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Will XC take on the 221s from Avanti & the 222s from EMR?

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swt_passenger

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Will XC take on the 221s from AWC & the 222s from EMR but what will happen to the XC 170s?
There’ve been loads of previous threads about the possibilities but many people here just cannot see 22x being used as the normal stock on the present 170 operated routes. They are a hammer to crack a nut on the ex Central Trains services.

But adding to the fleet for the long distance Voyager operated routes is so obvious - yet there’s never been any official DfT proposal about it, as far as I know.
 

Anonymous10

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There’ve been loads of previous threads about the possibilities but many people here just cannot see 22x being used as the normal stock on the present 170 operated routes. They are a hammer to crack a nut on the ex Central Trains services.

But adding to the fleet for the long distance Voyager operated routes is so obvious - yet there’s never been any official DfT proposal about it, as far as I know.
only service i think a 22x may be justified on is the cardiff central - Nottingham service
 

HST43257

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I’m just waiting for the day that a bimode IET with decent seats and a third rail shoe can take XC routes then we don’t have to mess around with any of this 22x rubbish
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Avanti's 221s will be replaced in Dec '22 at the earliest.
You say that, but with the current pretty much axing of all London - Chester/North Wales and London - Glasgow via Birmingham services, and Avanti refusing to increase the services (instead only threatening further reductions due to strike action), the Voyagers could probably slip away unnoticed at this rate.
 

Esker-pades

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You say that, but with the current pretty much axing of all London - Chester/North Wales and London - Glasgow via Birmingham services, and Avanti refusing to increase the services (instead only threatening further reductions due to strike action), the Voyagers could probably slip away unnoticed at this rate.
The timetable can be increased again, and the current timetable structure relies on 125mph tilting paths for North Wales and other Voyager-run services. Remember the timescales involved are in the order of years, so a temporary strike timetable, or even this COVID reduced one, is not the timetable you should be basing your 'analysis' on.
 

JonathanH

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The timetable can be increased again, and the current timetable structure relies on 125mph tilting paths for North Wales and other Voyager-run services. Remember the timescales involved are in the order of years, so a temporary strike timetable, or even this COVID reduced one, is not the timetable you should be basing your 'analysis' on.
It could be surmised that where we are at the moment is probably as good as it is going to get given the pressures that are going to be applied to the railways costs (ie to rolling stock, staff and consequently services) over the course of the next few years.
 

david1212

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Until a new fleet with at least 50% more capacity replaces the Voyagers the only way for XC to provide enough capacity to meet demand for the timetable as summer 2019 never mind services once provided even if only one or two a day is to take on the Avanti 221s and EMR 222s.

Allocating 4-car 220s to Cardiff - Nottingham would release the 170's be that to other XC routes or another operator. However would this still leave overcrowding on the core routes ?
 

JonathanH

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Until a new fleet with at least 50% more capacity replaces the Voyagers the only way for XC to provide enough capacity to meet demand for the timetable as summer 2019 never mind services once provided even if only one or two a day is to take on the Avanti 221s and EMR 222s.
The other option is, of course, to reduce demand. The option that will win out is the one the Treasury will want to see implemented, particularly if they feel that providing more capacity will lead to more costs than the additional revenue it might generate.
 

david1212

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The other option is, of course, to reduce demand. The option that will win out is the one the Treasury will want to see implemented, particularly if they feel that providing more capacity will lead to more costs than the additional revenue it might generate.

True but given reducing rail demand will logically will put more people into their cars even if electric how does this fit in with the decarbonisation / emission reduction requirement by 2050.
 

The Ham

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True but given reducing rail demand will logically will put more people into their cars even if electric how does this fit in with the decarbonisation / emission reduction requirement by 2050.

Given that current electric cars (best emissions from road traffic) only broadly matches (on a per person per km) the current average of the rail network (including a lot of diesel use, which there's many battery support options which are cited as reducing diesel use by 20% and a lot of bimodal trains due to be delivered as well as ongoing electrification) it is likely that we'd still need to reduce car use (or at least not increase our car use by the circa 50% cited as being the likely increase by 2050) to reach net zero targets.

In the short term we need to grow rail use, or at least not do anything which limits the potential for growth. As such there is a need to increase capacity on XC.

Covid is likely to have a limited impact after about 5 years, at least in longer distance services like XC, however even if passenger numbers reach 2015 numbers in that timeframe there's still likely to be a need for extra capacity.

Using the existing 22x fleets, without mixing and matching, although getting rid of some end coaches, you could create a 13 x 9 coach 222's (plus an 8 coach unit) and a near total 5 coach fleet of 220's and 221's.

The 222's would give you enough to replace the HST's and the few services which currently run in pairs, maybe plus one or two extra services run as a full length train.

Having done that you'd have about 17 spare units to be able to run in pairs with other units, that may not sound like a lot, but it would probably allow about 1/2 the services to be 9 trains or 5+5 coach trains, with the potential for slightly more than half the services over the core to be run in pairs (assuming that the +5 part of the train turn around and coupled to another units at the edge of the core).

Although there would still be reasonable capacity uplifts just from upgrading from 4 to 5 coach units on those services which didn't see longer units in use.

In of you wanted more pairs of units you could retain the 220's as 4 coaches, however that does require more dept space, more track access charges and more maintenance costs for fairly limited increases in seating capacity. As such it'll be a case of balancing the benefits with the costs.

However given the uncertainty which HS2 brings to the XC services (for instance South Coast to Manchester woulld be noticeably faster, even though it would currently require two changes, using HS2 than the current XC services), then maybe it's worth seeing how HS2 starts to bed in, as well as what other electrification is complete, and then considering to start to replace the 22x's circa 2035 with bimodals units.
 

greatvoyager

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The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that if any additional stock is transferred to XC, it will be a case of either/or, but not both.
 

Roast Veg

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The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that if any additional stock is transferred to XC, it will be a case of either/or, but not both.
The AWC 221s are already at Central Rivers. Much more complex to incorporate the 222s.
 

JonathanH

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The AWC 221s are already at Central Rivers.
While that is true, and Central Rivers should be easily able to cope with a transfer of units between WC and XC, capacity at the other (lighter) servicing locations also has to be considered.
 

Roast Veg

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While that is true, and Central Rivers should be easily able to cope with a transfer of units between WC and XC, capacity at the other (lighter) servicing locations also has to be considered.
As does staffing arrangements, no doubt. But the AWC drivers that do the ECS transfers from Central Rivers will have to transfer one way or another.
 
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