Will the Thameslink Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross Peak-time only service ever return

[andystock22]

The peak time only Thameslink Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross (operated non stop from New Southgate to Finsbury Park) has not operated since March 2020.

Will this service ever return or is it now in the history books?

 

[bramling]

The peak time only Thameslink Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross (operated non stop from New Southgate to Finsbury Park) has not operated since March 2020.

Will this service ever return or is it now in the history books?

My understanding is it will return in May, but in the form of Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks, which has had a couple of false starts.

Given the previous false starts, there has to be an element of “believe it when one sees it”, though!

 

[Failed Unit]

They are driving training with the path now. Often see the 0806 on platform 3 at WGC.

 

[wipeout]

I wonder if the 8 tph peak service that was promised on the Welwyn metro route will ever materialise?

It's on this factsheet that from 2015 but not seen it mentioned anywhere ever since.

 

[andystock22]

The Saturday service of 4 trains lasted for about two weekends on the WGC to Moorgate line in May 2018, before it was cancelled due to driver shortages. They often to struggle to operate 2 trains per hour on Saturdays!

There will be one morning WGC to KGX service from 21 Feb 2022 at 07:32 (calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate and Finsbury Park). This is the first time this service has operated since March 2020!

 

[wipeout]

Yes, I wonder if that promised Saturday service will ever return. At least it was in the timetable. Even in the consultations I never saw the 8 tph for the peaks.

They've only had 8 years to get the drivers that they need, yet they still don't seem to have the drivers to run the pre-2018 service.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I remember this so well. It promised an awful lot that made a lot of sense!

I wonder if the 8 tph peak service that was promised on the Welwyn metro route will ever materialise?

It's on this factsheet that from 2015 but not seen it mentioned anywhere ever since.

 

[jon0844]

The inners are currently struggling in the peaks, with people from Hadley Wood to London finding themselves on crush loaded trains. Four trains per hour to Moorgate from WGC would help, but I think more people would prefer the return of the semi-fast trains that will serve the stations really struggling right now - with the added benefit of serving stations in the core (at least until something goes wrong in the core or south of the river).

I am not sure if even with many people returning to work that there's demand for 8tph (2tph King's Cross, 2tph Sevenoaks and 4tph to Moorgate) quite yet, or for some time.

Clearly more trains need to be running ASAP, not waiting until the summer timetable.

 

[wipeout]

Well no wonder, currently the timetable is 1/3 of the 2019 peak timetable (..and 1/4 of the timetable that was promised.. although I agree that it may not be needed post-covid). Yes, I know some staff may need to self isolate but I can't imagine its anywhere near 2/3 of staff.

There shouldn't be any crushed loaded trains right now. Also whilst social distancing is not legally required, we're still in the middle of a pandemic so people should keep as far apart as possible.

 

[717001]

The revised timetable from 21/2 shows 4tph in the peaks WGC to/from Moorgate. Hopefully the driver training will lead to the introduction of the peak WGC - Sevenoaks service in May, but it'll presumably need DfT / HM Treasury approval.

 

[Failed Unit]

The inners are currently struggling in the peaks, with people from Hadley Wood to London finding themselves on crush loaded trains. Four trains per hour to Moorgate from WGC would help, but I think more people would prefer the return of the semi-fast trains that will serve the stations really struggling right now - with the added benefit of serving stations in the core (at least until something goes wrong in the core or south of the river).

I am not sure if even with many people returning to work that there's demand for 8tph (2tph King's Cross, 2tph Sevenoaks and 4tph to Moorgate) quite yet, or for some time.

Clearly more trains need to be running ASAP, not waiting until the summer timetable.

Must admit, I am not sure myself which I would prefer right now if I had the choice of the metro service getting restored fully (4tph off-peak) or the WGC - London Kings Cross service.

I have noticed a lot more people are changing at Finsbury Park onto the Thamelink service from both the Hertford lines and the WGC Branch.

I am not sure if they are Northern Line exiles that are heading to change onto the tube at either Blackfriars and London Bridge, but it has surprised me how many people are using Thameslink from Finsbury Park now (my last observation was from a Cambridge - Kings Cross service where people north of Stevenage could have used alternatives or changed at Stevenage). I think that if the WGC - Sevenoaks services happens a lot of people including myself will be using it as their preferred service. Not sure if I will walk along the Thames to my destination or change at for London Bridge, but will certainly experiment.

Speaking to people the half hourly service is putting them off going into the office, not because of the overcrowding, but more because if they miss a train they have 30 minutes to wait until the next one. Sharing your observation if a train get cancelled now, people are getting left behind at the Southern end of the route.

 

[SE%Traveller]

The Saturday service of 4 trains lasted for about two weekends on the WGC to Moorgate line in May 2018, before it was cancelled due to driver shortages. They often to struggle to operate 2 trains per hour on Saturdays!

There will be one morning WGC to KGX service from 21 Feb 2022 at 07:32 (calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate and Finsbury Park). This is the first time this service has operated since March 2020!

that's two weeks more than they managed on the Bromely South Lines!

Local Campaign Groups were updated as per below in November 2018, so implied May 2020 but then Covid happened. As you say getting them to return to 4 TPH the priority....

Q: What is happening with the weekend services? Why are there still only two an hour?

Thameslink: In order to fix the issues in May, it was important to put the focus into the weekday timetables and ensure we can deliver this service safely and robustly. In addition to this, there are more engineering works that need to be completed over the weekends between now and the end of 2019. Once these have been completed we will be in a position to deliver 4 trains an hour on Saturdays and Sundays.
Four Trains Per Hour Insight

 

[The exile]

Must admit, I am not sure myself which I would prefer right now if I had the choice of the metro service getting restored fully (4tph off-peak) or the WGC - London Kings Cross service.

I have noticed a lot more people are changing at Finsbury Park onto the Thamelink service from both the Hertford lines and the WGC Branch.

I am not sure if they are Northern Line exiles that are heading to change onto the tube at either Blackfriars and London Bridge, but it has surprised me how many people are using Thameslink from Finsbury Park now (my last observation was from a Cambridge - Kings Cross service where people north of Stevenage could have used alternatives or changed at Stevenage). I think that if the WGC - Sevenoaks services happens a lot of people including myself will be using it as their preferred service. Not sure if I will walk along the Thames to my destination or change at for London Bridge, but will certainly experiment.

Speaking to people the half hourly service is putting them off going into the office, not because of the overcrowding, but more because if they miss a train they have 30 minutes to wait until the next one. Sharing your observation if a train get cancelled now, people are getting left behind at the Southern end of the route.

As a non-Londoner, my heart bleeds for them. Welcome to the “world beyond”!

 

[Failed Unit]

As a non-Londoner, my heart bleeds for them. Welcome to the “world beyond”!

As some that uses rural services myself, they need some kind of compromise. I know the pain of missing a connection and have a 2 hour wait until the next train, which is why people only use the train in such areas if they have not choice. Sadly - as you know I don't think now we have any chance of seeing some of these areas even getting hourly. But they have got used to high frequency, where as the rural areas sadly have got used to little or nothing so they drive everywhere.

 

[The exile]

There’s plenty of “non-London” that isn’t rural - including some bits where traffic congestion puts London into the shade, but where local travel opportunities get cut back because it’s important that people get to London a few minutes quicker.

 

[172101]

North of St Pancras on the Bedford side is really terrible at the momment. It did have 10 tph off peak on weekdays and now it only has 7 tph, but never mind it still has 10 on Saturdays and 8 on Sundays. The good thing is you can always a seat as well, sometime a whole carriage.

 

[wipeout]

Not familar with how busy that line is as to whether 7 tph is appropriate but atleast with that if there is one cancellation there is only 18 minutes between trains and then the next one follows 8-9 mins later.

With 2 tph, 1 cancellation means an hour gap between trains which, while acknowledging the rural point above, is terrible for a London suburban service.

I suspect most people south of Hadley Wood just end up using the Northern or Piccadilly lines because they run every couple of minutes even if its more inconvenient or increases the journey time. Even pre-covid, I rarely used the weekend service. 2 tph requires you to actively plan your journey because you don't want to be left with a 29 (or 59 regularly!) minute wait.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not familar with how busy that line is as to whether 7 tph is appropriate but atleast with that if there is one cancellation there is only 18 minutes between trains and then the next one follows 8-9 mins later.

Whilst it’s 7tph, it’s actually 3 different services.

4 tph ‘Fast’, calling St Albans then all stations to Bedford

2tph ‘Slow’ all stations to Luton

1tph ‘Semi Fast’ W Hampstead, Mill Hill then all stations to St Albans.

The slow and semi fast services are overtaken by the fasts, and are timed close to some of the fasts as a result. For stations south of St Albans, a cancellation in the half hour opposite the semi will lead to a gap of an hour (or nearly so).

 

[Class15]

Whilst it’s 7tph, it’s actually 3 different services.

4 tph ‘Fast’, calling St Albans then all stations to Bedford

2tph ‘Slow’ all stations to Luton

1tph ‘Semi Fast’ W Hampstead, Mill Hill then all stations to St Albans.

The slow and semi fast services are overtaken by the fasts, and are timed close to some of the fasts as a result. For stations south of St Albans, a cancellation in the half hour opposite the semi will lead to a gap of an hour (or nearly so).

That's interesting, and I assume only the 'slow' services stop at Kentish Town?

 

[Bald Rick]

That's interesting, and I assume only the 'slow' services stop at Kentish Town?

Correct, they are also the only services that call at Hendon and Cricklewood.

 

[Class15]

Correct, they are also the only services that call at Hendon and Cricklewood.

Thanks!

 

[172101]

4 tph ‘Fast’, calling St Albans then all stations to Bedford - 2 of these also call at West Hampstead and on Sundays all trains call at West Hampstead

 

[jon0844]

I have noticed a lot more people are changing at Finsbury Park onto the Thamelink service from both the Hertford lines and the WGC Branch.

There are pretty good connection times, as long as the 9xxx trains are running. Far easier than walking at King's Cross over to St Pancras.

Likewise, going home, I will usually go to Finsbury Park (despite it not being the nicest station to wait at) than go to King's Cross and discover my half hourly service is delayed or cancelled. If I go to FPK, I can opt for the stopper - and the 717s are a pretty okay environment. At least I'm moving.

I am not surprised Finsbury Park is more popular now and likely more so as time goes on. When the lifts are done for all platforms and the new gateline makes the station more secure, it may also become more pleasant too.

 

[SE%Traveller]

4 tph ‘Fast’, calling St Albans then all stations to Bedford

2tph ‘Slow’ all stations to Luton

1tph ‘Semi Fast’ W Hampstead, Mill Hill then all stations to St Albans.

One of the strange things i learned through all this emergency timetable business was that in 'normal' times the St Albans Sutton Services was the stopping service weekdays off peak and weekend and the Luton's the Semi Fast but that at peak times it reversed and the Luton's were the Slows and the St Albans the Semi Fasts. There was no impact on frequency because of the extra Luton's from Orpington but with their withdrawal there was an impact North of the river i hadn't appreciated. I think it was related to East Midland Trains rather than Thameslink

 

[cle]

One of the strange things i learned through all this emergency timetable business was that in 'normal' times the St Albans Sutton Services was the stopping service weekdays off peak and weekend and the Luton's the Semi Fast but that at peak times it reversed and the Luton's were the Slows and the St Albans the Semi Fasts. There was no impact on frequency because of the extra Luton's from Orpington but with their withdrawal there was an impact North of the river i hadn't appreciated. I think it was related to East Midland Trains rather than Thameslink

Yep I was quite surprised to see the semi run to St Albans, usually a stopper.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep I was quite surprised to see the semi run to St Albans, usually a stopper.

In the peak, semis have been St Albans terminators since May 2018.

 

[andystock22]

The inners are currently struggling in the peaks, with people from Hadley Wood to London finding themselves on crush loaded trains. Four trains per hour to Moorgate from WGC would help, but I think more people would prefer the return of the semi-fast trains that will serve the stations really struggling right now - with the added benefit of serving stations in the core (at least until something goes wrong in the core or south of the river).

I am not sure if even with many people returning to work that there's demand for 8tph (2tph King's Cross, 2tph Sevenoaks and 4tph to Moorgate) quite yet, or for some time.

Clearly more trains need to be running ASAP, not waiting until the summer timetable.

Pre March 2020, stations like New Batnet would have 40 carriages per hour at rush hour into London.

Four 6 car trains (class 717s)
Two 8 car trains (class 700s)

The capacity at the moment is 12 carriages per hour.

Less than 30% of the original capacity.

 

[bramling]

Pre March 2020, stations like New Batnet would have 40 carriages per hour at rush hour into London.

Four 6 car trains (class 717s)
Two 8 car trains (class 700s)

The capacity at the moment is 12 carriages per hour.

Less than 30% of the original capacity.

That’s pretty stark. It’s also worth adding that I’d imagine we’re likely to be at the point where the domino effect is happening.

What I mean by this is there are fewer services from further out, for example the peak Baldocks fasts aren’t running, so you’ll have people from places like Letchworth and Hitchin opting for slower services in order to get pick of the seats. So in turn there will be people from Welwyn getting on the 717 services who wouldn’t otherwise be doing so. One positive aspect of May 18 was this effect largely disappeared thanks to sufficient capacity generally being provided across the board.

From what I’m hearing locally, overcrowding is fast becoming an issue. As a matter of urgency, GTR need to be getting 12-car trains out where they can.

Shame about those scrapped 365s, if GTR need stock then they are now lumbered with the expensive 379s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Shame about those scrapped 365s, if GTR need stock then they are now lumbered with the expensive 379s.

stock isn’t the issue. It’s drivers.

 

[philjo]

The peak Kings Lynn/Ely fast services are not calling at Royston and Letchworth at the moment. So Royston and Letchworth passengers have to use the Brighton or stopping services. There are a lot of complaints on the local Rail Users Group, especially from Royston passengers. Many are questioning why they still have to pay peak fares for a much slower service. Though as the Kings Lynn services are currently only running as 8 coaches I doubt there will be much room for Letchworth passengers when the stops are reinstated later this month.