week in advance, that way they'll have enough time to renew by post or online.

I can't imagine a customer getting a penalty fare for buying a ticket because their railcard is out of date. The amount of honest and frequent travellers that are seen on here getting penalties or prosecutions + fines worth hundreds of pounds because of simply forgetting is unreal. Any time I help someone apply for a railcard or purchase a ticket, I ensure I remind them to check the expiry date as it is effectively a trap for unsuspecting customers. This should not be the way forward.

 

[Hadders]

YES!!! Forgetting to renew is so unbelievably easy, there are ZERO warnings about travelling without a railcard on most apps. Most of them also require an account, so it should be mandatory that they require an expiration date to remember your railcard. The app could even then send an email or push notification to alert the customer a week in advance, that way they'll have enough time to renew by post or online.

Many retailers already send emails, and I even get postal reminders for some of my railcards. But this does depend on the person not opting out of these sort of notifications.

I can't imagine a customer getting a penalty fare for buying a ticket because their railcard is out of date. The amount of honest and frequent travellers that are seen on here getting penalties or prosecutions + fines worth hundreds of pounds because of simply forgetting is unreal. Any time I help someone apply for a railcard or purchase a ticket, I ensure I remind them to check the expiry date as it is effectively a trap for unsuspecting customers. This should not be the way forward.

Naturally an online forum for railway ticketing disputes is going to feature examples of expired railcards. It's always frustrating if you forget to do something - renew a railcard, car park time runs out, forget to pay a bill - there are loads of life examples where people can be penalised.

An alternative view is we could all just take responsibility for making sure our railcards are in date before we board a train. Millions manage to do it successfully.

 

[saismee]

An alternative view is we could all just take responsibility for making sure our railcards are in date before we board a train. Millions manage to do it successfully.

While I do agree, I also think that this type of feature would be almost trivial to implement, and will certainly save one or two people from forgetting. Even though it doesn't affect most, there's still a few caught out and they usually have to fork over big sums for their journeys. In my opinion, that is the railway letting them down because there is a clear solution to prevent it. The whole railcard system is too vague while purchasing tickets on most apps - there's no explanation of what a railcard is when you attempt to add one. TVMs (Ticket Vending Machines) are also a hassle because people need to add the railcard after selecting the ticket, but that's more of a TVM issue than a railcard issue.

 

[mikeg]

Because one may want to buy tickets for the future, and buy the railcard in the future, thus ensuring no wasted validity. Why add on purchasing time for the rest of use to make up for the minority who can't be bothered to check an expiry date?

 

[saismee]

Because one may want to buy tickets for the future, and buy the railcard in the future, thus ensuring no wasted validity. Why add on purchasing time for the rest of use to make up for the minority who can't be bothered to check an expiry date?

As suggested above, this would only be for apps/websites that cache your railcard for future use. This wouldn't affect TVM purchases or guest account purchases. Buying a railcard in the future is certainly a point, but I also don't entirely see why you would purchase a ticket before a railcard... what if it doesn't turn up in time? If you're waiting for the card to arrive, why not just add a railcard with an expiration date of 1 year in the future?

 

[Hadders]

I also don't entirely see why you would purchase a ticket before a railcard... what if it doesn't turn up in time?

I purchased some very cheap Advance fares three months ahead of travel discounted with a Two Together Railcard which at the time I purchased the tickets I did not possess. I purchased the railcard from the ticket office at my local station on the morning of travel thus ensuring maximum railcard validity.

Had I needed to be in possession of the railcard when I purchased the tickets then I'd have lost three months railcard validity.

 

[Haywain]

but I also don't entirely see why you would purchase a ticket before a railcard... what if it doesn't turn up in time?

A digital railcard, which is what a very large proportion of people have these days, takes seconds to arrive. Meanwhile, a cheap ticket may only be available several weeks ahead of the travel date, and potentially ahead of the date when the buyer qualifies for buying and using a railcard.

 

[saismee]

I purchased some very cheap Advance fares three months ahead of travel discounted with a Two Together Railcard which at the time I purchased the tickets I did not possess. I purchased the railcard from the ticket office at my local station on the morning of travel thus ensuring maximum railcard validity.

Had I needed to be in possession of the railcard when I purchased the tickets then I'd have lost three months railcard validity.

There's always a case I miss! Maybe it could ask for a railcard after selecting tickets if no railcard is attached to your account? This would require a conscious decision to actually apply a railcard each time, maybe we could call it the "customer's reminder appliance" . In all seriousness, I am now understanding the complexity that this could bring, but it will still also pain me every single time a customer gets a penalty or fine for a completely reasonable mistake.

 

[negone]

Railcards are an anachronism, they should not exist. The only loss to the railway is the £30 cost of a new card. No other business could maintain a 35% attack on their set prices, unless the prices were inflated.

 

[Haywain]

Railcards are an anachronism, they should not exist. The only loss to the railway is the £30 cost of a new card. No other business could maintain a 35% attack on their set prices, unless the prices were inflated.

I guess you believe that without railcards all fares are going to magically drop by 33%?

 

[DaveB10780]

No thanks I buy tickets for various family members with different railcards, the last thing I need to do is enter more data. It really is not hard to remember an expiry date.

 

[negone]

Railcards are just marketing. You could do similar with advances. We should be fighting for change, not allowing the toc taking us as fools. So what other businesses give a generous 33%

 

[Haywain]

So what other businesses give a generous 33%

Lots of businesses give discounts to customers who commit to holding a loyalty card.

 

[saismee]

Lots of businesses give discounts to customers who commit to holding a loyalty card.

Usually only 10% for students or a freebie every 5-10 sales. 33% is a very high discount...
I absolutely see the marketing benefit though... extremely worthwhile for longer journeys, and they're much more inclined to travel again to take advantage of the 1/3 off (provided they aren't discouraged by overcrowding or disruption, that is).

 

[AM9]

Usually only 10% for students or a freebie every 5-10 sales. 33% is a very high discount...
I absolutely see the marketing benefit though... extremely worthwhile for longer journeys, and they're much more inclined to travel again to take advantage of the 1/3 off (provided they aren't discouraged by overcrowding or disruption, that is).

I agree, £35 buy-in for a year's discount of 33% is both a bargain for the passenger and brings an urge to make more savings throughout the card's validity period. The deal is offered to groups that the industry wants to encourage to travle off-peak. Equipping a railway for peak demand is expensive and off-peak travel offsets some of the cost.
Nobody is forced to buy a railcard to travel by rail. The holder needs to balance their priorities, - if you want the discount, all they must to do is:

a) remember to carry the card (in whatever form it is issued)​

and​

b) remember to renew it before the date of a discounted journey purchased ahead.​

 

[zero]

The only loss to the railway is the £30 cost of a new card.

Exactly this - if someone forgets to renew a railcard, they should just be charged say £60 for an on-the-spot railcard - perhaps in the form of an exchangeable voucher, in order to backdate the new railcard to the expiry of the previous railcard (which would need to be provided as evidence of "forgetting" to renew).

Obviously, the passenger would still need to currently qualify for a railcard, or else the usual penalty for using an invalid ticket should apply.

 

[Hadders]

There's always a case I miss! Maybe it could ask for a railcard after selecting tickets if no railcard is attached to your account? This would require a conscious decision to actually apply a railcard each time, maybe we could call it the "customer's reminder appliance" . In all seriousness, I am now understanding the complexity that this could bring, but it will still also pain me every single time a customer gets a penalty or fine for a completely reasonable mistake.

I've purchased railcards from many different retailers over the years, some physical others digital. I buy train tickets for different people applying railcard discunts that I'm nnot entitled to myself (but they are!). The simplest way is just to make sure your railcard is valid and indate.

Railcards are an anachronism, they should not exist. The only loss to the railway is the £30 cost of a new card. No other business could maintain a 35% attack on their set prices, unless the prices were inflated.

There is no way the train companies are going to drop the price of tickets by a third.

Railcards are just marketing. You could do similar with advances. We should be fighting for change, not allowing the toc taking us as fools. So what other businesses give a generous 33%

What about railcard discounts on Advance tickets? I'd rather a railcard discounted flexible ticket over an Advance ticket any day of the week.

Exactly this - if someone forgets to renew a railcard, they should just be charged say £60 for an on-the-spot railcard - perhaps in the form of an exchangeable voucher, in order to backdate the new railcard to the expiry of the previous railcard (which would need to be provided as evidence of "forgetting" to renew).

Obviously, the passenger would still need to currently qualify for a railcard, or else the usual penalty for using an invalid ticket should apply.

Sounds attractive. Tell you what, I'll not bother renewing my railcard when it expires and I'll take my chance until I'm caught and just pay the £60. I'd probably get away with it for ages on short distance services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought there were moves to quote the railcard number when booking, to avoid the fraud/expiry issues.
It would also enable TOC/passengers to track usage and overall spend, much like any retail loyalty card system.
Spain's equivalent senior railcard, for instance, the Tarjeta Dorada, requires you to insert the card number before discounted tickets will be issued.

 

[The exile]

Usually only 10% for students or a freebie every 5-10 sales. 33% is a very high discount...
I absolutely see the marketing benefit though... extremely worthwhile for longer journeys, and they're much more inclined to travel again to take advantage of the 1/3 off (provided they aren't discouraged by overcrowding or disruption, that is).

Never shopped in Sainsbury’s?

 

[Titfield]

Usually only 10% for students or a freebie every 5-10 sales. 33% is a very high discount...
I absolutely see the marketing benefit though... extremely worthwhile for longer journeys, and they're much more inclined to travel again to take advantage of the 1/3 off (provided they aren't discouraged by overcrowding or disruption, that is).

Tesco Club Card Only prices, Co-Op members only prices are often substantially cheaper than non card holder / non member prices.

 

[Hadders]

I thought there were moves to quote the railcard number when booking, to avoid the fraud/expiry issues.
It would also enable TOC/passengers to track usage and overall spend, much like any retail loyalty card system.
Spain's equivalent senior railcard, for instance, the Tarjeta Dorada, requires you to insert the card number before discounted tickets will be issued.

This sort of thing gets suggested on here every so often but I've not heard of any serious proposal from a train company on this.

• Are ticket selling websites/machines/ticket offices going to have to enter the railcard number every time you purchase a ticket?
• Will this number be checked against a central database or can I just input any number I like?
• What happens if the link to the central database is down (it happens!)
• How much slower will the ticket purchasing process become because of this?
• How does someone buy a ticket on behalf of someone else?
• Does the railcard have to match the person trying to buy the ticket? If not, cue much sharing of railcard numbers amongst friends/family/social media etc as a workaround thus defeating the object.

 

[The exile]

This sort of thing gets suggested on here every so often but I've not heard of any serious proposal from a train company on this.

• Are ticket selling websites/machines/ticket offices going to have to enter the railcard number every time you purchase a ticket?
• Will this number be checked against a central database or can I just input any number I like?
• What happens if the link to the central database is down (it happens!)
• How much slower will the ticket purchasing process become because of this?
• How does someone buy a ticket on behalf of someone else?
• Does the railcard have to match the person trying to buy the ticket? If not, cue much sharing of railcard numbers amongst friends/family/social media etc as a workaround thus defeating the object.

It’s not going to stop deliberate evaders- just be a prompt to people to check the expiry date of their railcard.

 

[fandroid]

No solution has to be perfect to be reasonably effective. There are lots of "whatabouts" on here but there are also many ways of making allowances for the special circumstances they describe.

Most people who buy tickets online have an account with their usual retailer. There ought to be a mechanism whereby the expiry date of the Railcard can be retained on the account and a query message turn up for any Railcard purchases after that expiry date. "Have you renewed the Railcard which expired on (date)?" It wouldn't cover TVM purchases, but it would, judging by the cries for help we get here, cover a lot of cases and thereby, be effective.

If the Railcard is bought on the account, then the expiry date could be retained automatically. If not then a prompt could be programmed in for the customer to enter the date.

Unanswered prompts don't need to actually prevent the purchase, but they do put the onus on the purchaser to ensure their purchase is legit.

 

[Adam Williams]

Just set up auto-renew and then you'll only need to worry when you age out of the Railcard.

 

[Harpo]

This sort of thing gets suggested on here every so often……

• Does the railcard have to match the person trying to buy the ticket? If not, cue much sharing of railcard numbers amongst friends/family/social media etc as a workaround thus defeating the object.

It ought not be impossible to enter a railcard number for validation to produce a ticket with the card holders name plus ‘valid only with proof of identity’ printed on it.

Yes, it’s probably going to slow things down a bit at the issuing stage but is that such a huge hardship in exchange for a significant discount, a bit more revenue protection plus more ways to demonstrate entitlement/validity with other ID?

After all, what other organisations are daft enough to offer an online service with a box simply marked ‘tick here for a third off’ ?