WMT Birmingham to Liverpool unit allocations

[modernrail]

Hi. I am not sure if this is the place to post and I hope not a repeat but equally can't believe it is the first time it has been raised.

Every WMT Birmingham to Liverpool I have caught recently has 3 plus 2 seating. I don't use the route much but more now than previously.

Is this normal? This route is quite clearly intercity and between 2 big populations. 4 carriage trains are bad enough but why 3+2 as well! No seat back tables or plugs either!

 

[VT 390]

Hi. I am not sure if this is the place to post and I hope not a repeat but equally can't believe it is the first time it has been raised.

Every WMT Birmingham to Liverpool I have caught recently has 3 plus 2 seating. I don't use the route much but more now than previously.

Is this normal? This route is quite clearly intercity and between 2 big populations. 4 carriage trains are bad enough but why 3+2 as well! No seat back tables or plugs either!

I think it is a bit random as to what turns up as I have been using the route quite a bit the past few weeks and it is usually a 350/2 (with 3+2 seating) which turns up and as these make roughly half the WMT 350 fleet this would mean about a 50% chance of getting 3+2 seating but I don't know if they diagram them like this or if it i random.
For the past 2 Saturdays though the 18:34 from Lime Street has had 2+2 seating (not sure if it was a 350/1 or 3) so this may show that there is some planning as to which services have which train operating them but could be just lucky that both weeks it has been a 350/1 or 3.

 

[AM9]

Hi. I am not sure if this is the place to post and I hope not a repeat but equally can't believe it is the first time it has been raised.

Every WMT Birmingham to Liverpool I have caught recently has 3 plus 2 seating. I don't use the route much but more now than previously.

Is this normal? This route is quite clearly intercity and between 2 big populations. 4 carriage trains are bad enough but why 3+2 as well! No seat back tables or plugs either!

Much like Euston to New Street, - there's plenty of class 350/2s turning up for that service and it is 16% further than New St. to Lime Street. Often the alternative is no train.

 

[modernrail]

I think it is a bit random as to what turns up as I have been using the route quite a bit the past few weeks and it is usually a 350/2 (with 3+2 seating) which turns up and as these make roughly half the WMT 350 fleet this would mean about a 50% chance of getting 3+2 seating but I don't know if they diagram them like this or if it i random.
For the past 2 Saturdays though the 18:34 from Lime Street has had 2+2 seating (not sure if it was a 350/1 or 3) so this may show that there is some planning as to which services have which train operating them but could be just lucky that both weeks it has been a 350/1 or 3.

Thanks. A further thought...have the ex-TPE units been allocated to go anywhere in particular or are they just going into the general pool? They might be useful on this route.

 

[modernrail]

Much like Euston to New Street, - there's plenty of class 350/2s turning up for that service and it is 16% further than New St. to Lime Street. Often the alternative is no train.

Yes but there is also a nice big shiny proper intercity alternative on that route, if you like smelly toilets.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks. A further thought...have the ex-TPE units been allocated to go anywhere in particular or are they just going into the general pool? They might be useful on this route.

With the way the diagrams are on LNR there is no particular route for anything. One unit can visit Liverpool, Tring, Rugeley and Crewe In a day. There are particular diagrams which are /2 but they are all over the network.
At least once the 730s are out all 350 work will be guaranteed 2+2.

 

[AM9]

Yes but there is also a nice big shiny proper intercity alternative on that route, if you like smelly toilets.

LNR's New St. to Lime St. service isn't Inter-City, it's a regional express, just like LNR's New St. to Euston offering, (arguably, either of them could be considered 'extended outer suburban').

 

[childwallblues]

You could basically guarantee a 350/1 on the original Euston to Crewe service before the 350/2 were fitted for 110mph.

 

[AM9]

You could basically guarantee a 350/1 on the original Euston to Crewe service before the 350/2 were fitted for 110mph.

It was really through a necessity to have a 110mph capable train in order to keep within the allocated path's times, so the 350/2s weren't operationally suitable. That's nothing to do with whether the trains have 3+2 seating, USB charging or tables.
Euston to Crewe takes nearly 3 hours, Birmingham International to Lime St., rather less at under 2 hours.

 

[sd0733]

You could basically guarantee a 350/1 on the original Euston to Crewe service before the 350/2 were fitted for 110mph.

It was more often than not a /1 but even when the /2s were 100mph there was loads of occasions they rocked up on a Trent, I.worked lots including some pairs. Not only did you have no tables etc but you knew youd be late as well to add insult to injury.
Northern always get labelled as having a random generator for diagrams but LM/LNR to be honest have never been any better, its just they all look the same!

 

[AM9]

It was more often than not a /1 but even when the /2s were 100mph there was loads of occasions they rocked up on a Trent, I.worked lots including some pairs. Not only did you have no tables etc but you knew youd be late as well to add insult to injury. ...

Of course, running to time (or running at all) is what the passenger has paid for. The interior layout of EMUs is not, so now all the 350s are 110mph capable, the TOC is making the right decision by running a /2 where it is not practicable to run the usual /1.

 

[BucksBones]

With the way the diagrams are on LNR there is no particular route for anything. One unit can visit Liverpool, Tring, Rugeley and Crewe In a day. There are particular diagrams which are /2 but they are all over the network.
At least once the 730s are out all 350 work will be guaranteed 2+2.

....but the 730 diagrams will be still be a random hotchpotch of 2+2 and 3+2! I still don’t understand why they’ve ordered both types.

 

[VT 390]

....but the 730 diagrams will be still be a random hotchpotch of 2+2 and 3+2! I still don’t understand why they’ve ordered both types.

I thought the 3+2 730's were specifically ordered for more local services at the London end? I know that with the current timetable the services inter work but this may change by the time they are introduced, if not will services either be booked for 730 or 350 operation as at least then you will know which services have guaranteed 2+2 seating.

 

[BucksBones]

I thought the 3+2 730's were specifically ordered for more local services at the London end? I know that with the current timetable the services inter work but this may change by the time they are introduced, if not will services either be booked for 730 or 350 operation as at least then you will know which services have guaranteed 2+2 seating.

If they are able to keep the 3+2 Aventras exclusively on south WCML stoppers I will be amazed!

 

[sd0733]

....but the 730 diagrams will be still be a random hotchpotch of 2+2 and 3+2! I still don’t understand why they’ve ordered both types.

Nor me, seems mad and just adds compliancations to the whole thing quite unnecessarily imho.

 

[martinsh]

Euston to Crewe takes nearly 3 hours

They've got it down to 2h 17m now

 

[sufian123]

They've got it down to 2h 17m now

Is that avoiding stoke?

 

[sd0733]

Is that avoiding stoke?

Yes. Some of the trains to Crewe are down to 2h07

 

[AM9]

They've got it down to 2h 17m now

Yes the Crewe xx:46 trains take 2:07 'ish, but the xx:50 trains take 3:07 and the xx:15s take 3:20.
The BHM to LIV service is much shorter though, the xx:04s taking 1:34 and the xx:36s taking 1:36, - there are journeys between cities, e.g. from Kent to Victoria that take longer than that, so the journey time is not necessarily incompatible with a 350/2 configuration.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nor me, seems mad and just adds complications to the whole thing quite unnecessarily imho.

Isn't it about delivering the required number of peak hour seats into London and Birmingham?
You probably can't do that with the existing fleet with 2+2 seating.
Liverpool and Trent Valley were never exclusively 2+2, it was something like 2/3, and now it's probably 1/3.
Now that there are some 8-car trains, you can also get combinations of both - take your pick.
I'd hazard a guess that more people travel Liverpool-Birmingham throughout than London-Northampton-Birmingham.

 

[sufian123]

Yes. Some of the trains to Crewe are down to 2h07

that’s quite a achievement thanks

 

[DarloRich]

Is this normal? This route is quite clearly intercity and between 2 big populations. 4 carriage trains are bad enough but why 3+2 as well! No seat back tables or plugs either!

Quite normal. Liverpool to Brum is a short distance route. The LNWR offering is not an intercity service. BTW I have often had a 350/2 on a Crewe ( either the new fasts or the older slows) spo cant imagine why Liverpool should be "special".

Thanks. A further thought...have the ex-TPE units been allocated to go anywhere in particular or are they just going into the general pool? They might be useful on this route.

Yes - which ever train I want to use. Hint. It wont be a Liverpool

You could basically guarantee a 350/1 on the original Euston to Crewe service before the 350/2 were fitted for 110mph.

I must have imagined all those times a 350/2 rolled in.................

but the 730 diagrams will be still be a random hotchpotch of 2+2 and 3+2! I still don’t understand why they’ve ordered both types.

Capacity and headline number of seats totals.

 

[childwallblues]

Quite normal. Liverpool to Brum is a short distance route. The LNWR offering is not an intercity service. BTW I have often had a 350/2 on a Crewe ( either the new fasts or the older slows) spo cant imagine why Liverpool should be "special
.

I would not call LIV-BHM short at 88 miles.
It is always busy serving Runcorm, Crewe, Stafford and Wolverhampton plus other smaller stations.

 

[DarloRich]

I would not call LIV-BHM short at 88 miles.
It is always busy serving Runcorm, Crewe, Stafford and Wolverhampton plus other smaller stations.

well the 350/2 are ideal then!

 

[Mikey C]

Had a couple of short LNWR journeys today, one on a Euston to Rugeley service, the other a Liverpool to Euston one, and both were 350/2s

 

[gazzaa2]

The issue is it's nearly always 4 cars and not 8 (in addition to never being on time).