Will the Thameslink Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross Peak-time only service ever return

[bramling]

stock isn’t the issue. It’s drivers.

Would there be enough stock to return to December 19? I’m thinking if peak numbers do return, could modest off-peak cuts be made in order to release drivers for the peaks?

 

[Bald Rick]

Would there be enough stock to return to December 19?

not quite.

I’m thinking if peak numbers do return

they’re not going to, at least not for 5 years.

 

[wipeout]

stock isn’t the issue. It’s drivers.

Where have the drivers gone? The current timetable is give or take a third of what it should be (atleast on the Welwyn peak service). Ok, some might be self-isolating but case numbers are now much lower and self isolation time is shorter so it can't be anywhere near two-thirds of drivers?

 

[bramling]

not quite.




they’re not going to, at least not for 5 years.

5 years isn’t that long. It feels like only yesterday that First Capital Connect were scraping the rolling stock barrel to get the 321s and introduce their “seats for you” capacity increase timetable, yet this is well over a decade ago now.

It’s rather frustrating that in May 18 we finally got a timetable which provided copious amounts of capacity. Quality was sacrificed in order to be able to deliver that extra capacity.

We now seem to have the worst of both worlds, reduced timetables, but 2018 comfort levels, and now some of the components needed to provide that capacity - driver numbers and fleet size - are no longer there, and it seems may well prove hard to get back, which will be a problem even in the case of your 5 years prediction.

The outlook is pretty depressing to be honest.

Where have the drivers gone? The current timetable is give or take a third of what it should be (atleast on the Welwyn peak service). Ok, some might be self-isolating but case numbers are now much lower and self isolation time is shorter so it can't be anywhere near two-thirds of drivers?

In the case of the inners, there have been issues with driver availability for some time. The way GTR have divided the GN crewing into silos seems not to have helped. Why would anyone want to spend their time doing intensive inner-suburban work up and down the Hertford line?

 

[jon0844]

Pre March 2020, stations like New Batnet would have 40 carriages per hour at rush hour into London.

Four 6 car trains (class 717s)
Two 8 car trains (class 700s)

The capacity at the moment is 12 carriages per hour.

Less than 30% of the original capacity.

This is why I think the semi-fast services would be preferred by many over more 717s at first (at least until they all come back). That won't happen, but doubling the capacity even if just 6 car trains is going to make a significant difference.

It also matters where people at New Barnet and New Southgate etc want to go. If they want to go to King's Cross, they currently have to change at Finsbury Park (or Highbury & Islington) because the only services they have are to Moorgate.

 

[OFFDN]

In answer to the thread title….. yes

 

[jon0844]

From February 28th, new timings are in for a return of 4tph to Moorgate and some of the 2Yxx semi-fast services from WGC to KGX. (You can see this on realtimetrains)

Many are Q trains, set to run as required (i.e. only run if they have staff available) so not all may actually be running. There are also lots of duplicates with different timings, and obviously only one of the services will run.

 

[bramling]

From February 28th, new timings are in for a return of 4tph to Moorgate and some of the 2Yxx semi-fast services from WGC to KGX. (You can see this on realtimetrains)

Many are Q trains, set to run as required (i.e. only run if they have staff available) so not all may actually be running. There are also lots of duplicates with different timings, and obviously only one of the services will run.

I see GTR has duplicates for the 28th Feb week. They seem to be continuing elements of the current service through to May, in particular one of the Cambridge stopping services reversing at Royston (which to be fair isn’t a massive problem - 6tph between Royston and Cambridge I always thought was fairly generous).

What would be really nice would be to get the Baldocks back, especially the evening ones, but that seems as far away as ever. Not sure where the stock to run them would come from either.

 

[Downthelane]

So the long awaited WGC through the core started today, not sure how many traveled to Sevenoaks but a welcome return of the semi-fasts to/from London nonetheless!

 

[jon0844]

So the long awaited WGC through the core started today, not sure how many traveled to Sevenoaks but a welcome return of the semi-fasts to/from London nonetheless!

Six in the morning and four in the afternoon.

Besides the services through the core, I think the real benefits of those trains come to those at stations like New Barnet that have had to rely solely on Moorgate trains through much/most of the pandemic.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is difficult to do a real passenger count of who got off and left where, but from WGC this morning it was reasonably loaded. I wasn't the only one staying on into the core. I recognized a few faces of people that I have seen on the 0822 WGC - Kings Cross that were on the 0832 instead. However lots of people got on / off at Finsbury Park (as normal) and lots of people using Farringdon, City and Blackfrairs (clearly more leaving then joining.)

I am going to try it next week to Moorgate (changing at Farringdon) - I don't expect that to beat the direct route to be honest.

Very welcome addition, problems north bound this morning meant some non-stop runs from Finsbury Park - WGC (which was the case of the inbound service)

Wasn't there early enough to see if the 0822 was quieter as a result. Shame that Cambridge route will never go through the core, hopefully they can find an alternative destination rather than Ashford. I know Kings Cross does have it benefits, but for me personally the number of better options with Cross-Rail running through the core creates it is a real shame that route is still going to KX.

 

[Mzzzs]

It is difficult to do a real passenger count of who got off and left where, but from WGC this morning it was reasonably loaded. I wasn't the only one staying on into the core. I recognized a few faces of people that I have seen on the 0822 WGC - Kings Cross that were on the 0832 instead. However lots of people got on / off at Finsbury Park (as normal) and lots of people using Farringdon, City and Blackfrairs (clearly more leaving then joining.)

I am going to try it next week to Moorgate (changing at Farringdon) - I don't expect that to beat the direct route to be honest.

Very welcome addition, problems north bound this morning meant some non-stop runs from Finsbury Park - WGC (which was the case of the inbound service)

Wasn't there early enough to see if the 0822 was quieter as a result. Shame that Cambridge route will never go through the core, hopefully they can find an alternative destination rather than Ashford. I know Kings Cross does have it benefits, but for me personally the number of better options with Cross-Rail running through the core creates it is a real shame that route is still going to KX.

I travelled on the morning one at around 8:20 and then returned back to my local station at New Southgate at around 4:50. Walked through the train in the morning and would say that the number of people on the train could fill a class 387 all seated so not very full but definitely get more full over time.
The problem is that it has not been advertised to people at the stations it stops at, I did not know the service was starting until last week when I checked the on real time trains I think they need to advertise it more so people actually know about the service.

 

[Downthelane]

Well the evening WGC semi-fast 17.16 from Finsbury Park is interesting. Routed onto the slows through Ferme Park and now running 7 late into Oakleigh Park. This train was supposed to pass the stopper before Ally Pally. Let’s see what happens tomorrow!

 

[GTR fail]

The morning timetabling is also weird. They are meant to go on to platform 1 at Alexandra Palace whilst the Moorgate stopper goes on Platform 2.
They then switch over between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park, with the Sevenoaks on 2 at Finsbury Park and the Moorgate on 1 - why is this? Why not keep the Sevenoaks on platform 1 at Finsbury Park and the Moorgate on 2?!

 

[bramling]

It is difficult to do a real passenger count of who got off and left where, but from WGC this morning it was reasonably loaded. I wasn't the only one staying on into the core. I recognized a few faces of people that I have seen on the 0822 WGC - Kings Cross that were on the 0832 instead. However lots of people got on / off at Finsbury Park (as normal) and lots of people using Farringdon, City and Blackfrairs (clearly more leaving then joining.)

I am going to try it next week to Moorgate (changing at Farringdon) - I don't expect that to beat the direct route to be honest.

Very welcome addition, problems north bound this morning meant some non-stop runs from Finsbury Park - WGC (which was the case of the inbound service)

Wasn't there early enough to see if the 0822 was quieter as a result. Shame that Cambridge route will never go through the core, hopefully they can find an alternative destination rather than Ashford. I know Kings Cross does have it benefits, but for me personally the number of better options with Cross-Rail running through the core creates it is a real shame that route is still going to KX.

Short of 6-tracking Welwyn to Alexandra Palace, and 4-tracking Hitchin to Cambridge, I just can’t see how the Cambridge stopping service could ever run reliably through the core. It’s already the fall-back for the frequent occasions when the 9J and 9S services fall apart!

 

[Robski_]

The morning timetabling is also weird. They are meant to go on to platform 1 at Alexandra Palace whilst the Moorgate stopper goes on Platform 2.
They then switch over between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park, with the Sevenoaks on 2 at Finsbury Park and the Moorgate on 1 - why is this? Why not keep the Sevenoaks on platform 1 at Finsbury Park and the Moorgate on 2?!

For some reason RLU class 700 trains aren't allowed into platform 1 at Finsbury Park when in service. I'm not sure if they are formally not allowed, but I have never seen an in service class 700 go through platform 1 and signallers are willing to block the up fast to make sure all Thameslink trains do not use platform 1.

 

[GTR fail]

Realtime Trains | 9Y15 0802 Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 9Y15 0802 departure from Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It happened today

 

[bramling]

For some reason RLU class 700 trains aren't allowed into platform 1 at Finsbury Park when in service. I'm not sure if they are formally not allowed, but I have never seen an in service class 700 go through platform 1 and signallers are willing to block the up fast to make sure all Thameslink trains do not use platform 1.

I suspect this may be more to do with the current “temporary” timetable applying to the Moorgate services. In the “proper” timetable, the Welwyn to Sevenoaks services were always intended to stay on the up slow no.1, but in this timetable many of the Moorgates have additional calls inserted at Harringay and Hornsey. Adjusting the Thameslink timings is not an option, as they have to hit the core in the right timings.

Incidentally I don’t believe that’s true about Finsbury Park platform 1, the 2Cxx services do occasionally run through there. The signallers really don’t seem to like running stuff on the down slow no.2 when not booked to do so though, this has been the case right back to when it was first made available for passenger use.

I’ve run this timetable on SimSig, and what is in the timetable for the Welwyn to Sevenoaks services around Alexandra Palace simply doesn’t quite work. Whatever one does it puts a slight delay on something. And a look at RTTT for today seems to bear this out - most of the Welwyn to Sevenoaks services today seem to have lost a bit of time in this section.

 

[Robski_]

Realtime Trains | 9Y15 0802 Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 9Y15 0802 departure from Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It happened today

I suspect this may be more to do with the current “temporary” timetable applying to the Moorgate services. In the “proper” timetable, the Welwyn to Sevenoaks services were always intended to stay on the up slow no.1, but in this timetable many of the Moorgates have additional calls inserted at Harringay and Hornsey. Adjusting the Thameslink timings is not an option, as they have to hit the core in the right timings.

Incidentally I don’t believe that’s true about Finsbury Park platform 1, the 2Cxx services do occasionally run through there. The signallers really don’t seem to like running stuff on the down slow no.2 when not booked to do so though, this has been the case right back to when it was first made available for passenger use.

I’ve run this timetable on SimSig, and what is in the timetable for the Welwyn to Sevenoaks services around Alexandra Palace simply doesn’t quite work. Whatever one does it puts a slight delay on something. And a look at RTTT for today seems to bear this out - most of the Welwyn to Sevenoaks services today seem to have lost a bit of time in this section.

Interesting, in the past there have been numerous occasions where I have been on a St Pancras bound train sitting outside Finsbury Park on the up fast to allow for a late running Cambridge-Kings Cross TL train to go into platform 2 (holding my train up in the process) instead of routing it into platform 1 and letting my train into platform 2.

Between 0730 and 0830, Sevenoaks trains are booked through platform 2 at Alexandria Palace, and looking at the timetable I can't see why outside of those times GTR have not put the Moorgate train that is in front of the Sevenoaks train on platform 1 instead of 2 at Alexandria Palace.

 

[Downthelane]

It is difficult to do a real passenger count of who got off and left where, but from WGC this morning it was reasonably loaded. I wasn't the only one staying on into the core. I recognized a few faces of people that I have seen on the 0822 WGC - Kings Cross that were on the 0832 instead. However lots of people got on / off at Finsbury Park (as normal) and lots of people using Farringdon, City and Blackfrairs (clearly more leaving then joining.)

I am going to try it next week to Moorgate (changing at Farringdon) - I don't expect that to beat the direct route to be honest.

Very welcome addition, problems north bound this morning meant some non-stop runs from Finsbury Park - WGC (which was the case of the inbound service)

Wasn't there early enough to see if the 0822 was quieter as a result. Shame that Cambridge route will never go through the core, hopefully they can find an alternative destination rather than Ashford. I know Kings Cross does have it benefits, but for me personally the number of better options with Cross-Rail running through the core creates it is a real shame that route is still going to KX.

When you say Farringdon to Moorgate you will mean Tube?? However it got me thinking about Farringdon to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth Line. Will that route be covered at the same cost as train+tube or is the new line subject to any extra fare cost?
For someone who works around Liverpool Street taking the Sevenoaks train to Farringdon and changing to go east is a nice option but I guess depends on how far the walk is (at Farringdon). That lost time at Finsbury Park and the pedestrian line speeds on the NCL + the time to exit Moorgate, could that be beaten by the new routes options I wonder?

 

[Failed Unit]

I was meaning via Elizabeth line. However I will be honest I haven’t checked validity. Clearly the barriers won’t care but an RPI might