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Will East Midlands Trains' Meridians and HST's be replaced when the franchise is renewed?

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edwin_m

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Given that the Government had made it known that they want bimodal trains on the MML I would guess that's what's going to happen.
I wouldn't put it past Grayling to suddenly "clarify" that his announcement about bi-modes only related to buying some to replace the HSTs...

Although I also think that the 5 coach versions probably aren't that far behind in power capability given that they have 60% of their coaches powered Vs 78% for a 9 coach with all intermediate coaches powered, and so there could still be some 5 coach working. However I would expect most to be the longer units.
This difference pretty much means that the shorter unit will have less acceleration in diesel mode than the longer one by a factor of 60/78, or 25% less acceleration to put it another way. This will apply both at low speeds (limited by weight on powered axles) and at higher speeds (limited by installed power) and is probably significant enough to have a noticeable effect on timings.
 
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jimm

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My bad - looking at old sources. 125mph 800s it is. Still need to upgrade OHLE to 125mph, and then justify the quite large extra cost of a bi-mode *edit* are the engines only 940hp? Good luck on the Inverness route pass on ECML....

Yes but the gradients are rather steep there and theyll need to keep up with ScotRail HSTs. HSTs are 4,500hp

Is there some reason people are so fixated on the potential performance of a bi-mode on the Highland Main Line, a route where East Coast runs one train a day each way? Unless Scotrail is planning to path a service out of Perth or Inverness right behind an East Coast train seating 600 people (assuming a nine-car set is used), I doubt the 800 will be under pressure to keep up with or ahead of anything.
 

Class313:)

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Good point. But you do Not want an 800 slipping down the line because its piddly little engine cant provide enough traction to get the train up the line with the ice
 

The Ham

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Good point. But you do Not want an 800 slipping down the line because its piddly little engine cant provide enough traction to get the train up the line with the ice

I would have thought that a train with only a few powered wheels would be more prone to lack of traction than one with lots of powered wheels.
 

The Ham

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I wouldn't put it past Grayling to suddenly "clarify" that his announcement about bi-modes only related to buying some to replace the HSTs...


This difference pretty much means that the shorter unit will have less acceleration in diesel mode than the longer one by a factor of 60/78, or 25% less acceleration to put it another way. This will apply both at low speeds (limited by weight on powered axles) and at higher speeds (limited by installed power) and is probably significant enough to have a noticeable effect on timings.

We will find out the exact nature of what is required by the government once the ITT is published. However, even if the ITT specifies as a minimum the replacement of the HSTs there's no reason that a bidder couldn't offer a full fleet replacement.

The problem is, either the MML is specified to get bimodal trains with XC then allowed to use the 222's, which given the benefits of a uniform fleet is likely to result in a full fleet replacement. Otherwise the opposite is specified (XC to get new trains with MML then allowed to use the Voyagers). The problem with the latter is that I would guess that most bidders for MML would probably just opt for new trains anyway and wood certainly mean that the government was going back on its word (not that would stop it).

Regardless of what is specified we could end up with both fleets totally replaced. For instance before the current TPE franchise (as well as the other franchises that have resulted in some surprising stock outcomes) was let who would have thought that it would have ended up with the units that is has.

With regards to power, MTU have (at least in theory) have a potential solution:

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/10/24/bi-mode-trains-unlocking-opportunity/

...engine supplier MTU provided a paper at Railtex 2017 on diesel/battery/pantograph electric hybrid trains – which they called tri-mode. This offers several possibilities including regeneration into batteries when operating in self-powered mode, and then using the batteries to assist the diesel engine in acceleration, and operating on battery only in, for example, station areas.

I would guess that would probably result in the gap between 0.7m/S2 (800) and 0.79m/S2 (222) being significantly smaller. Potentially to the point that, at least in keeping to timetables the journey times were good enough. (Even if they would be a few minutes slower over a journey at making up list time when running late).
 

edwin_m

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I would guess that would probably result in the gap between 0.7m/S2 (800) and 0.79m/S2 (222) being significantly smaller. Potentially to the point that, at least in keeping to timetables the journey times were good enough. (Even if they would be a few minutes slower over a journey at making up list time when running late).
Not sure where you get those figures from but they look like low-speed accelerations (which is what suppliers usually quote, ignoring the fact acceleration reduces at higher speeds). If so then they depend only on the proportion of weight on powered axles and how well the train takes advantage of adhesion. So introducing a battery won't change these figures unless something else also changes, though it might increase the speed at which acceleration starts to drop off.
 

class26

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I sincerely hope that I am wrong here but reading in the latest Modern Railways about the problems at Middlesborough in accommodating all the new train services pencilled in made me think of a possible weeze that Grayling could pull. Great excuse - congestion at Middlesborough station etc etc, so several of the shiny new bi modes redundant so can be shuffled over the the MML and work together with the existing Meridians and hey presto - problem of new stock for the solved for no outlay.
 
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47802

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Good point. But you do Not want an 800 slipping down the line because its piddly little engine cant provide enough traction to get the train up the line with the ice

So your telling me that even in de-rated mode where they have over 2000hp to shift a 5 car train that they carn't manage that!, the supposed lack of performance on Diesel by 800's is vastly over stated by the anti's on here and if these trains are built for MML it will be or course some kind of 802 variant.
 

D365

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OK i am officially confused. I was told the engines were 940hp?!?

Three engines per five car 800 unit. 940hp x 3 = 2,820hp. As @47802 points out even in "derated mode" they still have 2,250hp. So far from the "piddly little engine" you claim it to be.
 

mushroomchow

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Where HSTs Still Scream. Kind of.
The Corby service is still going to be a major spanner in the works of any fleet homogenisation, as it will be electrified long before any replacement stock comes on-line.

It's still an absolute mystery as to what EMT / their successor are going to run on those services, since the DfT are insistent that whatever runs needs to be "intercity standard" to match the trip quality of the 222s. And of course, as a fully electrified route, it will be pointless operating a bi-mode train there, unless by some miracle the single daily Melton Mowbray via Harringworth Viaduct service isn't cut in the next franchise (spoiler alert - it will be). There are some "intercity" electric fleets coming off-lease around the time that electrification will be completed, granted, but the logic of picking up at most 5 or 6 trainsets from, say, VTEC, is flawed given there will need to be significant work done to prepare staff for their use, and have suitable facilities provided to maintain them, most likely for a relatively short stretch of time.

Whatever happens, they're going to have to either draft in a small, non-standard fleet to work those services at fairly short notice or keep the 222s on the diagram. The latter, of course, completely defeats the point of electrifying the line in the first place.

In the medium term, they'll probably just set bi-modes to work on the route for the sake of wider network flexibility, but beyond that being a pointless waste of their capabilities, the fact remains that, at the current rate, there's going to be a gap, potentially running to a few years, between them electrifying to Corby and acquiring a fleet of trains capable of utilising the new infrastructure.

Of course, none of this would be a problem if the DfT would just swallow their pride and either drop the need for the "intercity standard" stock, or transfer the route to TL.

PS: As for comparison of unit power, we should really be comparing 800s to 222s, which are better performers than the HSTs in most metrics and likely to become the staple of the EM franchise's operations within the next 3-5 years. Given that the jury is still out on how they compare to HSTs on diesel power based on performance recordings on GWR, it's worth noting that they'll be expected to meet a more intensive timetable from 2019, do this on a network which will, at its zenith, still have more than 50% of its route mileage away from the wires and will be expected to do so alongside units in the 222s which are operationally superior to the HSTs they've exclusively been replacing on the GWML.

In response to D365's post, a 222 by comparison pulls 3750hp with a 5-car unit. Not that this matters as much as their acceleration rate, which at 0.75m/s/s is above what a HST can manage - and even further above what an 800 can seemingly manage on diesel power!
 
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Chester1

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The Corby service is still going to be a major spanner in the works of any fleet homogenisation, as it will be electrified long before any replacement stock comes on-line.

It's still an absolute mystery as to what EMT / their successor are going to run on those services, since the DfT are insistent that whatever runs needs to be "intercity standard" to match the trip quality of the 222s. And of course, as a fully electrified route, it will be pointless operating a bi-mode train there, unless by some miracle the single daily Melton Mowbray via Harringworth Viaduct service isn't cut in the next franchise (spoiler alert - it will be). There are some "intercity" electric fleets coming off-lease around the time that electrification will be completed, granted, but the logic of picking up at most 5 or 6 trainsets from, say, VTEC, is flawed given there will need to be significant work done to prepare staff for their use, and have suitable facilities provided to maintain them, most likely for a relatively short stretch of time.

Whatever happens, they're going to have to either draft in a small, non-standard fleet to work those services at fairly short notice or keep the 222s on the diagram. The latter, of course, completely defeats the point of electrifying the line in the first place.

In the medium term, they'll probably just set bi-modes to work on the route for the sake of wider network flexibility, but beyond that being a pointless waste of their capabilities, the fact remains that, at the current rate, there's going to be a gap, potentially running to a few years, between them electrifying to Corby and acquiring a fleet of trains capable of utilising the new infrastructure.

Of course, none of this would be a problem if the DfT would just swallow their pride and either drop the need for the "intercity standard" stock, or transfer the route to TL.

PS: As for comparison of unit power, we should really be comparing 800s to 222s, which are better performers than the HSTs in most metrics and likely to become the staple of the EM franchise's operations within the next 3-5 years. Given that the jury is still out on how they compare to HSTs on diesel power based on performance recordings on GWR, it's worth noting that they'll be expected to meet a more intensive timetable from 2019, do this on a network which will, at its zenith, still have more than 50% of its route mileage away from the wires and will be expected to do so alongside units in the 222s which are operationally superior to the HSTs they've exclusively been replacing on the GWML.

In response to D365's post, a 222 by comparison pulls 3750hp with a 5-car unit. Not that this matters as much as their acceleration rate, which at 0.75m/s/s is above what a HST can manage - and even further above what an 800 can seemingly manage on diesel power!

I think by intercity standard they mean comfort levels not type of stock or speed. A fleet of 110mph EMUs like the 350s but with better seating, sockets, usb charging and wifi would meet the requirements. TPEs intercity trains are currently 350s and 185s after all. A half hourly 12 coach service would require 15 x 4 coach units + spares so would be fine as a mini fleet. I agree about transfering it to Thameslink franchise, it would fit well into Great Northern and provide an opportunity to switch it to DCO or DOO.
 

Mordac

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There is an option on TPE's contract for 397s for further units. It wouldn't be the first time an option contracted by one franchise would be exercised by another.
 

Chester1

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There is an option on TPE's contract for 397s for further units. It wouldn't be the first time an option contracted by one franchise would be exercised by another.

The 397s are 23m units and the follow order has to have the same number of coaches in each unit (5, 6 or 8). Any of these would have less capacity and longer dwell time than 3 x 4 (20m) coach 110mph EMUs with doors at thirds. 9 coach 801s are 234m and don't waste space with extra cabs but would be overkill for the route. Intercity standard does not mean 125mph and end doors.
 

InTheEastMids

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The 397s are 23m units and the follow order has to have the same number of coaches in each unit (5, 6 or 8). Any of these would have less capacity and longer dwell time than 3 x 4 (20m) coach 110mph EMUs with doors at thirds. 9 coach 801s are 234m and don't waste space with extra cabs but would be overkill for the route. Intercity standard does not mean 125mph and end doors.

Judging by comments on St Pancras platform lengths and the specification of works at Market Harborough, the train lengths will be capped at 230-240m, and to avoid a fleet of mixed lengths (4/5*26m) that would lead to 5/10*23m or 4/8/12*20m fleets.

The decision bidders/Dft have to make on quality is fundamentally about door placements. If outer suburban 1/3 2/3 doors are ruled to be OK, then things like 360s or 379s with suitable interiors will be OK, of they can also be cleared for 110mph.

There's talk on the GWR forum that 12 car 387s are restricted on the older HEx OHLE to 100 as the catenary can't handle 3 pantographs at 110. This could be a material issue with the older MML wires, depending on the specification and timings of the upgrades to OHLE planned south of Bedford.

So there's clearly a Rolls Royce option of new 5 car 125mph IC spec trains like the 397, or a budget upgrade using 12 car 100mph refurbs (slip out the descopingbefore the summer recess, it's been done before)
 

Chester1

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Judging by comments on St Pancras platform lengths and the specification of works at Market Harborough, the train lengths will be capped at 230-240m, and to avoid a fleet of mixed lengths (4/5*26m) that would lead to 5/10*23m or 4/8/12*20m fleets.

The decision bidders/Dft have to make on quality is fundamentally about door placements. If outer suburban 1/3 2/3 doors are ruled to be OK, then things like 360s or 379s with suitable interiors will be OK, of they can also be cleared for 110mph.

There's talk on the GWR forum that 12 car 387s are restricted on the older HEx OHLE to 100 as the catenary can't handle 3 pantographs at 110. This could be a material issue with the older MML wires, depending on the specification and timings of the upgrades to OHLE planned south of Bedford.

So there's clearly a Rolls Royce option of new 5 car 125mph IC spec trains like the 397, or a budget upgrade using 12 car 100mph refurbs (slip out the descopingbefore the summer recess, it's been done before)

There is no need to have 2 x units. 3 x 4 coach sets would work because they would most likely have end gangways. GWR has 5 coach sets because they will split and join on multiple services, while Corby EMUs will be basically semi permenant sets or single 9-10 coach units. 2 x 5 coach 125mph sets would require 2 guards when the government will want none or one. If the government chooses 125mph then CAF could offer a 10 coach 397 to compete with 9 coach 801s (23m vs 26m coaches).

Something of the same standard as TPEs 350s would be best, a 110mph UEG 4 x20m but kitted out to be as comfortable as mid door coaches allow. Thats all that Bedford, Kettering and Corby need. The wires should be upgraded by 2023 to allow to allow multiple pantographs and / or 125mph running.
 

D365

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So there's clearly a Rolls Royce option of new 5 car 125mph IC spec trains like the 397, or a budget upgrade using 12 car 100mph refurbs (slip out the descopingbefore the summer recess, it's been done before)

I've not heard any complaints about the Class 379 interior-wise before (beyond the usual "button-gate"), how much work would be needed to convert these to "InterCity spec"?

The existing MML electrification I believe isn't capable of speeds above 100mph so I believe will need upgrading before any higher EMU top speeds are taken advantage of. As above it should be included in the programme of works.
 

Roast Veg

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The existing MML electrification I believe isn't capable of speeds above 100mph so I believe will need upgrading before any higher EMU top speeds are taken advantage of. As above it should be included in the programme of works.
Is it not rated at 110mph?
 

SPADTrap

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Where would these new EMUs be maintained given they can't reach beyond Kettering? I can see them just using bi modes there.
 

43096

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Where would these new EMUs be maintained given they can't reach beyond Kettering? I can see them just using bi modes there.
Is the Thameslink Bedford depot still used now the 700s are in traffic? That would seem a logical solution.
 

43096

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Can that spare the capacity? Might mean 350s make sense given its Siemens.
I’m not sure it is used any more - I’m referring to the Cauldwell depot further from the station, not the stabling sidings - as Siemens use Three Bridges and Hornsey.
 

SPADTrap

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I’m not sure it is used any more - I’m referring to the Cauldwell depot further from the station, not the stabling sidings - as Siemens use Three Bridges and Hornsey.

Oh yeah good point. I don't think a microfleet or EMUs will work.
 
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