Will HS2 use TVM430?

[Archie810]

Something that has crossed my mind is what signalling system HS2 will use. I assume it will be TVM430 to make it compatible with HS1 as well as providing the option for Eurostar services to travel further north into the UK.

 

[stuu]

Something that has crossed my mind is what signalling system HS2 will use. I assume it will be TVM430 to make it compatible with HS1 as well as providing the option for Eurostar services to travel further north into the UK.

No, it will use ETCS Level 2.

There will be absolutely no through trains from HS1, the link was dropped ~10 years ago

 

[hexagon789]

Something that has crossed my mind is what signalling system HS2 will use. I assume it will be TVM430 to make it compatible with HS1 as well as providing the option for Eurostar services to travel further north into the UK.

It'll be ETCS, no intention of compatibility with HS1 AFAIAA.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

SNCF (and essentially everybody else in Europe) is installing ETCS on new HS lines.
At some point the TVM430 system (LGV Nord-Channel Tunnel-London) will convert to ETCS, but there's no rush.

Equally important is NR installing ETCS on classic routes that HS2 trains will use.
There's no plan for Eurostar trains to use HS2 or anywhere on NR beyond HS1.
Class 92 is an interesting anomaly in that scenario.

 

[lammergeier]

Is the plan still for ATO overlay?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the plan still for ATO overlay?

Yes, ETCS L2 (minimum) with ATO.

 

[D365]

Class 92 is an interesting anomaly in that scenario.

I'm not sure which painted numbers are included in the East Coast ETCS fitments, but I assume that the ETCS installation designs for Class 92 will interface with the TVM430.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure which painted numbers are included in the East Coast ETCS fitments, but I assume that the ETCS installation designs for Class 92 will interface with the TVM430.

Well the French must have a solution given LGV-Est has TVM and ETCS L2 sections.

 

[D365]

Well the French must have a solution given LGV-Est has TVM and ETCS L2 sections.

They won't want to share their secrets with Siemens!

 

[lammergeier]

Yes, ETCS L2 (minimum) with ATO.

Ta, thought as much. Makes sense for a brand new railway.

 

[matacaster]

Bobby with flags?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not sure which painted numbers are included in the East Coast ETCS fitments, but I assume that the ETCS installation designs for Class 92 will interface with the TVM430.

I was thinking in terms of class 92 having ETCS fitted and therefore being able to operate on NR, HS1/Eurotunnel and eventually HS2.
Or maybe not.

 

[zwk500]

I was thinking in terms of class 92 having ETCS fitted and therefore being able to operate on NR, HS1/Eurotunnel and eventually HS2.
Or maybe not.

I don't know of any intention to use 92s on HS2, given the lack of connections onto it for freight. The IMD connection off EWR won't be wired.

92s will presumably have ETCS fitted at some point, but HS2 won't be part of it.

 

[hwl]

Something that has crossed my mind is what signalling system HS2 will use. I assume it will be TVM430 to make it compatible with HS1 as well as providing the option for Eurostar services to travel further north into the UK.

HS1 will being getting ETCS retrofitted (semi/partially) as TVM is gradually getting retired and replaced and this will happen before HS2 opens (as are the existing French LGV). But it is all academic as others have said as there is no Eurostar link

 

[zwk500]

HS1 will being getting ETCS retrofitted (semi/partially) as TVM is gradually getting retired and replaced and this will happen before HS2 opens (as are the existing French LGV). But it is all academic as others have said as there is no Eurostar link

This rail engineer article: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/upgrading-the-continental-connection/ from 2018 gives the following dates:

Service introduction in France and the Tunnel is anticipated by 2025, in Belgium by 2030 and on HS1 by 2032.

Given COVID, it can be safely assumed that this programme has slipped slightly.

 

[mr_moo]

Bobby with flags?

 

[hwl]

This rail engineer article: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/upgrading-the-continental-connection/ from 2018 gives the following dates:

Given COVID, it can be safely assumed that this programme has slipped slightly.

Agreed, but there is also cost incentive to deal with obsolescence and end of life / beyond end of life in many cases on the older LGV and rolling stock lifecycles. Delivery as near to original plan saves quiet a bit compared to delay so I wouldn't expect huge slippage.

 

[MarkyT]

I'm not sure which painted numbers are included in the East Coast ETCS fitments, but I assume that the ETCS installation designs for Class 92 will interface with the TVM430.

New European rolling stock tends to be built with 'native' ETCS capability integrated tightly with the train management and traction control systems, then older legacy protection systems are emulated using the ETCS onboard computer and cab displays. It's plausible with a retrofit that an entire parallel system might be provided for ETCS with the complete legacy onboard installation for the older system(s) retained as well, and a means for safely and reliably switching between them devised.

 

[zwk500]

Agreed, but there is also cost incentive to deal with obsolescence and end of life / beyond end of life in many cases on the older LGV and rolling stock lifecycles. Delivery as near to original plan saves quiet a bit compared to delay so I wouldn't expect huge slippage.

100%. Although designing a train for TVM + ETCS isn't hard, and French TGVs would need that capability anyway for their legacy systems. The big benefit would be in getting rid of older relay-based interlocking hardware and moving everything to an RBC. I would expect Infrabel to be quite keen on moving HSL-1 to ETCS as well, given the rest of their HS network is on ETCS and a fair amount of the legacy track as well.

 

[MarkyT]

100%. Although designing a train for TVM + ETCS isn't hard, and French TGVs would need that capability anyway for their legacy systems. The big benefit would be in getting rid of older relay-based interlocking hardware and moving everything to an RBC. I would expect Infrabel to be quite keen on moving HSL-1 to ETCS as well, given the rest of their HS network is on ETCS and a fair amount of the legacy track as well.

Quite a lot of Belgium is L1 FS (full supervision), which by definition is overlaid on conventional colour light signalling with whatever underlying interlocking tech that exists, and interfaced at the lineside. Likewise for the L1 LS (limited supervision) lines which I believe are being progressively converted from TBL1+, a virtually nationwide legacy system that was converted to use Eurobalises as a stepping stone to ETCS.

Here's the signalling map from the Infrabel 2023 network statement

Network statement

As a railway company or interested user, you will find all the necessary information about access to and use of the Belgian railway infrastructure in Infrabel's Network Statement.

www.infrabel.be

 

[zwk500]

Quite a lot of Belgium is L1 FS (full supervision), which by definition is overlaid on conventional colour light signalling with whatever underlying interlocking tech that exists, and interfaced at the lineside. Likewise for the L1 LS (limited supervision) lines which I believe are being progressively converted from TBL1+, a virtually nationwide legacy system that was converted to use Eurobalises as a stepping stone to ETCS.

Yes, the Europeans are far happier to got to ETCS L1 only, for various reasons. And yes, TBL1+ was an alteration for TBL specifically to be compatible with ETCS specifications then being drafted.

Here's the signalling map from the Infrabel 2023 network statement

Network statement

As a railway company or interested user, you will find all the necessary information about access to and use of the Belgian railway infrastructure in Infrabel's Network Statement.

www.infrabel.be

Thanks a lot for the map, I've been looking for it for ages but couldn't find it when I looked at the Network Statement

 

[MarkyT]

Yes, the Europeans are far happier to got to ETCS L1 only, for various reasons. And yes, TBL1+ was an alteration for TBL specifically to be compatible with ETCS specifications then being drafted.

There's a lot of cross-border working, particularly freight, for which compatibility of traction can be crucial for cost-effectiveness, so a quick solution for that has been more important than an overall signalling renewal strategy, which has taken the lead more here. Apart from channel tunnel, signalling interoperability for through running to and from the continent isn't really an issue for UK, particularly as loading gauge and traction power are often the bigger issues. European railways are generally installing full level 2 on new lines and on reconstructed mainlines that have very busy traffic profiles. Latest baseline (theoretically) allows modern traction to seamlessly move between these various different levels and modes.

 

[DanNCL]

Equally important is NR installing ETCS on classic routes that HS2 trains will use.

Only if the HS2 fleet won't also be fitted with AWS and TPWS.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only if the HS2 fleet won't also be fitted with AWS and TPWS.

ETCS gives you ATP and bi-di while the others don't, at least to the same degree.
Of course it probably won't happen, and depends whether they are overlaid or not.

 

[zwk500]

Only if the HS2 fleet won't also be fitted with AWS and TPWS.

ETCS gives you ATP and bi-di while the others don't, at least to the same degree.
Of course it probably won't happen, and depends whether they are overlaid or not.

The Spec requires AWS/TPWS fitment, given no HS2-Captive trains will be used: https://assets.publishing.service.g...E-000-000007_P11_TTS_Main_Body__External_.pdf (Page 84 of the PDF, 82 of the document).

 

[Efini92]

Yes, ETCS L2 (minimum) with ATO.

Is it correct that TASS isn’t compatible with ETCS?

 

[43066]

ETCS gives you ATP and bi-di while the others don't, at least to the same degree.
Of course it probably won't happen, and depends whether they are overlaid or not.

There are plenty of bi-di lines on the classic network. ATP yes, but the safety benefit is so marginal that, on its own, it wouldn’t justify ETCS figment

 

[The Planner]

Is it correct that TASS isn’t compatible with ETCS?

If it isnt then you'll lose EPS north of Weaver within a decade.

 

[Efini92]

If it isnt then you'll lose EPS north of Weaver within a decade.

That was my thoughts.

 

[zwk500]

Is it correct that TASS isn’t compatible with ETCS?

There's an RSSB report that suggests it was designed within the then draft standards but doesn't meet the more recent ones, however TASS information can be migrated into a new ETCS scheme