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Why is the Mercedes Citaro so unpopular in London

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sk688

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Around England and in Europe , I have seen a high number of Mercedes Citaro
( rigid ) vehicles operating Single Decker buses

However in London , barely any are operated with rigid Citaros ( The Go Ahead 507 , 521 used to , but now I think only the 108 and X26 do )

Why is it so ? I know they have a bit of an explosive reputation , especially in articulated form , but to me they seem far better built and a better bus than an e200 , or e200 MMC , so why arent London operators taking them for single decker routes , rather than standard, boring , rattly e200s ?
 
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Hophead

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X26 passed to Metrobus just yesterday and now sees double deckers.
 

J-2739

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I loved the articulated Citaros in London. So much nostalgia! :cry:

I don't really know, but apart from the fire issues, I think they're quite expensive to produce and maintain, being European heavyweights.
 

mbonwick

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Expensive (both to purchase and for spares), heavier on fuel, lower passenger capacity. Size is the main one though - there's not many TfL routes that use full sized single deckers. The Citaro K is trying to combat that, but still has the other issues.
 

Bungle965

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They are expensive and don't have any hybrid/electric features that TfL likes (although they do now have EuroVI engines) heavy also on fuel and also should something go wrong they are expensive to get spares for. However you do generally get a decent bus certainly better than the stuff that ADL used to throw out (Before MMC range was introduced)
That is not to say that Citaro's are completely devoid from London I believe that Epsom Coaches operate some.
The Citaro in it's current form is not suited to Central London running also due to most routes requiring double deckers also.
Sam
 
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sk688

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Ah understand now

I agree it may not be too good for Central London

Hopefully the Citaro K is good , and maybe Soveriegn , when its time to replace the e200s in Harrow , buy these
 

overthewater

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There is one place in the UK who seem to love these buses, Mcgills in Scotland:
http://www.mcgillsbuses.co.uk/news/mcgills-featured-in-route-one-magazine.aspx

McGill's New Citaro Buses Review, As Featured in Route One Magazine

Tim Deakin, Senior Staff Journalist at routeONE magazine took one of our Mercedes-Benz Citaros on a test drive, below is his review:

The Mercedes-Benz Citaro is not the cheapest single-decker on the bus market, but it has an aura of quality which, in the right application, is well worth the outlay. The first Scottish operator to take the Euro 6 Citaro was McGill's, and Tim Deakin drives one of them.

The Citaro has met the reasonable sales success since introduction to the UK in 2000, and sales of the revamped model at Euro 6 have been encouraging. As with most of the German builder's vehicles, the market regards it as a premium product - but does it live up to the hype?

Greenock-based McGill's Buses was an early customer for the Euro 6 model, and answers that with a clear 'yes'. It took 14 for its flagship ClydeFlyer services in late 2014. After a handful of teething problems, the Citaros have settled in well on what is demanding work, where they will each cover in the region of 150,000km per year.

While the ClydeFlyer group generates a strong demand from Glasgow to the coast, it also sees high peak demand from commuters working in Scotland's largest city, competing with the parallel railway for both markets.

Although price is a key part of McGill's weaponry, service quality is equally important. That's where the Citaros come in, although a double-decker is allocated to one duty for capacity reasons.

"The Citaros have been a big hit with passengers. While it's early days, we have seen patronage gains since their introduction," says Marketing Manager Isabelle Murray. "We went for a high specification to make the service as attractive as possible, but even so, the buses are real head turners. They have been very well received in the areas they serve."

Build

With McGill's Euro 6 Citaros around ten months old, Managing Director Ralph Roberts kindly made available for a Route One Test Drive. Dimensions-wise the Citaro is little different to other single-deckers, be the lightweight or heavy-duty types. It's 12.14m long and 3.10m high and seats 41, including three tip-ups; separate buggy and wheelchair areas provided.

A number of subtle external styling changes have been made at Euro 6, most obvious of which are small 'flares' above each wheel.

Mercedes-Benz's three pointed star is prominent and the manufacturer's identity is also clearly visible on the cab door. This is important for McGill's, as the premium German brand resonates with aspirational commuters, says Isabelle.

Power is from the six-cylinder 7.7-litre OM 936 engine. With the exception of two more cylinders, its architecture is identical to the 5.1-litre OM 934 supplied by Daimler to other bus builders, which has proven popular at Euro 6.

The OM 936 develops 295bhp, putting the Citaro at the top of the power league for Euro 6 single-deckers. It is coupled to the six-speed ZF EcoLife gearbox, giving a driveline well suited to interurban operation.

The engine is in line, but to accommodate the full-length low-floor, it is mounted horizontally on the extreme rear nearside. While an unusual arrangement, it has its benefits says Chief Engineer Grant Pirie; the top of the engine is easily accessible, for example.

The radiator is above the engine at head height, which is also beneficial. It prevents a build-up of road grime on the core, which could affect efficiency. Grant notes the OM 936 runs around 10oC hotter than engines in earlier generations of Citaro.

Passenger access

Access is via standard two-piece doors with a manual wheelchair ramp fitted. Wheel arch intrusion into the saloon is naturally greater than on a lightweight bus with smaller wheels, but the 'throat' is easily negotiated.

A single seat is ahead of each front wheel arch; immediately behind are the wheelchair and buggy areas, on the nearside and offside respectively. Priority seats come next.

17 fixed seats and the three tip-ups are reachable without encountering a step. The flat floor extends well behind the rear axle, although seats from around the two-thirds point are platform-mounted.

The emergency exit is amidships on the offside, while a number of windows are also marked as such. Hammers hidden behind breakable glass in the coving panels, which should go some way to dispel any temptation to remove them for other reasons.

The rear row of three seats is reached via a substantial step and sits next to the nearside-mounted 'shower cubicle'. Although the extreme rear is well lit, it is slightly claustrophobic.

Curiously, Mercedes-Benz has not spread the bell pushed out throughout the bus. Most are towards the front, with few at the rear. Ralph explains that EvoBus is aware of this, and will shortly install additional stop request buttons.

McGill's has opted for Mobitec destination equipment, which displays in white. It has also specified a repeater above the rear windscreen which shows both the service number and destination.

Passenger comfort

With the Citaros on routes where many passengers have a car or train alternative, serious thought went into the specification.

At the front a bin is provided, while comprehensive internal and external CCTV is fitted. Seats are high-backed, with the headrests finished in synthetic leather. McGill's logo is stitched into this part of the seats, undertaken during build in Germany.

All forward-facing seats accessible without encountering a step are of the cantilever type, simplifying cleaning of the bus, while wheelchair restraint bars also 'swoop in' at the bottom and are mounted close to the side wall. The floor is wood effect, adding to the quality feel. Wi-Fi is provided.

To complement the four opening windows a roof-mounted ventilation system is fitted as standard. It draws in air via grille immediately behind the signalling window, and Grant reports that there have been no complaints about its effectiveness over the summer. Heating is from perimeter radiators at floor level.

Verdict

McGill's is an established Citaro operator and now has 45, including 10 articulated examples. While the Euro 6 buses have been purchased to upgrade the ClydeFlyer routes, Ralph explains that an 18,000kg GVW types give benefits over lighter models in terms of standing capacity, an important consideration on some routes.

A slight fuel penalty comes as a result, although substantially less than may be expected. The Euro 6 Citaros weigh in at a respectable 10,775kg unladen, and on the Clyde Flyer routes they are returning highly respectable figures.

"The Euro 6 buses use around 10% less fuel than earlier Citaros on comparable duties, and deliver around 9.5mpg, which we regard as excellent," says Ralph.

Although that may partially be explained by their interurban use, McGill's has also trialled a pair on one of its Glasgow urban services. There, the return was around 9mpg, he says, comfortably exceeding expectations. Ad-Blue consumption is in the region of 30 litres per week.

"The Citaro is a quality product, and we would not hesitate to take more in the future if and when a requirement exists. It is considerably more expensive than lighter single-deckers, but on work such as the Clyde Flyers routes that extra investment is well worth it.

"It also does great things for our image. People notice the Citaros, and the Mercedes-Benz badge is an acknowledged hallmark of quality. We expect long lives from the buses; ideally we will run them on flagship routes for five-seven years before moving them to easier work, and we anticipate using them for their full lives. The truth is that they're too good to sell on the second-hand market.

With one or two teething problems having been dealt with rapidly under warranty by EvoBus, the Citaros have settled down and are liked by staff and passengers alike. On the ClydeFlyer route, they are also helping drive the Holy Grail of rising passenger numbers.

Whether the Citaros economics would stack up against a lightweight bus on a low-speed, moderate demand urban service is debatable. But in the interurban application, the combination of fuel economy, passenger appeal and a high standard of finish sets a benchmark for others to aspire to.
 

Antman

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Ah understand now

I agree it may not be too good for Central London

Hopefully the Citaro K is good , and maybe Soveriegn , when its time to replace the e200s in Harrow , buy these

Apparently the Citaro K doesn't meet TfL emissions standards so no more unless the problem is sorted out.
 

F Great Eastern

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It's an excellent single deck, by far the best in Europe, although Man Lion City is not bad either, there's also a cheaper version of the Citaro, the Connecto, which is sold in Central and Eastern Europe.

Best bendy buses as well.
 

AM9

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It's an excellent single deck, by far the best in Europe, although Man Lion City is not bad either, there's also a cheaper version of the Citaro, the Connecto, which is sold in Central and Eastern Europe.

Best bendy buses as well.

Here in St Albans we had the Citaros on the regular 321 route and the 724 Green Line services, (so technically 321 and the Green Line service were London Transport routes). They are much more comfortable and solid than the Wrights and Dennis offerings used by UNO and others.
 

Bungle965

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It's an excellent single deck, by far the best in Europe, although Man Lion City is not bad either, there's also a cheaper version of the Citaro, the Connecto, which is sold in Central and Eastern Europe.

Best bendy buses as well.

The best bendy buses in your eyes maybe, however in London they had a habit of torching themselves making them unpopular and with the Mayor to be (Boris Johnson) saying that they would be gone if he got into office.
I don't believe I have seen any of the articulated OmniCitys set on fire like the Citaro's have.
Sam
 
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F Great Eastern

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It is good, though the position of the engine gives for a *very* odd seating layout. On balance, I think the O405N was a slightly better bus.

Indeed, but that is not that unique for European layouts having those vertical mounted engines is quite common, whilst the O405N might have been a slightly better bus at the time, it's really old fashioned and outdated looking and feeling now compared to Citaro.

What I will say though is the newer Citraros in the last couple of years are no longer the premium product they used to be, still good build but not as good as they used to be, but that's no surprise since Mercedes were historically more expensive in the UK market, now they are cheaper than they used to be they win more orders.
 

F Great Eastern

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The best bendy buses in your eyes maybe, however in London they had a habit of torching themselves. I don't believe I have seen any of the articulated OmniCitys set on fire like the Citaro's have.
Sam

I don't just judge what I see on just the UK, I know many operators of the Citaro and none of them have had problems with over-heating or going on fire, that seemed to happen in London but it wasn't common in other cities.

As for the Ominicitys, they are a dreadful build quality bus, full of rattles and vibrations, extremely poorly put together and shaking themselves to bits, something the whole Omni line suffers from, apart from the OmniDekka, which wasn't built by Scania.
 

Bungle965

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I don't just judge what I see on just the UK, I know many operators of the Citaro and none of them have had problems with over-heating or going on fire, that seemed to happen in London but it wasn't common in other cities.

As for the Ominicitys, they are a dreadful build quality bus, full of rattles and vibrations, extremely poorly put together and shaking themselves to bits, something the whole Omni line suffers from, apart from the OmniDekka, which wasn't built by Scania.

I am not going to disagree with you that they are not the best, they operate the 135 in Manchester which I am a regular user, they have so far survived many years and certainly longer than the Wright Eclipse Fusions with the last one of those leaving First Manchester last month having being the sole one for a number of years.
I think the OminiCity`s swansong is fast approaching however, much like for the Citaro`s at National Express Coventry.
Sam
 

ChrisPJ

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How many Citaro fires were there actually? Three or four? As a proportion of the total bendy fleet how does that stack up against fires in Tridents, Enviros, Volvos, Scanias?
 

Busaholic

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The Citaros were very popular with X26 passengers, I believe, as they are superior vehicles for the longer-distance passenger: it is difficult to believe that the double deckers will beat them for comfort and convenience. The 227 between Bromley and Crystal Palace has been host to rigid Citaros since 2012, and this route regularly tops, or comes near to, passenger satisfaction surveys in London. This and near-parallel (in parts) route 358 seem to have been allowed higher vehicle spec than many others in recent times, for reasons that are unclear.
 

Busaholic

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How many Citaro fires were there actually? Three or four? As a proportion of the total bendy fleet how does that stack up against fires in Tridents, Enviros, Volvos, Scanias?
I believe three that gained national press attention, all operating for London Central out of New Cross Garage. No aspersions on LC, these were all from the same batch, I think. I can tell you definitely tomorrow if this was so.
 

F Great Eastern

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The fact they were all from the same depot and I presume built at the same time though suggests that there was something in common with those three that wasn't apparent on the wider fleet.
 

RJ

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The Citaros were very popular with X26 passengers, I believe, as they are superior vehicles for the longer-distance passenger: it is difficult to believe that the double deckers will beat them for comfort and convenience. The 227 between Bromley and Crystal Palace has been host to rigid Citaros since 2012, and this route regularly tops, or comes near to, passenger satisfaction surveys in London. This and near-parallel (in parts) route 358 seem to have been allowed higher vehicle spec than many others in recent times, for reasons that are unclear.

The 227 and 358 are very busy routes that are constrained by the low bridge in Shortlands. The road can't easily be lowered as the bridge is flanked with road junctions. The H37 is similarly restricted in Isleworth, but is operated by 12m Tempos. The 203 and 293 aren't really restricted, but have full sized single deckers. In the case of routes like that, sometimes it's a balance between operating deckers at a lower frequency, or offering a more attractive service with 12m buses that are slightly cheaper to operate. I worked out of Green Street Green in 2015 but was never allowed to take the then brand new Citaros out on rail replacement, more's the pity!

I would have loved to have specced more routes for full sized single deckers, but London's narrow, winding roads aren't built for them. They were too large for the 331. The 482 is unusual in being low frequency with double deckers. I thought about 12m buses for it, but it shares a short but busy corridor with the H32 which would cause problems with selective inadequacy if single deckers were used, so it stayed as it is.
 
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Statto

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One of the Citaro's self combusted on the Aigburth Road in Liverpool when a couple were transferred to Arriva Speke depot.

The length was a problem, notorious for blocking up junctions ecc especially if they ran in pairs or more. Lack of seats whilst the capacity was 3 figures, but most passengers would be standing think they had around 50 seats which is just bigger than a full size single deck vehicle.

I also dislike being in the rear portion on a bendi due to motion sickness which i don't get on rigid vehicles.
 
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vicbury

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The only time I felt motion sickness on the rear section of a bendy bus was on a Citaro in London on a late-night 29. However, that was more due to the quantity of alcohol that had been consumed than the bus itself!

Generally I found bendy buses better for motion sickness than rigid buses such as the B7RLE. The floor level on those rigid Volvos is way too high at the rear which gives you a horrible perspective on the road that I find most uncomfortable.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I don't just judge what I see on just the UK, I know many operators of the Citaro and none of them have had problems with over-heating or going on fire, that seemed to happen in London but it wasn't common in other cities.

As for the Ominicitys, they are a dreadful build quality bus, full of rattles and vibrations, extremely poorly put together and shaking themselves to bits, something the whole Omni line suffers from, apart from the OmniDekka, which wasn't built by Scania.

Have to say that I travelled on a pair of Arriva North East's Omnicities last weekend on routes that encompassed high speed running, rural stretches and urban grinding and they weren't bad. A bit creaky here and there but hell, they're 12 years old.
 

MotCO

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The 227 and 358 are very busy routes that are constrained by the low bridge in Shortlands. .

The 358 was previously operated by single deck Omnicities. With the tender renewal, Citaros were ordered, maybe because Metrobus was being managed by London Central / General who had experience with Citaros. The old Omnicities were showing their age at the end, with rattles and failures, such that Omnicities from route 293 were drafted in to cover.

The other route with Citaros, albeit the short K version, is 413 operated by Quality Line, who also had experience with the 12m Citaros on route X26, now lost to Metrobus. Somehow the short bus, full size wheels, and two doors look out of proportion - the longer bus is certainly more pleasing on the eye.
 
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Busaholic

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The 227 and 358 are very busy routes that are constrained by the low bridge in Shortlands. The road can't easily be lowered as the bridge is flanked with road junctions. The H37 is similarly restricted in Isleworth, but is operated by 12m Tempos. The 203 and 293 aren't really restricted, but have full sized single deckers. In the case of routes like that, sometimes it's a balance between operating deckers at a lower frequency, or offering a more attractive service with 12m buses that are slightly cheaper to operate. I worked out of Green Street Green in 2015 but was never allowed to take the then brand new Citaros out on rail replacement, more's the pity!

I would have loved to have specced more routes for full sized single deckers, but London's narrow, winding roads aren't built for them. They were too large for the 331. The 482 is unusual in being low frequency with double deckers. I thought about 12m buses for it, but it shares a short but busy corridor with the H32 which would cause problems with selective inadequacy if single deckers were used, so it stayed as it is.

If the X26 had not got cut back from Bromley to Croydon then Shortlands would have been Citaro heaven, just as it was RF heaven up to 1971, with the 227 and Green Line 725s (the precursor to the X26). I went to and from work in Beckenham on the 227 and you rarely had to wait more than five minutes for a bus, often with three turning up together (my all-time record was five, one behind the other). Later on I briefly had a shop at Shortlands but by then the RFs had gone from the 227, to be replaced by the much less frequent SMSs, although there was still a rogue RF on the 725/726 (London Country's last one) which appeared on the Croydon shorts in the peak.
 

455refurb

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X26 passed to Metrobus just yesterday and now sees double deckers.

Good news - not Quality Line losing the route, who are a good operator - but conversion to full time double-deck operation. As a regular X26 user the Citaros were inadequate and I found them uncomfortable; poor legroom and oppressive heating - albeit they were longer than the single-decks used by the previous operator to QL (I think it was Metrobus, actually). The Citaros were regularly overwhelmed and the single door configuration caused long dwell times.

Clearly the route is seeing a growth in numbers, hopefully the vehicles Metrobus will be using will have luggage space, which was about one of the only positives for me about the Citaros used by QL on this route.

For the record I like Citaros as a bus, but not the former X26 examples. Give me a Citaro over an E200 any day, particularly those used by Abellio on the S4 & 407, loud, rattly and odd gearbox behaviour... sometimes its seems as if the driver can't get any power out of the thing, before it suddenly lurches into life.
 

Robertj21a

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Good news - not Quality Line losing the route, who are a good operator - but conversion to full time double-deck operation. As a regular X26 user the Citaros were inadequate and I found them uncomfortable; poor legroom and oppressive heating - albeit they were longer than the single-decks used by the previous operator to QL (I think it was Metrobus, actually). The Citaros were regularly overwhelmed and the single door configuration caused long dwell times.

Clearly the route is seeing a growth in numbers, hopefully the vehicles Metrobus will be using will have luggage space, which was about one of the only positives for me about the Citaros used by QL on this route.

For the record I like Citaros as a bus, but not the former X26 examples. Give me a Citaro over an E200 any day, particularly those used by Abellio on the S4 & 407, loud, rattly and odd gearbox behaviour... sometimes its seems as if the driver can't get any power out of the thing, before it suddenly lurches into life.

The deckers now on the X26 do not yet have luggage racks. I've no idea how that's working out. Even if/when they do get enough racks I presume they'll all be in the lower saloon and I'm not sure too many travellers will feel happy about that if they have to sit upstairs.
 

Antman

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The deckers now on the X26 do not yet have luggage racks. I've no idea how that's working out. Even if/when they do get enough racks I presume they'll all be in the lower saloon and I'm not sure too many travellers will feel happy about that if they have to sit upstairs.

The double deckers currently on the X26 are just temporary. It should also be noted that Quality Line regularly put double deckers on the route and there was no particular problem with luggage.
 
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