Will Eurostar get competition? Getlink plans to purchase 10 sets for use by rivals for Channel Tunnel

[Bald Rick]

I do think a Budget version of Eurostar maybe a good idea maybe as you said Eurostar could launch a budget version but i doubt this will happen so it may have to be a different operator

The budget version of Eurostar exists - it’s called Eurostar. They lose money on the cheapest tickets, as in sell them at less than the marginal cost price.

Does the infrastructure currently exist for an inbound train from the Channel Tunnel to terminate somewhere other than LSP or an HS1 station?

Assuming you mean a passenger train, no.

 

[cle]

Unless there is a monumental shift in the political climate, Juxtaposed border controls will continue to be a requirement of any permanent service through the Channel Tunnel. Building and operating a border checkpoint will require a minimum service to make it viable. Given the connections available at Paris, Cologne is the only destination I can see really having a case for all-day direct trains to/from the UK. If a stop could be integrated into a station in the Paris area then maybe destinations like Bordeaux and Barcelona could do checks on the move, with the stop at Charles De Gaulle or Disneyland to turf people off who aren't allowed into the UK. However this stop will need to be kept short to avoid losing too much time on the headline figures to London.

I think Disney is more of a destination ex-UK, and has the set-up... but from, for example Switzerland or the South of France, northbound, CDG is a solid destination and might enable dual-sale of a seat.

If checks were done on platform, and then on train - you would always pad in 5-10 to be able to kick anyone off at Calais/Lille.

For me, Geneva has more demand than Cologne, but it's a further ride. Bordeaux would be very seasonal. Maybe more Lyon is possible. We always think ex-London/ex-UK, but Europeans coming to London is also a huge point of sale, and growth opportunity - more so i'd say inbound.

 

[Bald Rick]

For me, Geneva has more demand than Cologne, but it's a further ride. Bordeaux would be very seasonal. Maybe more Lyon is possible. We always think ex-London/ex-UK, but Europeans coming to London is also a huge point of sale, and growth opportunity - more so i'd say inbound.

Lyon has relatively little UK traffic, the only reason the Eurostars serve it is because it is en route to Provence and Marseille.

I have said many times in other threads, but Geneva is the next biggest ‘year round’ market in range for Eurostar. 20+ flights each way a day, nearer 30 at weekends in ski season. Some at very high yields. Try getting a flight to Geneva a week on Saturday before tea time and you’re looking at nearly £300 minimum, and for some flights more than twice that. I’m genuinely a little surprised Eurostar (or another) hasn’t had a go at it, even if just an out and back on winter Saturdays which they could comfortably fill at £150 a head one way, ie revenue of around £200k for a return trip.

Bordeaux would work for summer weekends too. Köln possibly as an occasional extension from Brussels.

That’s it it really for direct service opportunities. Everywhere else is too far or has too little traffic. (Frankfurt would have been a possibility had business travel not evaporated).

Of course if the U.K. government would have us join Schengen, then we’d just be part of the wider European network, and there would be services to all sorts of places in the 5-8 hour range.

 

[zwk500]

Of course if the U.K. government would have us join Schengen, then we’d just be part of the wider European network, and there would be services to all sorts of places in the 5-8 hour range.

I would love to see it, but it would be a political earthquake of apocalyptic proportions to happen in the next 10 years...

 

[route101]

Would a low cost service work or a service that you can turn up and go?

 

[cle]

Lyon has relatively little UK traffic, the only reason the Eurostars serve it is because it is en route to Provence and Marseille.

I have said many times in other threads, but Geneva is the next biggest ‘year round’ market in range for Eurostar. 20+ flights each way a day, nearer 30 at weekends in ski season. Some at very high yields. Try getting a flight to Geneva a week on Saturday before tea time and you’re looking at nearly £300 minimum, and for some flights more than twice that. I’m genuinely a little surprised Eurostar (or another) hasn’t had a go at it, even if just an out and back on winter Saturdays which they could comfortably fill at £150 a head one way, ie revenue of around £200k for a return trip.

Bordeaux would work for summer weekends too. Köln possibly as an occasional extension from Brussels.

That’s it it really for direct service opportunities. Everywhere else is too far or has too little traffic. (Frankfurt would have been a possibility had business travel not evaporated).

Of course if the U.K. government would have us join Schengen, then we’d just be part of the wider European network, and there would be services to all sorts of places in the 5-8 hour range.

See I think that Koln is a tiny market compared to Frankfurt - but obviously it's closer. And so they probably wouldn't work without the other.

Assuming they would non-stop Nord, Liege and Aachen, which I don't think anything does - they would also offer the quickest Brussels-Germany journey times too (sell a seat twice). It could be 2h45 which could then be looking like close to ~5h30 for London-Frankfurt and ~4h20 for Koln.

It might even offer Lille-Germany services for the first time, if that was of interest and worth the stopping penalty. Same as Lille-Rott/Amsterdam, if ever seen as worthwhile. But the non-stop Brussels run is also important for the end to end journey times.

 

[Bald Rick]

Assuming they would non-stop Nord, Liege and Aachen, which I don't think anything does - they would also offer the quickest Brussels-Germany journey times too (sell a seat twice). It could be 2h45 which could then be looking like close to ~5h30 for London-Frankfurt and ~4h20 for Koln.

it would be quicker than that. It’s 4h15 to Köln / 5h30 to Frankfurt Hbf now, including the change at Bruxelles M, and stops at Nord, Liege and Aachen. (I presume the latter is still required now for the voltage / frequency changeover, although that is going soon).

a through train without those three stops would be at least 20 mins quicker, probably 30.

I agree Köln is a smaller market, but a fair bit is on the rails already. Around 70 or so passengers per connection IIRC. That’s consistent with my observations when I’ve done it.

Frankfurt is of course largely business, and/or transfer traffic. Even with the direct link to Frankfurt airport that a through service would provide, I can’t see many transfer passengers using it, with a 4h45 journey time from London at best.

 

[notadriver]

Who would employ the on board staff in such a scenario. Le shuttle drivers are paid very poorly by uk standards.

 

[popeter45]

if bought as 200m train sets and if the issues for such a configuration are solvable somthing like a Brussels split for Amsterdam and Frankfurt?, cant see a large enough market for a 400m Train but maybe a 200m unit to Frankfurt?

 

[Wolfie]

I do think a Budget version of Eurostar maybe a good idea maybe as you said Eurostar could launch a budget version but i doubt this will happen so it may have to be a different operator

The major obstacle to that is the charges that Getlink levy. If they offer lower rates to a new competitor l imagine that Eurostar would quite rightly litigate.

Of course if the U.K. government would have us join Schengen, then we’d just be part of the wider European network, and there would be services to all sorts of places in the 5-8 hour range.

You have to be in the EU or EFTA to be in Schengen. There would have to be some significant changes in UK - BREXIT continuing to go from bad to worse - for that to happen any time soon.

 

[cle]

it would be quicker than that. It’s 4h15 to Köln / 5h30 to Frankfurt Hbf now, including the change at Bruxelles M, and stops at Nord, Liege and Aachen. (I presume the latter is still required now for the voltage / frequency changeover, although that is going soon).

a through train without those three stops would be at least 20 mins quicker, probably 30.

I agree Köln is a smaller market, but a fair bit is on the rails already. Around 70 or so passengers per connection IIRC. That’s consistent with my observations when I’ve done it.

Frankfurt is of course largely business, and/or transfer traffic. Even with the direct link to Frankfurt airport that a through service would provide, I can’t see many transfer passengers using it, with a 4h45 journey time from London at best.

Ahh so even quicker, interesting. Might Koln sneak under 4h? And Frankfurt 4h59? That's a good story to tell, if so.

I could see Europeans making the trip to London (and the quicker Brussels demand) - they might have a higher tolerance for a longer train journey? It seems like 3h30-4h is the tipping point for the UK.

 

[Wolfie]

The customs issue requires juxtaposed controls for political reasons which are unlikely to change soon, so the cost of setting them up means you need a destination that will handle a reasonable number of departures. More Kent and more Lille stops would be very welcome though.

It is more immigration than customs but otherwise you are spot on.

Presumably London St Pancras and Paris Gare du Nord

I'm sure that the UK government would be accommodating. Given the ownership of Eurostar the French government perhaps less so.

Unless there is a monumental shift in the political climate, Juxtaposed border controls will continue to be a requirement of any permanent service through the Channel Tunnel. Building and operating a border checkpoint will require a minimum service to make it viable. Given the connections available at Paris, Cologne is the only destination I can see really having a case for all-day direct trains to/from the UK. If a stop could be integrated into a station in the Paris area then maybe destinations like Bordeaux and Barcelona could do checks on the move, with the stop at Charles De Gaulle or Disneyland to turf people off who aren't allowed into the UK. However this stop will need to be kept short to avoid losing too much time on the headline figures to London.

Border Force have been consistently clear in saying that they won't do checks on the move. Doing so is less secure and would be expensive and demanding in staff resources - who is paying?

 

[Bald Rick]

You have to be in the EU or EFTA to be in Schengen. There would have to be some significant changes in UK - BREXIT continuing to go from bad to worse - for that to happen any time soon.

I agree it won’t happen. Which is a shame. Some might say pathetic.

Ahh so even quicker, interesting. Might Koln sneak under 4h? And Frankfurt 4h59? That's a good story to tell, if so.

Köln would definitely be under 4h, Frankfurt would likely still be over 5, although Frankfurt airport might be sub 5.

Geneva would be a shade over 5h.

 

[RT4038]

Border Force have been consistently clear in saying that they won't do checks on the move. Doing so is less secure and would be expensive and demanding in staff resources - who is paying?

Need to take a step back and do some thinking - UK Border Force officials boarding a train in Bordeaux or somewhere (probably require six or so to check the passports, including a senior, and a reserve to deal with any issues). Stopping at CdG or Disneyland to disembark any not correctly documented. Might even need some heavies there too. Won't get any help from the French authorities. Travel back passenger in another train. Probably only do one train in a shift, all on foreign service allowances and board. Probably cost £50+ per passport examined, to be added to the fares. Need a sense check here! Not going to happen.

 

[rvdborgt]

it would be quicker than that. It’s 4h15 to Köln / 5h30 to Frankfurt Hbf now, including the change at Bruxelles M, and stops at Nord, Liege and Aachen. (I presume the latter is still required now for the voltage / frequency changeover, although that is going soon).

a through train without those three stops would be at least 20 mins quicker, probably 30.

More like 10, maybe 15.

 

[Bald Rick]

More like 10, maybe 15.

easily 10 at Brussels alone by making the current 20min connection a through service, and around 5 at each of the others (they are 2-3 minutes dwell at each).

 

[Howardh]

The major obstacle to that is the charges that Getlink levy. If they offer lower rates to a new competitor l imagine that Eurostar would quite rightly litigate.


You have to be in the EU or EFTA to be in Schengen. There would have to be some significant changes in UK - BREXIT continuing to go from bad to worse - for that to happen any time soon.

To put my pedant's hat on, technically no. Gibraltar is expected to join the Schengen area but, as far as I'm aware, won't be in the EU, EFTA or EEA (I'm assuming not the EEA!). Switzerland is technically in EFTA but takes no part in the EEA. Yes, me neither.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To put my pedant's hat on, technically no. Gibraltar is expected to join the Schengen area but, as far as I'm aware, won't be in the EU, EFTA or EEA (I'm assuming not the EEA!). Switzerland is technically in EFTA but takes no part in the EEA. Yes, me neither.

I don't support the UK joining Schengen as it will weaken the security of our national borders, and it wouldn't do anything for the security requirements for the Tunnel either. I would however be unsurprised were the UK an EFTA member within 10 years. It is still "leave" but solves most of the issues.

 

[Howardh]

I don't support the UK joining Schengen as it will weaken the security of our national borders, and it wouldn't do anything for the security requirements for the Tunnel either. I would however be unsurprised were the UK an EFTA member within 10 years. It is still "leave" but solves most of the issues.

At risk of going off-topic; but kinda related to Eurostar in a way, the UK government have decided that any non UK/Irish citizens must complete a transit form to travel between The Republic (EU) and the UK - a bit like the ETIAS but coming to the UK. So are we having a hard border and also having Eurostar-style checks as you board a train between the two?

Of course not! So how's it gonna be policed? It isn't! More government Brexit dimwittery of course.

Back on topic, with lengthy security queues (2-3hrs) at Manchester Airport for the forseeable future, Eurostar should be advertising up here in the North West as I'm sure Avanti + Eurostar could get you to Brussels or Paris faster than flying at the moment.

For me - 1.5hr home to Airport + 2hr security queue, spare 0.5hr to the gate, 1.5hr flight + 0.5 through immigration then 0.5hr to the city centres...6-and-a-half hours. Can that be done on Avanti/Eurostar including the change at Euston/St Pancras? How long does security and immigration take on Eurostar post-covid?

Need to take a step back and do some thinking - UK Border Force officials boarding a train in Bordeaux or somewhere (probably require six or so to check the passports, including a senior, and a reserve to deal with any issues). Stopping at CdG or Disneyland to disembark any not correctly documented. Might even need some heavies there too. Won't get any help from the French authorities. Travel back passenger in another train. Probably only do one train in a shift, all on foreign service allowances and board. Probably cost £50+ per passport examined, to be added to the fares. Need a sense check here! Not going to happen.

Two sets of officials required, the French border force and then the British. The French would have to stamp all our passports, not easy on a moving train!

Theoretically, if you have a route A - B - C and A+B are in France and C the UK, you COULD start the checks after station B but you have the problem I refer to. Also if a domestic pax inadvertantly passes station B and has little documentation, how do the officials deal with that?

Pre EU/Schengen I have boarded trains crossing European borders, occasionally officials came on to check, basically a glance at your passport, but in those days they were pretty lax. While Schengen means thay have gone now, the EU/UK border is severely controlled.

Apart from the UK/Irish one of course!

 

[zwk500]

Back on topic, with lengthy security queues (2-3hrs) at Manchester Airport for the forseeable future, Eurostar should be advertising up here in the North West as I'm sure Avanti + Eurostar could get you to Brussels or Paris faster than flying at the moment.

For me - 1.5hr home to Airport + 2hr security queue, spare 0.5hr to the gate, 1.5hr flight + 0.5 through immigration then 0.5hr to the city centres...6-and-a-half hours. Can that be done on Avanti/Eurostar including the change at Euston/St Pancras? How long does security and immigration take on Eurostar post-covid?

Just last weekend for busy trains (england playing France in the six nations) I checked in on Saturday approximately 1hr beforehand and security took all of 15/20 mins. The return on sudnay evening we checked in about 1.5hr before hand and security took 20-30 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What on earth airport are you using that has a two hour security queue? Not any that I have used. I think about 20 minutes is the longest I have waited but for one occasion*, and it is mostly less than that.

* Luton, once, years ago. A blockage on the M1 and a railway problem were sorted at exactly the same time, resulting in a massive number of people arriving at once and a queue out of the door. But even that was only about an hour, and they were doing well at going down the queue pulling people forward for specific flights so they didn't miss them.

 

[Howardh]

What on earth airport are you using that has a two hour security queue? Not any that I have used. I think about 20 minutes is the longest I have waited but for one occasion*, and it is mostly less than that.

* Luton, once, years ago. A blockage on the M1 and a railway problem were sorted at exactly the same time, resulting in a massive number of people arriving at once and a queue out of the door. But even that was only about an hour, and they were doing well at going down the queue pulling people forward for specific flights so they didn't miss them.

Manchester, week before last. Took many passengers a lot longer, at first the airport blamed it on the passengers - too much wrong stuff in the bags causing delays - and (unbelievably) more pax turning up than expected (!!!). In reality it was that they were/are totally understaffed and couldn't cope, which they have now admitted and (a) have told pax to expect delays for the forseeable future and that (b) they are attempting to take on more staff in the meantime.

However, I flew out on Monday afternoon, and was through with fast-track within 10 mins, and even those without fast-track were through in 15.

Liverpool airport and Eurostar...fill yer boots!!

Manchester Airport boss warns passengers long queues will continue for 'weeks'

Manchester Airport has been plagued by huge queues and delays recently

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Passengers at Manchester Airport could face queues for ‘several weeks’ to come as bosses admit they are struggling with staff shortages amid a surge in international travel. The hub is on a major recruitment drive to remedy the crisis - even looking to 'work with universities' to find temporary hires - but they have warned long waits could continue well into April.

Karen Smart, managing director of Manchester Airport, said: “We want to apologise to all our customers who have experienced disruption over the last couple of weeks.

“We want to be clear with our customers that getting back to full strength is going to take time and there will unfortunately be periods over the next few weeks when it will take longer to get through the airport than it should.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester, week before last. Took many passengers a lot longer, at first the airport blamed it on the passengers - too much wrong stuff in the bags causing delays - and (unbelievably) more pax turning up than expected (!!!). In reality it was that they were/are totally understaffed and couldn't cope, which they have now admitted and (a) have told pax to expect delays for the forseeable future and that (b) they are attempting to take on more staff in the meantime.

In which case that airport is not fit for purpose and needs fixing. In the meantime people should harm their income by avoiding it. There is simply no excuse.

 

[cle]

I flew from Manchester to NYC a few weeks back, it was horrific even in the more scheduled/long haul terminal. Multiple vfr flights to Asia (lots of luggage, older folks, less-seasoned travellers) and some quite mean hand luggage people - and like 2 lanes (which is really the point). It was bad.

Mixed in with various biz flights to AMS, CDG, Germany and hand luggage only types used to a slick experience through security - was tense.

Better on the train! Although St P is ostensibly an airport experience.

 

[Howardh]

In which case that airport is not fit for purpose and needs fixing. In the meantime people should harm their income by avoiding it. There is simply no excuse.

Think the airside shop owners have been in their ears, high rents and pax not buying as they have no time. The old quote, if you're queuing you ain't spending.
So MIA's income is hit that way I suppose.

 

[takno]

Think the airside shop owners have been in their ears, high rents and pax not buying as they have no time. The old quote, if you're queuing you ain't spending.
So MIA's income is hit that way I suppose.

I suspect the airside shop owners are all in favour of the occasional massive queue I'm security. If people are scared into turning up 2 hours early and then mostly get through security in 15 minutes, then they will have nothing to do airside other than spend spend spend

 

[30907]

Lyon has relatively little UK traffic, the only reason the Eurostars serve it is because it is en route to Provence and Marseille.

I have said many times in other threads, but Geneva is the next biggest ‘year round’ market in range for Eurostar. 20+ flights each way a day, nearer 30 at weekends in ski season. Some at very high yields. Try getting a flight to Geneva a week on Saturday before tea time and you’re looking at nearly £300 minimum, and for some flights more than twice that. I’m genuinely a little surprised Eurostar (or another) hasn’t had a go at it, even if just an out and back on winter Saturdays which they could comfortably fill at £150 a head one way, ie revenue of around £200k for a return trip.

How much Geneva traffic is actually headed for the French Alps, though, in the absence of a convenient French airport? ES has historically served the area direct, and will presumably do so again.

 

[YorksLad12]

Two sets of officials required, the French border force and then the British. The French would have to stamp all our passports, not easy on a moving train!

Nah, you just need something like a hole punch, but with a stamp. Slide passport page(s) in, press lever, slide passport out. I mean, we;ve had conductors stamp tickets on the move for decades now...

The issue really is the UK governments over the years insisting on doing the checks the way they want to. I think I had my passport checked once on an early Eurostar trip to Brussels (1997) but that's it.

 

[Bald Rick]

How much Geneva traffic is actually headed for the French Alps, though, in the absence of a convenient French airport? ES has historically served the area direct, and will presumably do so again.

Plenty. But Eurostar only serves one small part of the French Alps (Three Valleys, La Plagne, and the areas accessible from Bourg St Maurice), and that is a 2-3 hour drive from Geneva minimum, usually more on winter Saturdays. (It’s taken me 5hours in the past). Hence people going to that part of the Alps will often fly to Grenoble or Chambery in preference to Geneva. Or use the direct train of course.

For those heading to the Alsp around Morzine, Chatel, Chamonix, Verbier, Megeve, Flaine, etc etc the direct Eurostar is no use.

And there is a high level of year round traffic London - Geneva, it’s not all about Alps traffic.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The new line in Geneva linking Cornavin main station and Annemasse in France also makes accessing the Haute-Savoie ski resorts by train a lot easier. Previously it was an awkward change of stations in the city - and Eaux Vives was shut for a long time whilst rebuilding was underway. The Geneva tramway has also been extented to Annemasse, although not (yet) to the station.

Geneva itself is very dull (and hideously expensive), but it would very conveniently plug you into the Swiss network (and Italy, Austria and beyond).