Why weren't more 172s ordered instead of the Civity fleets?

[Philip]

Just wondering why Northern and subsequently WMT and TfW decided to go with a completely new build of train and new manufacturer for their new fleets, rather than going with the tried & tested 172s (with any mandatory modifications included)? The 172s are similar to the regional Civities from a passenger perspective, but surely it would have been cheaper to order more 172s as it wouldn't have required a completely new mould being designed, which is the case with the 195s?

Ordering more 172s would also have put more business towards a British manufacturer and base (Bombadier at Derby) rather than putting it towards the Spanish manufacturer CAF.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Just wondering why Northern and subsequently WMT and TfW decided to go with a completely new build of train and new manufacturer for their new fleets, rather than going with the tried & tested 172s (with any mandatory modifications included)? The 172s are similar to the regional Civities from a passenger perspective, but surely it would have been cheaper to order more 172s as it wouldn't have required a completely new mould being designed, which is the case with the 195s?

Ordering more 172s would also have put more business towards a British manufacturer and base (Bombadier at Derby) rather than putting it towards the Spanish manufacturer CAF.

Surely the 172 is no longer offered?

 

[hexagon789]

Just wondering why Northern and subsequently WMT and TfW decided to go with a completely new build of train and new manufacturer for their new fleets, rather than going with the tried & tested 172s (with any mandatory modifications included)? The 172s are similar to the regional Civities from a passenger perspective, but surely it would have been cheaper to order more 172s as it wouldn't have required a completely new mould being designed, which is the case with the 195s?

Ordering more 172s would also have put more business towards a British manufacturer and base (Bombadier at Derby) rather than putting it towards the Spanish manufacturer CAF.

No longer offered?

 

[Philip]

Surely the 172 is no longer offered?

Northern ordered 195s in 2015/16, were 172s not being offered then?

Surely the 172 is no longer offered?

Northern ordered 195s in 2015/16, were 172s not being offered then?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Northern ordered 195s in 2015/16, were 172s not being offered then?



Northern ordered 195s in 2015/16, were 172s not being offered then?

At the time, Bombardier weren’t offering a 23m DMU platform other than the Aventra.

Besides, why should Northern have ordered a last generation platform?

 

[fgwrich]

At the time, Bombardier weren’t offering a 23m DMU platform other than the Aventra.

Besides, why should Northern have ordered a last generation platform?

Indeed, the Turbostar is now a 25 year old platform (with its origins dating back to the Networker Turbo from the early 1990s) - so it would have been 18 years old in 2016. Time to let that platform go, something Bombardier thankfully did with the Aventra platform replacement.

Also, I believe many of the TOCs were rather put off ordering more 172s after the various fiasco's London Overground and London Midland had with theirs. Just like now, I remember both FGW and Northern having to wait for their slice of the cascaded 150 pie, while Bombardier tried to sort out the various faults and issues with the 172s prior to delivery, including the exhaust issue.

 

[Energy]

Northern weren't confident that Bombardier could deliver the electric Aventras anyway. Bombardier didn't offer the Aventra as a bimode at that time, back then further electrification and cascade looked more likely with NR promising the world with the HOPS train.

 

[172007]

The class 172 has different engines, drive train and also bogies from a turbostar. The 195 / 196 / 197 has the same engine, although updates and the same drive train. Little baffled by the comments. Ots like comparing the current last Ford Focus to the original and saying it's the same car.

There was only one so called fiasco with the 172 and that was actually a fault with the testing rig for the engine exhaust and not the train.

 

[Mikey C]

If Bombardier had offered a diesel Aventra, then CAF might never have got a foothold in the UK...

With all the problems building the 701s, probably a good thing that someone else got the order instead!

 

[Agent_Squash]

The class 172 has different engines, drive train and also bogies from a turbostar. The 195 / 196 / 197 has the same engine, although updates and the same drive train. Little baffled by the comments. Ots like comparing the current last Ford Focus to the original and saying it's the same car.

There was only one so called fiasco with the 172 and that was actually a fault with the testing rig for the engine exhaust and not the train.

The class 172 is nearly 10 years older than the CAF 19x family. As such, whilst the under the hood components maybe similar, it’s not a digital train like the CAF fleets.

It’s a good train - but why on earth would it be reasonable to buy a technology platform which is 10 years out of date just because London Midland and Chiltern had it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The class 172 is nearly 10 years older than the CAF 19x family. As such, whilst the under the hood components maybe similar, it’s not a digital train like the CAF fleets.

It’s a good train - but why on earth would it be reasonable to buy a technology platform which is 10 years out of date just because London Midland and Chiltern had it?

I don't think any of that is relevant. The simple answer is that there were only two* companies offering a UK gauge DMU at the time the CAF fleets were ordered - CAF and Stadler, and while the latter is good it's also quite expensive.

* Possibly the Chinese would too, but it'd be untried, untested and a huge risk.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just wondering why Northern and subsequently WMT and TfW decided to go with a completely new build of train and new manufacturer for their new fleets, rather than going with the tried & tested 172s (with any mandatory modifications included)? The 172s are similar to the regional Civities from a passenger perspective, but surely it would have been cheaper to order more 172s as it wouldn't have required a completely new mould being designed, which is the case with the 195s?
Ordering more 172s would also have put more business towards a British manufacturer and base (Bombadier at Derby) rather than putting it towards the Spanish manufacturer CAF.

Northern wanted a similar design of EMU (331) and DMU (195), and Bombardier couldn't, or wouldn't, offer a DMU variant of the Aventra.
The order would have been a small one for Bombardier, while CAF were prepared to go for it to gain entry to the UK market.
CAF now assembles trains in Newport, though all the bits come from abroad.
CAF also now has a maintenance facility at Chester (for TfW).

In the commercial world, you cannot just buy trains from your local factory - it's a competition, best bid wins.
There were times when Bombardier lost out because they were less commercially sound than other manufacturers (and have sold out to Alstom since).
Broadly, Hitachi got the intercity orders, Bombardier/Alstom and Siemens got the commuter orders and CAF/Stadler got the regional trains.
Not a bad split really.

It also took government direction to get any new trains at all for the Northern franchise.
Northern (Arriva at the time) was asked to replace the Pacers with new trains, despite the poor business case (ie higher subsidy).

 

[Anvil1984]

The Turbostars were one of the pre-qualifiers for a package to provide Northern (alongside TPE and FGW IIRC) with some new DMUS back in 2008 when the DfT were running a tender. This was cancelled when there was a decision to do some electrification instead (then obviously plans changed quite a few times)

 

[Energy]

I don't think any of that is relevant. The simple answer is that there were only two* companies offering a UK gauge DMU at the time the CAF fleets were ordered - CAF and Stadler, and while the latter is good it's also quite expensive.

* Possibly the Chinese would too, but it'd be untried, untested and a huge risk.

Bombardier still mentioned the turbostar on its website around 2016, confusingly their website didn't show the actual products they offer but only reference projects. I remember hearing that the class 172 still appeared in brochures years after the LM order though finding any evidence is much more difficult now Bombardier has been purchased.

Northern wanted a similar design of EMU (331) and DMU (195), and Bombardier couldn't, or wouldn't, offer a DMU variant of the Aventra.

Yes and no, underneath they are pretty different including the voltages which the connectors use being different (24v & 110v IIRC).

Bombardier couldn't offer a DEMU Aventra at the time (its unclear whether they would have built more 172s), Arriva were also concerned about Bombardier's ability to deliver Aventras on time.

The order would have been a small one for Bombardier, while CAF were prepared to go for it to gain entry to the UK market.

I suspected CAF needed the EMU+DMU order to justify developing its platform for the UK, as well as staff training advantages.

In the commercial world, you cannot just buy trains from your local factory - it's a competition, best bid wins.

Tell that to MPs, a few were upset when Hitachi weren't awarded the Tyne and Wear contract.

The Turbostars were one of the pre-qualifiers for a package to provide Northern (alongside TPE and FGW IIRC) with some new DMUS back in 2008 when the DfT were running a tender. This was cancelled when there was a decision to do some electrification instead (then obviously plans changed quite a few times)

About 200 vehicles total, here is the ITT. When GWEP (and some Northern electrification) was announced the project was binned.

 

[Anvil1984]

About 200 vehicles total, here is the ITT. When GWEP (and some Northern electrification) was announced the project was binned.

Thank you, I couldn't find the ITT but just remember it from when I was just starting out at Northern

 

[D365]

Northern ordered 195s in 2015/16, were 172s not being offered then?

Bombardier did not offer Class 172s for the Arriva Northern ITT.

 

[skyhigh]

Yes and no, underneath they are pretty different including the voltages which the connectors use being different (24v & 110v IIRC).

Regardless the crew training requirements are far smaller - it's a simple 2 day conversion course from 195s to 331s. If 331s were a completely different fleet you'd need a much more detailed (and longer) course.

 

[fgwrich]

The Turbostars were one of the pre-qualifiers for a package to provide Northern (alongside TPE and FGW IIRC) with some new DMUS back in 2008 when the DfT were running a tender. This was cancelled when there was a decision to do some electrification instead (then obviously plans changed quite a few times)

Along with the excellent Hyundai Rotem 22000 Class DMU, as ordered by Iarnród Éireann. I would have loved to have seen those over here too, basically a modern 158 / Mk3 with the Turbostar drive train.

 

[Neptune]

Arriva Rail Northern sensibly wanted a diesel and an electric train which were identical bodywise (at least 23m) and able to reduce the length of time it would take to train the crews on them. As mentioned the drivers course was 9 days on one with a 2 day conversion to the other (if required for your depot). Conductors it was a 2 day course with a paperwork conversion to the other (if required for your depot). So Skipton crews don’t require the 195 conversion and Sheffield don’t need the 331 conversion as neither depot signs those classes.

Only CAF offered this. Bombardier offered an Aventra EMU alongside an idea for a bi-mode unit which wouldn’t be identical to the EMU. The 172 was never in Bombardier’s plans so Northern weren’t going to pursue that when CAF had come up with the solution.

The 195’s and 331’s weren’t actually in testing all that long considering they were a new design for the UK. The 172 would still have needed route clearance and crew/maintenance training on the majority of routes but also no electric version of the 23m class 172 exists. The Electrostars are 20m vehicles which wasn’t what Northern asked for.

 

[Trainbike46]

Did Stadler offer a bimode or diesel FLIRT (like the 231 and 755) as well as a full-electric FLIRT to Northern?

Though I guess they aren't 23m vehicles

 

[Neptune]

Did Stadler offer a bimode or diesel FLIRT (like the 231 and 755) as well as a full-electric FLIRT to Northern?

Though I guess they aren't 23m vehicles

In a word no. They couldn’t match the required spec (fuel range being the biggest blockage).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a word no. They couldn’t match the required spec (fuel range being the biggest blockage).

It seems odd that with what is basically a small locomotive in the middle they can't manage that. If nothing else, fitting two engines and two large tanks in each of two power modules would surely work for added fuel capacity.

 

[Trainbike46]

It seems odd that with what is basically a small locomotive in the middle they can't manage that. If nothing else, fitting two engines and two large tanks in each of two power modules would surely work for added fuel capacity.

the 755s are known to have small tanks to ensure they meet sprinter differentials, so if large tanks was essential for Northern that does make sense on some level