Will we ever get a nationwide Oyster Card scheme

[Comstock]

2010 the Condem government promised a national Oyster Card scheme, a couple of years later its introduction was announced in the Daily Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...e-rail-and-bus-tickets-to-go-nation-wide.html

The Government will also unveil plans to make season tickets more flexible, to take into account the fact that more women are working part-time.

A new rail policy paper will propose updating ticketing to reflect advances in technology and modern working patterns.

People will be able to touch in and touch out on ticket readers on buses and trains across the UK, similar to the Oyster card system which is used in the the south-east of England....

...then?....nothing, as far as I can Google?

Has anything at all been achieved in the intervening six years?

 

[Mal]

I can't see it ever happening,simply because the whole bus industry is so fragmented. If (and it's a gigantic IF) we still had the NBC and SBG group companies, as well as Municipals and the then independents, then it could work. As it is, most operators are trying as hard as they can to keep their heads above water without having extra expense forced onto them. Far from saving money, it could be the final straw for operators who provide vital rural services. Add this to the fact that councils are freezing, reducing or just refusing to subsidise socially necessary services and you have the recipe for disaster.

 

[causton]

The world has moved on. I think Contactless card acceptance on buses even if just to replace cash (which is being rolled out in a wide number of places!), is a much better prospect than trying to introduce a national Oyster-style card.

 

[radamfi]

even if just to replace cash

That is unacceptable as you still have the time consuming discussion with the driver.

 

[causton]

That is unacceptable as you still have the time consuming discussion with the driver.

Not if you know what ticket you want. Which bus operators could help by having more detailed fares information available to people online etc!
In my experience (both as a bus passenger, and someone who sells tickets for buses and not trains - when people want a simple single or return ticket etc) it takes more time for people to fiddle about getting all the silver coins out of their bag than it does for me to actually work out what ticket than they want and issue it!

Just "Single to the High Street, please".

The issue is when people have a big conversation about what ticket they might need, going "Yes, I am going one way on this bus to the High Street, but at about 10pm tonight I will be taking the route 837 from the High Street back home, but that bus is operated by another operator, so I was wondering if it would be ch..."

And so on and so forth...

This is my experience in Herts, Beds and Bucks though, in a big city perhaps another solution would be better - but more use of mobile apps could help with that as you can research the tickets available before you board.

 

[radamfi]

Not if you know what ticket you want.

Even if the passenger knows exactly what is required, the driver still has to wait for the instruction and then needs to operate the ticket machine. The passenger then has to wait for the paper ticket to be produced and then take the ticket.

 

[Mwanesh]

For me nothing beats local knowledge.You can have as many apps as you like i find asking a driver easier than looking at my phone.Even for the best ticket

 

[Mal]

You are right that local knowledge is fine, but where-ever you have tourists, there will always be the case of "Does this bus go to ..." or "How much is the fare to ......" so it might be an insurmountable problem. I suppose that the bus company could have staff at strategic points to answer tourist's queries, but would they be cost effective?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

For me nothing beats local knowledge.You can have as many apps as you like i find asking a driver easier than looking at my phone.Even for the best ticket

That would have been the case as per someone's comment on the old days of NBC, PTE's, Municipals etc but in these days of getting the cheapest person to do the job there have been instances of passengers telling the drivers what the route and fares are (saw this on the Kington-Hereford bus a little while back - regular passenger telling the driver what they should charge someone). You'd think the technology should be there (a la supermarket till) to inform and guide drivers as to best tickets, journeys etc etc.

 

[Bookd]

That is unacceptable as you still have the time consuming discussion with the driver.

This will always be the problem with variable fares, which maybe cannot be avoided on longer routes. As a Londoner used to fixed fares, no cash, I am used to people just touching in and the bus goes.
On a recent visit to York I took a couple of longer journeys but even within the city, where First have options to pay cash card or phone buses were delayed at most stops for debates as to what should be paid and how.
On a longer journey to Pickering departure from York was about 10 minutes late due entirely to debates about who should pay what and to where.

 

[radamfi]

This will always be the problem with variable fares, which maybe cannot be avoided on longer routes. As a Londoner used to fixed fares, no cash, I am used to people just touching in and the bus goes.
On a recent visit to York I took a couple of longer journeys but even within the city, where First have options to pay cash card or phone buses were delayed at most stops for debates as to what should be paid and how.
On a longer journey to Pickering departure from York was about 10 minutes late due entirely to debates about who should pay what and to where.

Long routes are no excuse. You also don't need modern technology. Other countries use zonal fares meaning that driver intervention isn't required and people have been using paper strip tickets for decades. You just validate the ticket for the required number of zones. With a touch in touch out system you can even have a different fare for every pair of bus stops.

 

[jon0844]

Unless you switch to a touch in, touch out system then buses with variable fares/zones are always going to involve communication with the driver. Uno bus with me has now adopted contactless (actually they did in July) and they're actively promoting their mobile app (which, sadly, is still terrible) but not having to worry about cash does make a difference.

Most passengers when I travel are still using passes though, so relatively few people are actually paying anyway!

 

[RT4038]

Long routes are no excuse. You also don't need modern technology. Other countries use zonal fares meaning that driver intervention isn't required and people have been using paper strip tickets for decades. You just validate the ticket for the required number of zones. With a touch in touch out system you can even have a different fare for every pair of bus stops.

Long routes are an issue with touch i / touch out - the higher the maximum fare available, the greater the amount of minimum 'credit' required on the touch in , in case the passenger wished to travel to the furthest extremity (possibly 10 quid away)
I do not understand how 'zonal' fares make any difference - you are giving an example of drivers not checking tickets, not seen as acceptable by UK operators -in a UK iteration the driver would validate the paper strip ticket and this would be a driver intervention.

 

[deltic]

2010 the Condem government promised a national Oyster Card scheme, a couple of years later its introduction was announced in the Daily Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...e-rail-and-bus-tickets-to-go-nation-wide.html

...then?....nothing, as far as I can Google?

Has anything at all been achieved in the intervening six years?

This is a classic case of London based think tanks and politicians not understanding the transport market outside London.
The Oyster product has been developed over a number of years in a way that operators outside of London can only partially follow due to the deregulated nature of the bus market. The first step which has also been adopted outside London was for concessionary passes and season tickets to move from paper to smart. The next steps are more difficult to replicate. These included the introduction of flat fares on buses so passengers only have to touch in with a smart card (no need to touch out or tell the driver where you are going) and a change in fare structure so cash fares were raised significantly and smart fares were cut. These led to a massive switch from cash to smart payment for single bus fares. In a competitive environment outside London these moves are difficult to replicate.

The other major difference between London and the rest of the country is the way transport is delivered. So Oyster was not launched as a multi-operator ticket but was rather a multi-modal single operator ticket although it has now been extended (at great pain to rail operators). A situation that is not readily replicable in other locations without a change in the regulatory environment.

So in London, Oyster is seen as a discount product that is available on all forms of public transport, all buses, is easy to use, there is a limit to how much you will be charged on any one day and it is possible to top-up cards either on-line, automatically or through a large network of retail outlets. Outside London, multi-operator smartcards are generally priced as a premium product (while single operator only season ticket smartcards often offer significant discounts), may not be valid on all operators’ buses, may not be valid on other forms of public transport, presently offer fewer products, there is often a need to tell the driver where you are travelling to and there are often limited locations to top-up/renew cards offline. These differences have a major impact on how smart cards can be developed and marketed outside London.

 

[radamfi]

Long routes are an issue with touch i / touch out - the higher the maximum fare available, the greater the amount of minimum 'credit' required on the touch in , in case the passenger wished to travel to the furthest extremity (possibly 10 quid away)
I do not understand how 'zonal' fares make any difference - you are giving an example of drivers not checking tickets, not seen as acceptable by UK operators -in a UK iteration the driver would validate the paper strip ticket and this would be a driver intervention.

If you use touch in touch out with contactless in London on trains/tubes you don't need to have a minimum balance. Even the ageing Oyster card can cope with single fares well in excess of £10.

Even if you insist on driver validation, that can be done quickly with zonal fares. The former Dutch Strippenkaart system worked by presenting the driver with the ticket folded at the right strip, meaning each transaction was very quick. Nowadays you could show the driver a mobile ticket for the right number of zones.

 

[RT4038]

This is a classic case of London based think tanks and politicians not understanding the transport market outside London.
The Oyster product has been developed over a number of years in a way that operators outside of London can only partially follow due to the deregulated nature of the bus market. The first step which has also been adopted outside London was for concessionary passes and season tickets to move from paper to smart. The next steps are more difficult to replicate. These included the introduction of flat fares on buses so passengers only have to touch in with a smart card (no need to touch out or tell the driver where you are going) and a change in fare structure so cash fares were raised significantly and smart fares were cut. These led to a massive switch from cash to smart payment for single bus fares. In a competitive environment outside London these moves are difficult to replicate.

The other major difference between London and the rest of the country is the way transport is delivered. So Oyster was not launched as a multi-operator ticket but was rather a multi-modal single operator ticket although it has now been extended (at great pain to rail operators). A situation that is not readily replicable in other locations without a change in the regulatory environment.

So in London, Oyster is seen as a discount product that is available on all forms of public transport, all buses, is easy to use, there is a limit to how much you will be charged on any one day and it is possible to top-up cards either on-line, automatically or through a large network of retail outlets. Outside London, multi-operator smartcards are generally priced as a premium product (while single operator only season ticket smartcards often offer significant discounts), may not be valid on all operators’ buses, may not be valid on other forms of public transport, presently offer fewer products, there is often a need to tell the driver where you are travelling to and there are often limited locations to top-up/renew cards offline. These differences have a major impact on how smart cards can be developed and marketed outside London.

I can just imagine the look of horror on Sir Humphrey's face when that got announced...... At no time was it said that the fare would be flat, or the same on every operator. The algorithim would be more complicated to cope with a different 'capping' on a single vs. multi operator ticket. It would require touch in / touch out, and there would be a serious problem with minimum balance required on the card when touching in.

More to the point would be the funding of the software development, the 'touching' hardware and the continuous cost of the call centre required to deal with all the queries

 

[RT4038]

If you use touch in touch out with contactless in London on trains/tubes you don't need to have a minimum balance. Even the ageing Oyster card can cope with single fares well in excess of £10.

Even if you insist on driver validation, that can be done quickly with zonal fares. The former Dutch Strippenkaart system worked by presenting the driver with the ticket folded at the right strip, meaning each transaction was very quick. Nowadays you could show the driver a mobile ticket for the right number of zones.

Well yes, if you use contactless cards (rather than an 'Oyster' style card), but these only are good for 30 quid, and the 2010 statement was for bus and rail, a single journey on rail could conceivably cost 500. An Oyster Pay-as-you-go (without auto top up) could not be used without significant minimum balance.

As for driver intervention, in the UK drivers would be expected to check that the passenger was indeed presenting the correct number of zones to be validated by asking 'Where are you going'?, if this informaton was not proffered by the passenger automatically.

 

[radamfi]

Well yes, if you use contactless cards (rather than an 'Oyster' style card), but these only are good for 30 quid, and the 2010 statement was for bus and rail, a single journey on rail could conceivably cost 500. An Oyster Pay-as-you-go (without auto top up) could not be used without significant minimum balance.

As for driver intervention, in the UK drivers would be expected to check that the passenger was indeed presenting the correct number of zones to be validated by asking 'Where are you going'?, if this informaton was not proffered by the passenger automatically.

The GTR Key smartcard doesn't use a minimum balance but instead works out the cost of the equivalent paper tickets that you could have bought for the journeys you made the previous day and deducts your credit card accordingly. The validity already covers a large region of the south east and could technically be extended further. Most other countries have opted for mobile tickets rather than smartcards for long distance trips.

Bus drivers already accept zonal day or weekly tickets on the basis that you don't travel beyond the validity of the ticket, so I don't see any difference for single tickets.

 

[Surreyman]

I visit the Nederlands 2/3 times a year and have had an ov-chipkaart for a few years, it's basically valid on all trains, trams & buses across the whole of the country, swipe in, swipe out.
Obviously you have to charge it up with more money but this can be done at a machine in a couple of minutes with a credit/debit card.
I can't be 100% certain that every last transport operator accepts it but I have yet to find one that doesn't.
The Nederlands has a number of franchised rail operators as well as NS and quite a few bus companies as well.
I assume that payment goes straight to the relevant transport operating company (There may be some sort of 'clearing house system' as well, not sure).
It's wonderful for the passenger, no need to buy tickets for every journey and wonderful for the operators, no cash, minimum number of ticket office staff required.
Just requires political will and a one off investment in the technology.

 

[radamfi]

I assume that payment goes straight to the relevant transport operating company (There may be some sort of 'clearing house system' as well, not sure).

There is no clearing house and each company keeps the money. That's why you have to touch in and out when you change company.

 

[RT4038]

The GTR Key smartcard doesn't use a minimum balance but instead works out the cost of the equivalent paper tickets that you could have bought for the journeys you made the previous day and deducts your credit card accordingly. The validity already covers a large region of the south east and could technically be extended further. Most other countries have opted for mobile tickets rather than smartcards for long distance trips.

Bus drivers already accept zonal day or weekly tickets on the basis that you don't travel beyond the validity of the ticket, so I don't see any difference for single tickets.

Deducting credit cards rather reduces the number of passengers that could use it (instead of universal availability of PAYG Oyster cards). The original statement was for a national Oyster Card scheme. Do the mobile tickets do anything more than an equivalent paper ticket does?

 

[radamfi]

Deducting credit cards rather reduces the number of passengers that could use it (instead of universal availability of PAYG Oyster cards). The original statement was for a national Oyster Card scheme. Do the mobile tickets do anything more than an equivalent paper ticket does?

The main advantage of mobile tickets for trains is not needing to waste time queuing at machines for tickets.

 

[AndrewE]

I trust the Oyster card administrators to charge my card correctly at the end of a day's travelling, and I have found that any problems I cause during my infrequent use get ironed out with no problem at all during after a single phone call. Top marks for their call centre staff.
However I cannot imagine a UK-wide card administrator ever being able to charge it correctly after a day's travelling given the range of tickets available - even if it was valid for rail alone.
Also I don't mind charging my Oyster up for a few days' useage, but for National Rail that would be making them an interest-free loan of several hundred pounds - or possibly very much more! I discovered the hard way that if you haven't got sufficient balance on your Oyster for the maximum possible fare when you touch in it locks up and defaults to "computer says no," even if touching out would complete a journey well within the credit balance on the card.
No way would I trust what pretends to be our current "National" rail network with the amount of money it would want, or that they would understand a particular issue and correct it fairly.