Will we see motorail return?

[mike57]

That wouldn't work either. The cars at the front of the train would suffer battery damage from being overcharged, and the ones at the rear would only be trickle-charging the whole time. The ETS requirements for 30 cars on charge would be immense, far greater than heating or cooling 8-10 passenger saloons.

The battery charge controller that sits between train supply and the car battery will stop overcharging. The power drawn from the train supply is a function of the maximum charge rate that you allow for each car. To be useful I would suggest you would aim for a 20kW charge rate per vehicle, so if there were 50 cars on the train you would need 1MW. Taking a class 88 that locomotive has a power output of 4MW and can supply 500kW in ETS supply as running now, so supplying 1MW shouldn't be technically impossible if it was designed in from the start. Alternatively you could have a second pantograph and transformer on one of the car carriers. Assuming a 3+ hour journey 20kW charging would be reasonable, I dont see the need for 100kW + charging rates in this case

None of this rules out charge and travel motorail, what does rule it out in my mind are cost and network capacity. Both those barriers could change with time, I dont think they will, but they could. If they did then technically I see it as fairly straight forwards.

 

[Meerkat]

with the increase in long-distance electrification and increasing sales of electric cars

Old electric cars on trains sounds too risky after reading about what happens when they catch fire. Its unlikely (though charging en route would increase the risk) but the chaos when it happened compared to ICE would be expensive.

But if people were sat in their own cars, not a coach,

When I have done Euroshuttle I had to get out of my car - the car rocking on the suspension made me sea sick!

Agree. Associating car-club-style car hire with a rail journey is a much more likely solution to the problem of wanting to go somewhere by rail but needing a car once there

I think luggage is the problem, particularly for families - just look at all the junk they ram in for a holiday in Cornwall! Probably uneconomic, but still less uneconomic than Motorail, would be a luggage service where they delivered boxes, you loaded them up, then they deliver them to your accommodation. But making sure someone was in at the far end might be unreliable.

The reason to care about big cars gets less and less as cars get more electric

Apart from parking space, roadspace, and them being more unsafe and doing more damage when they crash!

 

[The Planner]

Genuinely amazed the premise is for people to sit in their cars for the duration of a journey. Unless its like the Channel Tunnel, with limited facilities on board, no one is going to do that for longer than an hour.

 

[renegademaster]

Apart from parking space, roadspace

Valid but valid now but nobody cares apart from fringe activists and even then the answer from them tends to be bikes not microcars.

them being more unsafe and doing more damage when they crash!

With the important bits being automated away these won't be as much a problem in the future

 

[Meerkat]

Valid but valid now but nobody cares apart from fringe activists and even then the answer from them tends to be bikes not microcars.

People care about finding a parking space and congestion

With the important bits being automated away these won't be as much a problem in the future

Unconvinced how good automation in UK urban areas will be unless an incredibly unlikely networked system is developed, and can't break the laws of physics if someone steps out in front or swerves.

 

[renegademaster]

People care about finding a parking space and congestion

yet all the 23 plates in London are big SUVs , I'm not convinced

 

[Bald Rick]

I did wonder when this would come up again.

The answer is - no chance.

I briefly worked in the back office for motorail when I were a lad, it lost a ton of money then, and that was when most of the costs of it were, frankly, hidden elsewhere.

To put it in context, for a 300-400 mile service (which was the bare minimum for a motorail service back then), an average well loaded intercity coach of passengers on a day train will make around £3-5k in revenue one way.

A similar motorail coach would get 4 cars in, and need special facilities to enable it. “Do the Math”

All those cars charging off the catenary at once, along with an electric loco... think of the current draw! Would each coach have its own pantograph to supply the chargers?

The ETS requirements for 30 cars on charge would be immense, far greater than heating or cooling 8-10 passenger saloons.

Not so. It‘s not going to happen… but if it were theres no reason to believe the chargers would be any more than 7kW. For a journey that is going to be a minimum of 5 hours, and much longer if overnight, that still provides a very decent boost. It is also very unlikley that every car on board would need to make use of the full charging rate, nor that every space on the train would be sold. Lets say 10 coaches, each with 4 car spaces, 75% of them in use at the full 7kw - thats 210kw. A 92 can provide 900kW.

 

[6Gman]

But if people were sat in their own cars, not a coach, then the ETH overhead for the coaches disappears. If you don't fancy the idea of each car carrier having its own pantograph, then current could be drawn from the loco via a powerbus of some kind.

Can't see that passing any risk assessment. And since these would presumably be long distance services what about toilet access?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think luggage is the problem, particularly for families - just look at all the junk they ram in for a holiday in Cornwall!

To a fair extent that's just because you can. The same families do a week away on Ryanair with just hand luggage each. A hold luggage sized case per person is about the same as the size of the boot of an average family hatch.

 

[class ep-09]

Would extending Channels Tunnel shuttles to somewhere like South of France be worth while ( like one train per day )?

It would have to have some passenger coaches ( or completely different coaches altogether ) but such operation offering would give Channel crossing and hassle free travel to tourists going south of France , Italy or Spain even.

Facilities for loading / unloading are there on UK side .

Sorry if it was discussed already somewhere else .

I personally would use such journey option .

 

[HSTEd]

Would extending Channels Tunnel shuttles to somewhere like South of France be worth while ( like one train per day )?

It would have to have some passenger coaches ( or completely different coaches altogether ) but such operation offering would give Channel crossing and hassle free travel to tourists going south of France , Italy or Spain even.

Facilities for loading / unloading are there on UK side .

Sorry if it was discussed already somewhere else .

I personally would use such journey option .

The Chunnel shuttles would be comically out of gauge. In essence they fit nowhere outside the loop they run between Calais and Folkestone, other than their depot facilities.
It would be necessary to construct an all new line to allow them to go anywhere else.

 

[ainsworth74]

I did wonder when this would come up again.

The answer is - no chance.

Spoil sport, you're no fun

 

[Bald Rick]

I personally would use such journey option .

Not at the price youd have to pay, you wouldn‘t.

 

[randyrippley]

................... And since these would presumably be long distance services what about toilet access?

Wide neck bottles, for sale at the terminals alongside disposal / recycling points

 

[6Gman]

Wide neck bottles, for sale at the terminals alongside disposal / recycling points

Going to be one hell of a journey London to Perth with mum, dad and two teenagers in a Nissan Micra.*



* Other cars are available.

 

[Class 317]

Why would you wait around for a time to be loaded onto a train and off a train when you can likely do the journey in your EV door to door with no more breaks than you'd normally take in your ice?

The idea of charging EV's on the move is bonkers as it would cost way more than driving and charging at a fast charge.

I know family journeys when I was a kid from the Herts to Cornwall involved at least 3 stops one of which would be long enough for us kids to let off steam!

 

[Meerkat]

Can't see that passing any risk assessment. And since these would presumably be long distance services what about toilet access?

It works on Euroshuttle, but that’s a teensy weensie bit bigger….
how far can you open the doors on a car inside a UK gauge van? As I remember it the staff drove the cars onto UK Motorail.

To a fair extent that's just because you can. The same families do a week away on Ryanair with just hand luggage each. A hold luggage sized case per person is about the same as the size of the boot of an average family hatch.

The same families? And you don’t need as much stuff to spend a week in a hotel in Spain as you do to go round Cornwall tourist attractions in the somewhat more changeable weather.
Arguably the ability to take loads of stuff is why they are driving on holiday rather than flying somewhere.

 

[class ep-09]

The Chunnel shuttles would be comically out of gauge. In essence they fit nowhere outside the loop they run between Calais and Folkestone, other than their depot facilities.
It would be necessary to construct an all new line to allow them to go anywhere else.

That’s why I mentioned different rolling stock as an option but still be operated by Channel Tunnel ( or Euro Tunnel , whichever company name is correct this days ).

Not at the price youd have to pay, you wouldn‘t.

If you add cost of Channel crossing ( whichever way ) , fuel and tolls - trip to south of France by car will be somewhere in the region of £300 as an absolute minimum ( roughly £100 for crossing , £100 tolls and £100 for fuel) .

That is if you do it non stop .

If you break the journey and stay overnight in a hotel , you’d need to add another £150-£200 for a couple .
So motor rail journey would have to cost in excess of £500 in one direction to make it less attractive cost wise than a “ normal” car journey .
I’d personally pay even more to avoid 12hrs plus journey in my car.

Also , you’d be surprised how many people make similar journeys on an average day , going to Spain alone .

That brings another question - what would it cost to run such a service in terms of operational costs ( presuming rolling stock is sorted ) ?

 

[Bald Rick]

If you add cost of Channel crossing ( whichever way ) , fuel and tolls - trip to south of France by car will be somewhere in the region of £300 as an absolute minimum ( roughly £100 for crossing , £100 tolls and £100 for fuel) .

That is if you do it non stop .

If you break the journey and stay overnight in a hotel , you’d need to add another £150-£200 for a couple .
So motor rail journey would have to cost in excess of £500 in one direction to make it less attractive cost wise than a “ normal” car journey .
I’d personally pay even more to avoid 12hrs plus journey in my car.

Also , you’d be surprised how many people make similar journeys on an average day , going to Spain alone .

That brings another question - what would it cost to run such a service in terms of operational costs ( presuming rolling stock is sorted ) ?

Many moons ago, on a different thread, I costed up a sleeper from London to Barcelona. I reckoned back then it would need to be £500 per person to break even.

I think a one way motorail trip with (say) two passengers would be well into 4 figures for a commercial service. It will also take longer than driving.


Minor point - I’m breaking a journey to the South of France later this year in a Travelodge style hotel halfway down. £60 for three. (Also no fuel costs, but that is a relatively unusual position).

 

[telstarbox]

The South of France is a wide area though - it doesn't have one station which would serve the whole market.

 

[zwk500]

It works on Euroshuttle, but that’s a teensy weensie bit bigger….

Euroshuttle is.also only 45 minutes, and has toilets at the terminal in addition to the toilets on the train.

how far can you open the doors on a car inside a UK gauge van? As I remember it the staff drove the cars onto UK Motorail.

Tbf most people seem to be able to get in and out of cars in car parks with fairly tight spaces. Although maneuvering kids into car seats or other such holiday related problems within such confines might be another issue altogether.

The South of France is a wide area though - it doesn't have one station which would serve the whole market.

The advantage of carrying a car is that it would have a much wider area a station can serve, especially if the terminal is fairly close to a motorway.

 

[Bald Rick]

The advantage of carrying a car is that it would have a much wider area a station can serve, especially if the terminal is fairly close to a motorway.

Avignon would be the place. 12 hours from London on a motorail service, minimum, plus check in, loading, unloading etc.

 

[class ep-09]

Wasn’t there a motorail train from Turkey to somewhere in Austria running summer only ?
Optima Express name rings the bell .

It was ( or is) private enterprise - have they made any money?

 

[6Gman]

It works on Euroshuttle, but that’s a teensy weensie bit bigger….
how far can you open the doors on a car inside a UK gauge van? As I remember it the staff drove the cars onto UK Motorail.

My recollection is that for the enclosed vans they also tended to be thinner members of staff ...

A fair proportion of Motorails used flat wagons and that would be a total no-no to have passengers staying in the cars. I also recall windscreen covers to avoid cracks/ shattering from ballast and other such.

 

[Wandering Pom]

Wasn’t there a motorail train from Turkey to somewhere in Austria running summer only ?
Optima Express name rings the bell .

It was ( or is) private enterprise - have they made any money?

Yes, it's Optima Express. They run between Villach (Austria) and Edirne (Turkey); according to their website it's once a week each way from late April to mid-November. They also accept passengers without vehicles, and I think there are YouTube videos of the experience.
As far as I know it's a private operation, with haulage provided under contract by the relevant national railways. I assume they make money, otherwise the service would have stopped running.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, it's Optima Express. They run between Villach (Austria) and Edirne (Turkey); according to their website it's once a week each way from late April to mid-November. They also accept passengers without vehicles, and I think there are YouTube videos of the experience.
As far as I know it's a private operation, with haulage provided under contract by the relevant national railways. I assume they make money, otherwise the service would have stopped running.

And typical price for car, 2 adults a teenager and a <12 year old - around €700 one way…

 

[Egg Centric]

Separate related question: is there the infrastructure/rolling stock left in the UK to do a one off (or close to one off) heritage motorail service? Route doesn't have to particularly make sense nor does the pricing have to be "competitive" but should at least be physically and operationally practical.

 

[The Planner]

Separate related question: is there the infrastructure/rolling stock left in the UK to do a one off (or close to one off) heritage motorail service? Route doesn't have to particularly make sense nor does the pricing have to be "competitive" but should at least be physically and operationally practical.

Doubt it, would be surprised if any sort of ramp is left for the road/rail interface at any historic locations.

 

[JKF]

It’d make an interesting photo charter on somewhere like the GCR, with matching vintage vehicles, Vauxhall vivas, Mk1 Escorts, that sort of thing!

All those cars charging off the catenary at once, along with an electric loco... think of the current draw! Would each coach have its own pantograph to supply the chargers? That would mean a transformer in every coach too.

The obvious solution is to bring back the ETHELS. Maybe Harry Needle has that in mind for the two 25s he purchased not so long ago…

 

[class ep-09]

Separate related question: is there the infrastructure/rolling stock left in the UK to do a one off (or close to one off) heritage motorail service? Route doesn't have to particularly make sense nor does the pricing have to be "competitive" but should at least be physically and operationally practical.

Channel Tunnel ?

Avignon would be the place. 12 hours from London on a motorail service, minimum, plus check in, loading, unloading etc.

So time wise , very similar to driving , with advantage of being in bed while getting there , rather than trying to stay awake behind the wheel .
Also - why London ?

Is it not the most natural place for a motor rail train , going to The Continent , to start at Folkestone terminal , with infrastructure being in place and used all the time ?

I am surprised - lorries or trailers are not carried further to the EU on the freight shuttles through The Channel but they terminate in Calais ( may be wrong on that one ).