• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Will Crossrail2 Be Built In The Next 40 Years?

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,933
He is saying in an OTT style that London is the most important city in the world and therefore deserves the investment while the Northern cities are minor therefore don't. It is the sort of comment that means I have little sympathy when Londoners complain about the cost of living. I am quite happy living in Greater Manchester and having 90% of what London has to offer at half the cost. I have lived in London too. Rebalancing the economy is better than funding more infrastructure for a city that cant function properly and consquently makes life unaffordable for many. If London wants another new railway it should pay for it.

London is likely to pay for half of Crossrail 2 (at least under what is currently proposed) and so to be equal should other cities also pay for half of their new lines too?

Although to be fair to London the bit that is going to most benefit London costs about 75% of the cost of the regional scheme and so London is, in effect when it pays for half the total cost, funding 66% of the bit that benefits it the most. (in fact if I was TfL/the Mayor I would be using that argument with the DfT to limit the maximum amount of funding that London had to pay)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,577
London is likely to pay for half of Crossrail 2 (at least under what is currently proposed) and so to be equal should other cities also pay for half of their new lines too?

)

Absolutely not. London has the lion's share of public transport investment for decades. Time to be fair to other cities and regions
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,577
If Manchester wants another new tram line it should pay for it.
See where this argument leads?

The argument is London has sucked up alot of the transport budget for a long time - enriching itself at the expense of the rest of the country and widening the north-south divide.

Even this hopeless Conservative govt is starting to realise it.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,933
Absolutely not. London has the lion's share of public transport investment for decades. Time to be fair to other cities and regions

Playing devils advocate for a minute, the investment that a lot of places have needed to relatively recently has been the provision of more coaches (that's not denying that fur large areas they haven't been getting then in the numbers required), as such the cost to do so is fairly small compared to new lines.

There is also the fact that the lion's share of passengers use the railways in London and the South East, which means that to allow for an extra 10% increase in passengers is a lot harder (read costly) compared to elsewhere.

Finally, which railway budget are you talking about? If it is the investment in infrastructure budget then London has been a big drain, if it is the day to day running costs other areas have been a fairly big drain. (It should be noted that TfL are to receive a zero running cost budget soon, which isn't the case in other areas of the UK).

One question, where benefits when investment is made in the South East? Take the example of the works at Reading, yes that helps London and the South East. However it also (once the new trains start to arrive) will benefit the South West, South Wales and parts of the West Midlands. As without Reading there would have been little scope for extra trains and even if there was they may not have been viable due to but being able to be able to carry extra passengers to/from London (which then subsidises the running of the trains were they may not cover their costs).

Therefore London is paying it's own way a lot more (or cross subsidising other services) than other areas (the Elizabeth Line has also been partly funded by Londoners​) and so it's unsurprising that governments have been more willing to invest in London. That's not to say that other areas should receive funding for projects (I agree that they should).
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
9,349
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
Even this hopeless Conservative govt is starting to realise it.

A little unfair IMHO. McLoughlin and Chancellor George Osborne partly developed the Northern Powerhouse idea/Sparks north etc because they recognized quite a few years back that the north/other regions were not getting their fair share. Anyway, don't want to get into politics.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
Sadly, many of us have jobs and careers of our own so lack the time to study up on other people's topics. So don't be patronising.

Same here, but don't comment if you are not prepared to make the effort.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
He is saying in an OTT style that London is the most important city in the world and therefore deserves the investment while the Northern cities are minor therefore don't. It is the sort of comment that means I have little sympathy when Londoners complain about the cost of living. I am quite happy living in Greater Manchester and having 90% of what London has to offer at half the cost. I have lived in London too. Rebalancing the economy is better than funding more infrastructure for a city that cant function properly and consquently makes life unaffordable for many. If London wants another new railway it should pay for it.

That is the intention if you had noticed, but Londoners and Southern commuters are also subsidising rail services in the provinces, so you have the situation where users of a heavily overload railway infrastructure required to get people into work in the UK's primary wealth creator, are being denied investment of their own funds in order to facilitate the heavily subsidised, generally unproductive jaunts elsewhere in the country.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
Absolutely not. London has the lion's share of public transport investment for decades. Time to be fair to other cities and regions

Fair in an equivalent basis, but how should that be determined? The Manchester Hub does not need major tunnel works in difficult terrain, and it will be benefiting from HS2, as it did from WCML upgrade and outside investment in the tram network. In London in the South East the scale of the problem is an order or two magnitude greater.

Main problem is being able to fund investment where it is needed, and not to chase votes that are not going to be swayed.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
The argument is London has sucked up alot of the transport budget for a long time - enriching itself at the expense of the rest of the country and widening the north-south divide.

Where is the evidence for your arguement? There was one report in 2016, but it came from an activist backed agency and was highly selective on the numbers so as to exaggerate the numbers to support their false assertions.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,424
Unless there is a shuffle of existing, or new resources, I guess that is what will have to happen. You could ask NR for a refund on their GBP 2.6 Billion (and growing) over-spend and ask that those resources be applied. Or could ask that travellers on franchises in the south stop having to cross subsidise provincial franchises and then see if those funds can be utilized. In practical terms the answer is make do with what you have.

I am not denying that the services are overcrowded, I am just asking where the funding will come from; any additional expenditure on rail is taking it away from Road, Defence, Welfare or Health care.
I'd put up taxes across the board but that doesn't seem to be popular.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,577
Where is the evidence for your arguement? There was one report in 2016, but it came from an activist backed agency and was highly selective on the numbers so as to exaggerate the numbers to support their false assertions.

There's been many studies and reports on the subject. Here's just a few, and they all come to the same conclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...mes-as-much-infrastructure-north-east-england

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...vestment-in-transport-is-in-london-says-study

http://www.ippr.org/news-and-media/...se-1-600-per-person-london-north-spending-gap
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,933

First up, the big ticket item that dwarfs all other investment is Crossrail, which London is partly funding from direct (local) taxation. If the tax money is removed then that is going to significantly alter the money that is "fair" to spend elsewhere in the UK.

Taking the £16 billion that the UK government is likely to spend on Crossrail 2 (the remaining 50% is likely to be funded by London) and splitting it between the number of rail passengers in the London and South East region (where the vast majority of the benefit would be seen) and you can then work out the funding per passenger to work out what investment should be placed in other regions to result in a per passenger investment figure.

As Crossrail 2 is focused on increasing existing capacity (an increase of 10% of rail capacity in London) rather than reopening or new lines, which is the reason for choosing a per passenger figure (rather than a per population figure) as in much of the UK there area areas where the population is spread in such a way that rail isn't a suitable option which still holds significant numbers of people.

Investment in Rail by region (based on DfT Crossrail 2 budget and distributed on a per rail passenger basis)
Region
East £2,348,000,000*
North West £1,736,000,000
Scotland £1,295,000,000
West Midlands £1,110,000,000
Yorkshire & Humberside £940,000,000
South West £669,000,000 (fixing Dawlish anyone?)
East Midlands £441,000,000
Wales £413,000,000
North East £213,000,000

*The Eastern Region is likely to also benefit from Crossrail 2 whilst other areas in the South East won't, as such there is likely to be some reduction in this figure to be spent in parts of the South East which wouldn't benefit from Crossrail 2.

In the Guarden news story linked to it lists three projects for the North West, North East and Yorkshire & Humberside totalling £1.6 billion based on the above figures would mean that during the construction of Crossrail 2 there would be a need for nearly double that funding (£2.9 billion). However based on just the DfT budget (i.e. excluding London payments) for Crossrail then the above projects probably are broadly a similar budget figure (although that does exclude other investment that is benefiting London).

I would suggest that if the per person spend (rather than per passenger spend) was used for a prolonged period of time then there could be a lot of empty new lines in a lot of the country outside London and the South East as projects are pushed forward just so the investment spend is maintained.

That's not to say that other regions don't need more investment, rather investment may not be as big as some (including the links above) are suggesting that it needs to be to be comparable to London based on a per passenger level of investment.

Yes there could be suppressed demand in the other regions, however any new line/reopening to serve new markets should be evaluated on case by case basis.
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,577
Yes there could be suppressed demand in the other regions, however any new line/reopening to serve new markets should be evaluated on case by case basis.

Investment outside London doesn't have to new or reopened lines. For instance, electrification of all the suburban routes around Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Bradford etc would make a huge difference
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,057
Investment outside London doesn't have to new or reopened lines. For instance, electrification of all the suburban routes around Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Bradford etc would make a huge difference

Huge difference to who?
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,055
Location
Herts
Investment outside London doesn't have to new or reopened lines. For instance, electrification of all the suburban routes around Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Bradford etc would make a huge difference

Including Stockport - Stalybridge for the one train a week - Preston to Ormskirk to cascade a valuable 153 ..?
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,933
Investment outside London doesn't have to new or reopened lines. For instance, electrification of all the suburban routes around Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Bradford etc would make a huge difference

That wasn't the point of that comment, I was saying that investment (when compared to Crossrail 2) should be all about improving the existing lines/improving capacity.

Any new lines (wherever they are) which could attract new customers because they open up address to rail from places previously not served would then be on a case by case basis.

I went further and said that if it were to be on new lines that you could end up with unsuitable investment just so the spend was "fair" if you based it on a per person (population) basis rather than on a per passenger basis.

Personally my view is that there should be an electrification budget so that over time more of the network would gain wires. That would almost certainly not be London centric in where it invested over the medium term.
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,933
Including Stockport - Stalybridge for the one train a week - Preston to Ormskirk to cascade a valuable 153 ..?

In time it could be better to have writes on line that are used semi infrequently just so you don't end up with a micro fleet of DMU's in an otherwise all EMU area. However I would admit that is likely to be a long way off at present.
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,577


Dix says: “I tell people that I come from Grimsby.” She says. “There’s loads of homes up there, but no jobs. Without them, what’s the point of building more? You’ve got to get the jobs in!"

And there's the nub - continuing to invest in already wealthy areas exacerbates an already yawning wealth gap.

Inequality is a huge and growing issue in this country and spending more and more public money in London will do nothing to address the problem.

Andy Burnham, Manchester mayor, and other northern authorities say they're watching Crossrail2 closely. Any sign that money for it is forthcoming before a Northern high-speed link and there will be a political stink
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,578
He is an Islington socialist and his main team live within a post dinner party taxis ride distance so it would get funded. Due to Corbyns weakness within Labour party hierarchy Sadq Khan would probably get the 50:50 funding split he wants.

Perhaps Cross River Tram should be looked at again and DLR extension to Euston and St Pancras.
Considering the amount of times I have been on fgw with john Mcdonnell in the carriage at least one member of his team commutes to work by train.Jeremy Corbyns also been pictured on a bus. Considering the quality of service offered by fgw it is not a surprise he wants the railways nationalised
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,363

I don't understand why either terminating at Tottenham Hale or delaying the New Southgate branch are either clver nor money saving.

I would argue extending services up at Quadrupled Lea Valley to Hertford East and extending the New Southgate to Welwyn Garden City would be better. The money saved on a depot at New Southgate could instead be spent on using the existing Down sidings and re-opening the disused ones on the Up side at Welwyn Garden City.

It would mean local services not going to the city and Moorgate but connections would be available at Euston / Kings Cross and Angel stations or Alexandra Palace and instead paths released at Moorgate for improved services to the Hertford North branch.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
I'd put up taxes across the board but that doesn't seem to be popular.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

Taxes are still too high in this country - you can put they up, but then the same people demanding the increases would then demand more handouts to cover loss of income and the associated increase in inflation. On top of that, tax increases slow economies. We are not able to cover all our current needs because too many have come to believe they are entitled to an easy life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top