Will Eurostar get competition? Getlink plans to purchase 10 sets for use by rivals for Channel Tunnel

[Jorge Da Silva]

Eurostar to finally lose its monopoly? – Business Traveller

Le Parisien reports that Getlink (formerly Eurotunnel) wants to acquire ten new high-speed trains which would be leased to new operators…

www.businesstraveller.com

Since 1994 Eurostar has maintained its monopoly on high-speed (HS) rail services linking London with mainland Europe via the Tunnel.

But changes are afoot. Last Friday it was reported by Le Parisien that Getlink (formerly Eurotunnel) wants to acquire ten new HS trains which would be leased to new operators.

There is no secret that Getlink wants competition for Eurostar (majority owned by SNCF), as we reported almost four years ago.

Every Eurostar which transits the Tunnel pays a toll to Getlink, so clearly the more trains, the greater Getlink’s revenue from its tolls.

Jacques Gounon, director of Getlink, believes that Eurostar could no longer be alone in this market. Gounon said:

“I will buy them and then rent them [the trainsets]. This reduces the issue of fixed costs and the technical barrier.

“Eurostar is very good but it suffers from not having competition.

“Renfe is interested because it already competes with SNCF on its domestic network [with Ouigo ES].”

As readers will know Spain’s national operator announced its plans for Paris-London in 2020.

Added Jacques Gounon, “We would place the order in 2023 for delivery in 2026.”

HS trains are costly. It’s understood that each train costs between €40 and €50 million.

Finally I am regularly asked about Deutsche Bahn’s plans to operate via the Tunnel to London.

Well Germany’s national operator first applied for a London route in 2010, but trying to circumvent all the rules made DB abandon its plans.

Any thoughts?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Eurostar to finally lose its monopoly? – Business Traveller

Le Parisien reports that Getlink (formerly Eurotunnel) wants to acquire ten new high-speed trains which would be leased to new operators…

www.businesstraveller.com

Any thoughts?

Perhaps Eurostar should buy some trains to compete with Getlink!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Perhaps Eurostar should buy some trains to compete with Getlink!

Why?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Why not?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Why not?

Why would they? They already have a pretty extensive fleet and have a clear monopoly even if another operator got all 10 it would still be smaller than Eurostar.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Why would they? They already have a pretty extensive fleet and have a clear monopoly even if another operator got all 10 it would still be smaller than Eurostar.

I don't see your logic. If it is alright for Getlink to purchase sets to compete with Eurostar (which is in competition with the airlines) I don't see why Eurostar shouldn't compete with Getlink for cars, lorries etc.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't see your logic. If it is alright for Getlink to purchase sets to compete with Eurostar (which is in competition with the airlines) I don't see why Eurostar shouldn't compete with Getlink for cars, lorries etc.

My logical is why would they? They could but i cant see them doing it. Competition is not a bad thing on this London to Paris market. getlink wouldnt be the operators (they own the Channel Tunnel) someone else like Renfe would be of a rival service. I never said they shouldn’t. Eurostar doesnt carry cars and lorries its just passengers cant see them investing in cars and lorry carrying

Getlink plans to rival Eurostar with cross-Channel services

The French company hopes to cater for two to three million extra passengers per year

www.connexionfrance.com

Interesting three key things here noted:

Getlink intends to rent out the trains to partners, with Spanish rail company Renfe in advanced talks with the group.

Mr Gounon, speaking at a press conference, said that he was aiming to carry two to three million extra passengers per year through the Channel Tunnel, a 20% increase on pre-Covid traffic levels.

He wants 10 trains doing four to five round trips each day.

 

[D365]

If nothing else, this is further evidence that there was zero interest from prospective Channel Tunnel operators in taking on Class 373s.

 

[furnessvale]

My logical is why would they? They could but i cant see them doing it. Competition is not a bad thing on this London to Paris market. getlink wouldnt be the operators (they own the Channel Tunnel) someone else like Renfe would be of a rival service. I never said they shouldn’t. Eurostar doesnt carry cars and lorries its just passengers cant see them investing in cars and lorry carrying

Getlink own the tunnel and loading facilities. Whilst they have an obligation to accept other trains through the tunnel, at a considerable price to potential operators, they have no such obligation to share the loading facilities.

 

[zwk500]

Competition is not a bad thing on this London to Paris market.

Competition would be a very good thing on this market.

Interesting three key things here noted:

Is there capacity on HS1 and LGV Nord for these extra services?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Competition would be a very good thing on this market.

Is there capacity on HS1 and LGV Nord for these extra services?

I agree it would and is needed.

Yes there is i believe thats why Renfe were interested because there is capacity in the Channel Tunnel at least and i think HS1.

Getlink own the tunnel and loading facilities. Whilst they have an obligation to accept other trains through the tunnel, at a considerable price to potential operators, they have no such obligation to share the loading facilities.

Ah thats true i just couldnt see why Eurostar would order more trains which seems to be the other person's point.

 

[cle]

I agree it would and is needed.

Yes there is i believe thats why Renfe were interested because there is capacity in the Channel Tunnel at least and i think HS1.



Ah thats true i just couldnt see why Eurostar would order more trains which seems to be the other person's point.

The other person was implying Eurostar compete on the 'on car' services, I believe - i.e. reciprocate the challenge to 'Eurotunnel'.

On the car front, I think a motorail type thing - maybe on slower legacy French routes, would be brilliant too. I'm not sure where it could unload, but imagine one to Aix or so (covers a lot) and another around Bordeaux.

And London-Paris could definitely stand up some competition. As might some other routes - or new ones/new pairs (more Kent, Lille-AMS perhaps), providing the usual passport/customs issue has a solve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The car shuttle has competitors - the ferries.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The other person was implying Eurostar compete on the 'on car' services, I believe - i.e. reciprocate the challenge to 'Eurotunnel'.

On the car front, I think a motorail type thing - maybe on slower legacy French routes, would be brilliant too. I'm not sure where it could unload, but imagine one to Aix or so (covers a lot) and another around Bordeaux.

And London-Paris could definitely stand up some competition. As might some other routes - or new ones/new pairs (more Kent, Lille-AMS perhaps), providing the usual passport/customs issue has a solve.

ah ok cant see them doing that. I think whats likely to happen is Renfe to be the one that competes on a London to Paris market, which would be welcomed.

 

[zwk500]

And London-Paris could definitely stand up some competition. As might some other routes - or new ones/new pairs (more Kent, Lille-AMS perhaps), providing the usual passport/customs issue has a solve.

The customs issue requires juxtaposed controls for political reasons which are unlikely to change soon, so the cost of setting them up means you need a destination that will handle a reasonable number of departures. More Kent and more Lille stops would be very welcome though.

 

[rvdborgt]

I think whats likely to happen is Renfe to be the one that competes on a London to Paris market, which would be welcomed.

RENFE will need to brush up their customer friendliness quite a bit if they want to be even a bit successful.

 

[HSTEd]

So Getlink is desperate to get competition up and running so they can get a lucrative bidding war for paths like they are Heathrow.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So Getlink is desperate to get competition up and running so they can get a lucrative bidding war for paths like they are Heathrow.

Competition is not a bad thing

 

[Bald Rick]

The car shuttle has competitors - the ferries.

Eurostar has competition - Airlines.

 

[D6130]

The car shuttle has competitors - the ferries.

Perhaps not for much longer, the way things are going with P & O.

 

[gordonthemoron]

If Renfe do enter the cross channel High Speed market, where will their trains terminate, in the UK and in Paris. If it's a Quigo setup, will it be out of the way?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If Renfe do enter the cross channel High Speed market, where will their trains terminate, in the UK and in Paris. If it's a Quigo setup, will it be out of the way?

Presumably London St Pancras and Paris Gare du Nord

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eurostar has competition - Airlines.

Indeed it does, which is why I don't get why people get so hung up on wanting an on-rail competitor.

Same with the rest of rail - the competitors are car and air, and so petty spats over individual routes are not of benefit. (Stuff like LNR vs. Avanti aren't really competition, but rather are offering two different value propositions to grow the market - often companies do it to themselves - e.g. TGV vs Ouigo, Stagecoach and Magic Bus etc).

I suppose there would be room for a low-cost Chunnel passenger operation, but the way the fees are charged would make it difficult to make viable.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Indeed it does, which is why I don't get why people get so hung up on wanting an on-rail competitor.

Same with the rest of rail - the competitors are car and air, and so petty spats over individual routes are not of benefit. (Stuff like LNR vs. Avanti aren't really competition, but rather are offering two different value propositions to grow the market - often companies do it to themselves - e.g. TGV vs Ouigo, Stagecoach and Magic Bus etc).

airlines have direct competitors with each other why shouldn't rail on the same market?

 

[Bletchleyite]

airlines have direct competitors with each other why shouldn't rail on the same market?

Because the air isn't a particularly limited resource?

But if you think about it, it'd actually be better to have two-hourly flights by one company than the same number but all clustered together so they can spat with one another.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I do think a Budget version of Eurostar maybe a good idea maybe as you said Eurostar could launch a budget version but i doubt this will happen so it may have to be a different operator

 

[cle]

Eurostar has competition - Airlines.

Came down to say this.

Why shouldn't rail have competition, especially on services where hospitality/variables might matter more - like an airline - and with new markets to test or stopping patterns to try. It's like airlines owning runways, and they don't.

The CDG station could be another option. Or Disney - as a Paris railhead - and then onwards down to wherever. There is plenty to consider, even if not too much is ready to go.

Eurostar might even welcome sharing some of the outstation costs in some cases. Could make AMS more viable, or Geneva which I think has similar biz/leisure mix potential, and would need investment. Perhaps they're desperate to give up Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais too, and someone else can slot in on those? Or look at Koln/Frankfurt again?

Barcelona has to be the long long longer term play - haven't RENFE and SNCF fallen out too?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barcelona is too far. Koeln is probably worth a go, but before long electric aircraft will once again kill the really long distance railway off, and this time it'll be hard to argue why someone should accept a 10 hour journey over a 2 hour one.

 

[zwk500]

The CDG station could be another option. Or Disney - as a Paris railhead - and then onwards down to wherever. There is plenty to consider, even if not too much is ready to go.

Eurostar might even welcome sharing some of the outstation costs in some cases. Could make AMS more viable, or Geneva which I think has similar biz/leisure mix potential, and would need investment. Perhaps they're desperate to give up Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais too, and someone else can slot in on those? Or look at Koln/Frankfurt again?

Barcelona has to be the long long longer term play - haven't RENFE and SNCF fallen out too?

Unless there is a monumental shift in the political climate, Juxtaposed border controls will continue to be a requirement of any permanent service through the Channel Tunnel. Building and operating a border checkpoint will require a minimum service to make it viable. Given the connections available at Paris, Cologne is the only destination I can see really having a case for all-day direct trains to/from the UK. If a stop could be integrated into a station in the Paris area then maybe destinations like Bordeaux and Barcelona could do checks on the move, with the stop at Charles De Gaulle or Disneyland to turf people off who aren't allowed into the UK. However this stop will need to be kept short to avoid losing too much time on the headline figures to London.

 

[d70g]

If Renfe do enter the cross channel High Speed market, where will their trains terminate, in the UK and in Paris. If it's a Quigo setup, will it be out of the way?

Does the infrastructure currently exist for an inbound train from the Channel Tunnel to terminate somewhere other than LSP or an HS1 station?