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Without additional funding from government there is a real risk to the survival of Eurostar

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Chester1

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Fair point, provided all the electricity they are using is generated by non-fossil means. If "fuelling" electric planes meant firing a coal or gas fired power station up, then that's only slightly better than just burning the fossil fuel in the jet engines. Fundamentally air travel is very energy-hungry because not only do you need to shove the metal tube full of seats along, but you also need to hold it up, and it's quite heavy.

If it was all from nuclear, solar, wind etc then you'd be right.

We will have an entirely renewable electricity supply before we have a 737 / A320 style all electric plane. The challenges of the former are primarily economic while the later is reliant on significant advances in technology. Stena is due to order its first electric only ferry in 2025 with an expected range of 50 nautical miles. That would be more than sufficient for Dover-Calais. Its a different market to Eurostar but does highlight that rail won't have the monopoly on environmentally friendly international travel forever.

Don't get me wrong I support a bailout for Eurostar but not without conditions that either protect taxpayer money (secured loans) or a stake in future profits (cash for equity). The service is important but Eurostar as a legal entity is not. The branding is popular with rail enthusiasts and a certain kind of middle class europhile but the company doesn't need to continue in its current form for UK national interests to be met.
 
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AverageTD

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Is it at all possible that if Eurostar went under, SNCF would take the fleet for use elsewhere? Then the new presumably UK company would have to start from scratch without rolling stock, leading to a 2 or 3 years gap with no service. Or is there something to prevent SNCF from doing that?
 

ainsworth74

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I think we're getting a bit off-topic if we're going into electric planes! Please take it to a suitable thread (or create one) in the 'Other Transport' section :)
 

Ianno87

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Is it at all possible that if Eurostar went under, SNCF would take the fleet for use elsewhere? Then the new presumably UK company would have to start from scratch without rolling stock, leading to a 2 or 3 years gap with no service. Or is there something to prevent SNCF from doing that?

It would, presumably, be for Eurostar's administrators to determine would to do with the trains; SNCF would not be able to simply "take" them (the administrators would need to offer them for sale).
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it at all possible that if Eurostar went under, SNCF would take the fleet for use elsewhere? Then the new presumably UK company would have to start from scratch without rolling stock, leading to a 2 or 3 years gap with no service. Or is there something to prevent SNCF from doing that?

I think that's one reason why suggestions are being made that a UK bailout should basically take the form of a sale-and-leaseback of the E300 sets.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It would, presumably, be for Eurostar's administrators to determine would to do with the trains; SNCF would not be able to simply "take" them (the administrators would need to offer them for sale).

According to MR March (Keith Fender) the train fleet (mostly 374s now) has been mortgaged to French banks to provide a credit line for operations.
ES shareholders have put in €400 million already.
SNCF corporate finances are a maze because of the corporate restructuring package last year took most historical debt into central government hands (€35 billion).
ES has not tried to sell retired class 373s and is progressively scrapping them.
 

Ianno87

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According to MR March (Keith Fender) the train fleet (mostly 374s now) has been mortgaged to French banks to provide a credit line for operations.
ES shareholders have put in €400 million already.
SNCF corporate finances are a maze because of the corporate restructuring package last year took most historical debt into central government hands (€35 billion).
ES has not tried to sell retired class 373s and is progressively scrapping them.

So, in effect, the 374s are in the ownership of the French banks. If eurostar went under, they'd default on the payments, so the banks would be free to lease / sell them to whoever.

It's also entirely possible that even if UK Gov bought the 373s, eurostar wouldn't be interested in leasing them back anyway if they are surplus to capacity requirements in the short term (if the 374s are sufficient).
 

Ianno87

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That is possible, but they could lease them to a competitor.

I think it'll be brave for any attempt to start up a new competing operation for a couple of years at least, with traffic so uncertain and volatile, against an "established" competitor.

Plus any competitor would need depot / stabling facilities suitable for the 373 fleet; which almost certainly means some agreement to sub-contract the maintenance to Eurostar at Temple Mills, or SNCF at Le Landy, etc.
 

MotCO

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So, in effect, the 374s are in the ownership of the French banks. If eurostar went under, they'd default on the payments, so the banks would be free to lease / sell them to whoever.

Are there many other operators who would be interested in the 374s, other than for a Channel Tunnel service?

Calder is talking nonsense as per usual.

Can I step in to defend Simon Calder? Whilst I cannot comment on his grasp of economics, his knowledge of travel is second to none. I have heard him on radio phone-ins, and whatever question was asked of him anywhere in the world, he had been there and knew everyting there was to know (and more besides).
 

Ianno87

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Are there many other operators who would be interested in the 374s, other than for a Channel Tunnel service?

Fixed formation 400m trains are "niche" admittedly. Pretty sure every other high speed train in Europe is 200m (doubled up if necessary) for flexibility.
 
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There doesn’t appear to be any reference in the news reports about the ongoing merger plans between Eurostar and Thalys.
This was due to be completed in 2021, but is probably being slowed down by the current financial problems.

There hasn’t been any press reports or speculation about the likely proportions of share ownership of the new joint company.
Something the U.K. government are certain to be wary of.
 

Chester1

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According to MR March (Keith Fender) the train fleet (mostly 374s now) has been mortgaged to French banks to provide a credit line for operations.
ES shareholders have put in €400 million already.
SNCF corporate finances are a maze because of the corporate restructuring package last year took most historical debt into central government hands (€35 billion).
ES has not tried to sell retired class 373s and is progressively scrapping them.

Thats new. I struggle to see why our government would be prepared to offer loans if the whole 374 fleet has been mortgaged. There would be a high chance of losing a lot of taxpayer money.

If Eurostar's credit line runs out then its options are either a debt for equity swap with the French banks or issuing new shares. If it can't do either it would go into administration. If it does the Government should put in an offer for either the whole company or the 374 fleet.
 

ainsworth74

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According to MR March (Keith Fender) the train fleet (mostly 374s now) has been mortgaged to French banks to provide a credit line for operations.

Yeah you can find the documentation of these charges on Companies House for Eurostar International Limited (link to their page should be here). There's loads of them under the Filing History. I've attached one from July 2020 between Eurostar and Crédit Agricole acting as security agent for a number of different financial institutions (who presumably ponied up the line of credit) registered against 374 half-sets 4033 and 4034.
 

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FQTV

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Can I step in to defend Simon Calder? Whilst I cannot comment on his grasp of economics, his knowledge of travel is second to none. I have heard him on radio phone-ins, and whatever question was asked of him anywhere in the world, he had been there and knew everyting there was to know (and more besides).

He's a very affable chap in person, and he's very media-friendly for quite a few reasons.

His angle tends to be quite mass-consumer, so he comes across well on radio and television, and the 'man who pays his own way' print media position is a successful one, too.

Indeed, his astuteness is aguably in positioning himself in a clever niche, but no-one person could possibly be an expert of every aspect of travel, and he really isn't. Indeed, in quite a few radio appearances, he can actually get things rather wrong, but usually realises that he's a bit out of his depth and drops a generic caveat in at the end of an answer as a get out of jail free card.

In the context of @BahrainLad 's post, Mr. Calder is, I'm afraid, writing click-baity (and successfully-so) copy that is indeed nonsense, but drives traffic to The Independent and then gets picked up by other media outlets - some of whom may pay an appearance fee.

To be clear, there are possibly never any circumstances in which there are £59 easyJet flights from London to Geneva for socially-timed Saturday flights in the February half term peak peak ski season, and it's quite common in normal times to find easyJet charging £600, £700, £800 and more in for a one-way flight from London to a variety of destinations including Geneva, but also (for example) Nice when it's the Cannes Film Festival or the MIPIM property conference.

So, in the case of the article linked to by @LNW-GW Joint , it's really not all that unusual to be able to find the fares that he was talking about, and especially not for the dates that Simon Calder was quoting.

On that basis, @BahrainLad is quite right; airlines will pour capacity back in as soon as they can, and indeed that's one of the particular characteristics (and strengths) of shorthaul aviation over rail; that is to say that it's comparatively easy to open new routes, add frequencies, up-guage aircraft sizes etc., etc.

It's therefore really not at all relevant to the situation that Eurostar is going to find themselves in, even if they continue in their current guise. They will have to make decisions about short, medium and longer term strategies, and my feeling is that what will almost certainly happen in the short to medium term is:

1. they'll need to reintroduce fairly frequent services to tempt the flexible Business Premier fare-payers back, but
2. that will mean that overall they have far too much seating capacity initially owing to fixed-formation stock, so
3. they will then begin agressive promotional activity to get loads back up with discretionary leisure custom, and then
4. they will get a better idea of what the underlying high-yield demand looks like in the medium term, and
5. make informed decisions about routes, frequencies and service standards which might
6. result in fewer services, capacity matched more closely to demand, with higher average fares and less need for promotions

If that's correct, then as I posted upthread, there will be a sweet-spot of good deals during 'period 3'.

I also suspect that from a funder's perspective, whether that's a bank or the UK Government, it's the uncertainty about 'period 4' that makes it very difficult to decide whether there's a strategic need to support the existing operator, and whether or not further support or a 'bail out' is actually needed or desirable, or a fresh-start would have merit(s).
 

squizzler

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Informed sources tell me an operator of last resort is already lined up to run Eurostar services in the event of collapse and the new rolling stock is currently on test...

Russian Diplomat and family pushes a rail trolley of luggage through North Korea.


Yes, this is actual cross border rail travel between North Korea and Russia, reported in the News here. Note what must be 1435mm / 1520mm dual gauge track. It's discussed in its own thread here.
 
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daodao

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I think that's one reason why suggestions are being made that a UK bailout should basically take the form of a sale-and-leaseback of the E300 sets.
The UK should have nothing to do with a bailout of this foreign-owned company, should it unfortunately go belly-up. If it fails, it is predominantly a French problem. Eurostar passenger trains are not an "essential" public service. Many private airlines have gone bankrupt over the decades, and the most the UK government has done is the repatriation of stranded travellers. It should be ditto for Eurostar, but if it happened now, at least there would be far fewer people needing assistance to return home.

The Channel Tunnel would still in all probability be used for transporting passengers via "Le Shuttle" from Folkestone to Calais, including longer distance coach services, as far as Poland.

Many long distance passenger services across water have disappeared over the years, for example there are no longer any passenger ferries from the UK to Scandinavia, or train ferry services direct from Denmark's islands across to Germany (the remaining trains from Germany to Denmark run via the Jutland peninsula).
 
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Ianno87

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The UK should have nothing to do with a bailout of this foreign-owned company, should it unfortunately go belly-up. If it fails, it is predominantly a French problem.

Not true, it may be French-owned but it is of greater strategic value to the UK (to France it's just "another" international rail service)


Eurostar passenger trains are not an "essential" public service.

In the context of a climate emergency (where flying is no longer an environmentally acceptable alternative), and a UK that still wants to be connected to Europe (with folk whose livelihoods still depend on travelling between the two, it is very much "essential")


Many private airlines have gone bankrupt over the decades, and the most the UK government has done is the repatriation of stranded travellers. It should be ditto for Eurostar, but if it happened now, at least there would be far fewer people needing assistance to return home.

False equivalence. Airlines are effectively a free market - if one goes bust, another one will step in to pick up the routes instead in many cases.

The Channel Tunnel would still in all probability be used for transporting passengers via "Le Shuttle" from Folkestone to Calais, including longer distance coach services, as far as Poland.

Many long distance passenger services across water have disappeared over the years, for example there are no longer any passenger ferries from the UK to Scandinavia, or train ferry services direct from Denmark's islands across to Germany (the remaining trains from Germany to Denmark run via the Jutland peninsula).

Because passenger numbers were tiny indeed, and the ferries aren't really relevant any more. Eurostar, on the other had, normally is fundamentally profitable and carries thousands of passengers every single day, if it weren't for this pesky pandemic.

Peoples' opinions on here on Eurostar surviving basically seems to come down to what personal resentment you have towards the company, rather than any real objectivity.
 

daodao

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"a UK that still wants to be connected to Europe"
Undertaking Brexit is evidence against this supposition.
Peoples' opinions on here on Eurostar surviving basically seems to come down to what personal resentment you have towards the company, rather than any real objectivity.
I have no personal resentment or dislike of Eurostar; I am merely indifferent to its survival or demise. It is NOT an essential service, and it should be treated like any other international air or ferry service. If it isn't profitable, it shouldn't be bailed out or subsidised. It is not the only way to travel between the UK and Europe. It is also a relatively expensive and time-consuming way to travel between most of the UK and most of Europe, so only has a niche market.

The numbers of foreign born residents in the UK is probably a good indication of where UK residents might need to travel abroad. The top 4 countries in 2015 were as follows:

776,603​
703,050​
540,495​
503,288​

Eurostar is not useful for travel to/from these countries.
 
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Ianno87

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I have no personal resentment or dislike of Eurostar; I am merely indifferent to its survival or demise. It is NOT an essential service, and it should be treated like any other international air or ferry service.

It is only your opinion that it is not essential (presumably because you seldom/never use it) However, the people that have been using the skeleton service provided during lockdowns for necessary reasons would argue that it is essential.

If it isn't profitable, it shouldn't be bailed out or subsidised.

Nor is any other public transport at the moment. Nor quite a lot of public transport in normal times. Eurostar is, in normal times, fully profitable and stands on its own two feet.


It is not the only way to travel to Europe.

It is the most sustainable, environmentally friendly way to reach Europe, short of swimming there.
 

Wolfie

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The UK should have nothing to do with a bailout of this foreign-owned company, should it unfortunately go belly-up. If it fails, it is predominantly a French problem. Eurostar passenger trains are not an "essential" public service. Many private airlines have gone bankrupt over the decades, and the most the UK government has done is the repatriation of stranded travellers. It should be ditto for Eurostar, but if it happened now, at least there would be far fewer people needing assistance to return home.

The Channel Tunnel would still in all probability be used for transporting passengers via "Le Shuttle" from Folkestone to Calais, including longer distance coach services, as far as Poland.

Many long distance passenger services across water have disappeared over the years, for example there are no longer any passenger ferries from the UK to Scandinavia, or train ferry services direct from Denmark's islands across to Germany (the remaining trains from Germany to Denmark run via the Jutland peninsula).
In pure economic terms your argument might be sensible. Politically l seriously doubt that it is. HMG relies on the French Govt for a number of things. Annoying them so they either don't bother or at the very least reduce their effort really isn't clever....
 

daodao

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In pure economic terms your argument might be sensible. Politically l seriously doubt that it is. HMG relies on the French Govt for a number of things. Annoying them so they either don't bother or at the very least reduce their effort really isn't clever....

The French Govt regards the UK as Perfidious Albion, so the UK should simply do what is economically sensible.
 
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MotCO

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False equivalence. Airlines are effectively a free market - if one goes bust, another one will step in to pick up the routes instead in many cases.

Eurostar may have a monopoly, but cross channel passenger rail services need not be just limited to Eurostar. Therefore cross channel passenger rail services are a free market, and another operator could step in. Issues such as staffing and rolling stock, licences etc would need to be sorted though.
 

Ianno87

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Eurostar may have a monopoly, but cross channel passenger rail services need not be just limited to Eurostar. Therefore cross channel passenger rail services are a free market, and another operator could step in. Issues such as staffing and rolling stock, licences etc would need to be sorted though.

It would take a brave new entrant to attempt to enter the market now, whilst demand is so volatile whilst there is so little clarity on when international travel will return to something more normal to make such an operation commercially viable.
 

Wolfie

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The French Govt regards the UK as Perfidious Albion, so the UK should simply do what is economically sensible.
Fine. Then expect lots more small boats across the Channel, very possibly the end of juxtaposed border controls.....

Eurostar may have a monopoly, but cross channel passenger rail services need not be just limited to Eurostar. Therefore cross channel passenger rail services are a free market, and another operator could step in. Issues such as staffing and rolling stock, licences etc would need to be sorted though.
A "free market" involving three national Govts, yeah right, that's why there has been so much competition to date...... Do you really imagine, if HMG screws Eurostar, that the French Govt would rush to license a UK operator for example?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The French Govt regards the UK as Perfidious Albion, so the UK should simply do what is economically sensible.

That's an old stereotype. The practicalities usually win out.
That's not to say that Eurostar in its current form will survive, but I think the service will.
 

MotCO

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It would take a brave new entrant to attempt to enter the market now, whilst demand is so volatile whilst there is so little clarity on when international travel will return to something more normal to make such an operation commercially viable.

Agreed. But if Eurostar were to fall, a new company could come in and take over.
 

Gloster

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Many long distance passenger services across water have disappeared over the years, for example there are no longer any passenger ferries from the UK to Scandinavia, or train ferry services direct from Denmark's islands across to Germany (the remaining trains from Germany to Denmark run via the Jutland peninsula).
The diversion of the Copenhagen-Hamburg trains via Jutland is because a fixed link is being built across the Femern Belt and the work would be likely to seriously disrupt services if they continued to run over the traditional route. By diverting the services they are able to maintain a consistent and predictable timetable throughout the construction period, albeit with a small time penalty. If they didn’t consider the international service worthwhile, would they be planning a high-speed line between the two cities?
 
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DavidCarbonis

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People also seem to forget that financially Eurostar is domiciled in the UK for tax purposes. Thus, similarly to airlines with foreign shareholders but are UK taxpayers and who have been paid out, there's a financial incentive for the UK to support Eurostar. Morally as well I'd argue with airlines with a similar ownership/domicile status being supported.

I have no doubt that another operator would emerge, but I'm wary that it may take some time given the unique rolling stock requirements for the Channel Tunnel. Given that all of the 374s and some 373s have been put up as collateral for bank loans, the banks may decide they get a better return on investment by leasing them on the mainland.
 

StephenHunter

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I have no personal resentment or dislike of Eurostar; I am merely indifferent to its survival or demise. It is NOT an essential service, and it should be treated like any other international air or ferry service. If it isn't profitable, it shouldn't be bailed out or subsidised. It is not the only way to travel between the UK and Europe. It is also a relatively expensive and time-consuming way to travel between most of the UK and most of Europe, so only has a niche market.

The numbers of foreign born residents in the UK is probably a good indication of where UK residents might need to travel abroad. The top 4 countries in 2015 were as follows:

776,603​
703,050​
540,495​
503,288​

Eurostar is not useful for travel to/from these countries.
There are a lot of French people living in the South East of England; Eurostar is useful for them.
 
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