Why is the terminus situation south of the Thames so complicated and why was it never rationalised?

[65477]

After the destructive caused by bombing 1940-45 there were numerous reports into rationalising the position regarding London termini but we know nothing changed. Many of these can be found online.

 

[D Mylchreest]

North of the river the terminus situation is much more simple with one main line having one London terminus. Why is this not the case south of the river? Also why had there been no effort to try to simplify the situation?

In the 1830s there were a fair number of very much smaller railways seeking to gain access to the west end and the city which lead to the area south of the Thames becoming very crowded with competing lines. This lead, in turn, to a very strange residential and industrial development of south London to the areas detriment (basically it was a slum). From memory, Parliament set up an inquiry which recommended that all termini in north London were not to go further south than the 'New Road' aka Euston Road which is why, basically, you have the current layout in north London.
Incidentally Euston Station was originally planned, by the London And Birmingham Railway, to be a through station with the final terminus to be on what became the Gamages site on Holborn Circus. This plan was kiboshed by this report and the LBR and its successors (LNWR, LMS & BR) had to put up with the hopelessly inefficient layout of Euston until its rebuilding in the mid sixties but it is still very cramped.
HTH

 

[Class 170101]

However, it does beg the question of what would happen if a tunnel was built from Victoria, to Paddington, then OOC and out to the WCML. A crossrail that skirts the edges of London perhaps, but would that permit greater connectivity to HS2 for people south of the river?

Called the West London Line and runs via Kensington Olympia between Clapham Jn and Willesden Jn.

 

[IrishDave]

As a result there was no need to run services to the City termini at weekends, or much after 2100 on weekdays. That's why Cannon Street closed early on weekdays and didn't open at all at weekends. Holborn Viaduct also didn't open at weekends. The Northern City line to/from Moorgate continued to operate like this until quite recently.

Perhaps the last relic of this is the opening hours of City Thameslink - trains only call there 0445-2300 Monday to Friday, and 0900-2100 Saturday, with the station being closed on Sundays. Do any other stations in the City still close on Sundays?

 

[Horizon22]

North of Thames from "the North", you've still got Marylebone, Euston, Kings Cross, St Pancras, Moorgate

South of Thames you've got Victoria, Waterloo, Charing Cross, Cannon Street and London Bridge (half and half). Cannon Street didn't open at all on weekends for decades.

Serving destinations East & West you've got Paddington, Liverpool Street (a bit to the North as well) and Fenchurch Street.

I don't think there's a that dramatic situation really (5 v 5). Charing Cross, Cannon Street and London Bridge (Southern side) combined has fewer platforms than Waterloo, so capacity plays a part.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do any other stations in the City still close on Sundays?

Cannon Street didn't have a Sunday service for many a year. Think Sunday services resumed again in January 2015.

 

[Topological]

Called the West London Line and runs via Kensington Olympia between Clapham Jn and Willesden Jn.

Notwithstanding capacity constraints relative to the Elizabeth Line, the West London Line serves neither Victoria, nor Paddington.

The suggestion of a link from Victoria to Paddington and on to OOC and the Euston suburban trains is quite off-topic for discussing South London termini.

 

[Deepgreen]

Among many other possible factors is the fact that the London rail network has always been tube-heavy to the north and main line-heavy towards the south. The Southern electric system flourished into a dense system and served several termini, whereas the surface suburban network to the north is much less dense, requiring fewer termini.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I always wondered why the LBSCR didn't extend their line from the original London Bridge terminus through to Charing Cross to access the West End 15 years before the SER did, instead of building Victoria.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Frighteningly expensive I suspect.

 

[30907]

Were services diverted to Charing Cross or terminated at London Bridge when Cannon Street was closed, or were services too irregular to say?

The offpeak service was slimmed down (aka cut severely) at various times from the late 50s.
For example the 1963 service shows Cannon St closed from Saturday lunchtime till early Monday, with some trains terminating London Bridge (presumably the old Low Level) and others using Charing X.
After the 1976 resignalling, high level P2 could conveniently be used to terminate trains - and was - but most went to CHX.
There was also a period (can't remember exact dates) when an offpeak shuttle ran LBR-CST, also using P2 but in the opposite direction.

 

[jfollows]

Notwithstanding capacity constraints relative to the Elizabeth Line, the West London Line serves neither Victoria, nor Paddington.

The suggestion of a link from Victoria to Paddington and on to OOC and the Euston suburban trains is quite off-topic for discussing South London termini.

The GWR used the West London Line to reach Victoria when the latter was opened, though, didn’t it?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I think Cannon St in its peak only incarnation supplied extra trains. So the service through London Bridge was basically doubled in the peak. Actually more than doubled as there were Cannon St to Medway towns and beyond services which had no equivalent Charing Cross services (the off peak trains came from Victoria).

 

[frodshamfella]

Were services diverted to Charing Cross or terminated at London Bridge when Cannon Street was closed, or were services too irregular to say?

From what I remember CS was only ever M-F peaks, same as HV. From where I lived ( Bexleyheath ) Charing Cross was always the main terminus with Cannon Street, Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct during Mon -Fri peaks, far more to Cannon Street than BF and HV.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

In the inter-war years there was scheme, worked up in some detail, to replace Charing Cross with a new terminus on the South Bank. One of the main aims was to replace the 'ugly' Hungerford Rail Bridge with an 'elegant' road bridge more befitting of the location.

Charing X

Less than fifty years after the opening of Charing Cross, there were plans to close the station and replace its rail bridge with a grand new road bridge.



The station opened in 1864 but by 1908 Thomas Collcutt had already proposed its demolition and hoped to replace the bridge with a grand, shop-lined, Charing Cross Road Bridge.



Over the following two decades many other plans for the removal of Charing Cross station and the building of a new bridge were to follow and for a time the idea had official backing. The scheme only died a death when government backing was withdrawn in 1931.

 

[urbophile]

It's a fascinating and extremely complex subject worth of a Jago Hazzard video. (is he signed up to this site?). One factor is the intense rivalry between companies serving the same area - London Chatham & Dover and South Eastern Railways for example. Another is the reluctance of the northern main line companies to develop suburban traffic, hence the rise of the Metropolitan and later tube railways, mostly serving north of the Thames; meanwhile the growth of the vast built-up area that is South London was more or less contemporary with the development of the railways. All the south-eastern and central southern parts of the country ended up with termini both in the City and the West End; the south-west had to make do with the Waterloo and City as an add-on to bring passengers from Waterloo.

 

[frodshamfella]

I always found it strange Cannon Street had a few more platforms than Charing Cross which had 6, and yet in the past Cannon Street was dead during the daytime and the weekend

 

[FR510]

I always found it strange Cannon Street had a few more platforms than Charing Cross which had 6, and yet in the past Cannon Street was dead during the daytime and the weekend

Cannon Street has 7 twelve car platforms.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I always found it strange Cannon Street had a few more platforms than Charing Cross which had 6, and yet in the past Cannon Street was dead during the daytime and the weekend

Cannon Street for the City, Charing X for the West End?

 

[frodshamfella]

Cannon Street for the City, Charing X for the West End?

Thats right, I commuted to both in the past

 

[MaxB]

By simplify, presumably you mean less convenient. I choose which station to go to depending on my final destination, often with the option of then walking there.

 

[etr221]

I always found it strange Cannon Street had a few more platforms than Charing Cross which had 6, and yet in the past Cannon Street was dead during the daytime and the weekend

Pre WW1 most (or at least many) trains ran to/from Charing Cross via Cannon Street. The balance in use and busyness between the City and West End over the years is something now little known or understood.

And more generally, where stations (even London Termini) were built in relation to towns and cities as they then were is not something we generally realise.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And, as time moved forward the commuter based services south of London were more dependent on passengers walking, often from an office, to the terminus, something less the case with Euston; St Pancras, Marylebone, King’s Cross and Paddington.

When your journey took 30 minutes taking 30 minutes to get to the station is a waste. When the journey’s six hours it’s an incidental.

And yes; there’s obviously an element of chicken and egg; but in the 19th and early 20th centuries the southern termini were much closer to the centres of employment than the northern ones.

 

[30907]

Cannon Street has 7 twelve car platforms.

And historically had 8.

 

[frodshamfella]

Pre WW1 most (or at least many) trains ran to/from Charing Cross via Cannon Street. The balance in use and busyness between the City and West End over the years is something now little known or understood.

And more generally, where stations (even London Termini) were built in relation to towns and cities as they then were is not something we generally realise.

I didn't know that. I suppose it could have been the quickest route between West End and the City then perhaps ?

There was a service for many years that ran from London Bridge to Victoria, via Peckham Rye. I think this may have been the only service that ran from one London Terminus to another. I used it a few times and while it took a bit longer than the tube, it's was a more relaxed way to get between the two stations, also handy when problems on the underground. I think latterly people were unaware of this option between London Bridge and Victoria.

 

[BRX]

It's a fascinating and extremely complex subject worth of a Jago Hazzard video. (is he signed up to this site?). One factor is the intense rivalry between companies serving the same area - London Chatham & Dover and South Eastern Railways for example. Another is the reluctance of the northern main line companies to develop suburban traffic, hence the rise of the Metropolitan and later tube railways, mostly serving north of the Thames; meanwhile the growth of the vast built-up area that is South London was more or less contemporary with the development of the railways. All the south-eastern and central southern parts of the country ended up with termini both in the City and the West End; the south-west had to make do with the Waterloo and City as an add-on to bring passengers from Waterloo.

I am actually in the process of making a video (in the form of an animated map) that tries to explain how the railways of south London developed. As you say, it is very complicated!

This will eventually be put on youtube but I currently have a preliminary/draft version of it, as an unlisted video.

If anyone reading this is interested (particularly anyone knowledgeable willing to offer comments on whatever mistakes I may have made so far) in looking at it, drop me a PM.

 

[FR510]

And historically had 8.

And before 1926 had 9 apparently!

 

[norbitonflyer]

I didn't know that. I suppose it (Charing Cross to Cannon Street) could have been the quickest route between West End and the City then perhaps ?

Not for long, as the District railway was built around the same time (Cannon Street SER 1866, Mansion House MDR 1871). Until waterloo Jubnction opened it became notorious, in the days of closed compartment stock, for "ladies of negotiable virtue" plying their trade.

There was a service for many years that ran from London Bridge to Victoria, via Peckham Rye. I think this may have been the only service that ran from one London Terminus to another. I think latterly people were unaware of this option between London Bridge and Victoria.

There is another such service that still runs - Victoria - Streatham Hill - Crystal Palace - Forest Hill - London Bridge

 

[Horizon22]

There is another such service that still runs - Victoria - Streatham Hill - Crystal Palace - Forest Hill - London Bridge

Really its just two Crystal Palace terminators lumped together into one through train! Although I'm sure some of the Gipsy Hill and Sydenham residents find it useful to travel to the "other" London terminus. It only resumed recently post-Covid timetables.

 

[A S Leib]

I think this may have been the only service that ran from one London Terminus to another

Without continuing past them, like most Crossrail, Thameslink or Cannon Street / Charing Cross services.

Did the Dartford loop services calling at London Bridge twice ever switch between Charing Cross at one end of their journey and Cannon Street at the other? Where did Sutton loop services go before the Thameslink core reopened?