Wolverhampton - Coventry local services

[AJS90]

In the late 1990’s/early 2000’s, the Wolverhampton - Birmingham stopping services extended to Coventry. But without having an actual timetable at hand, I’m perplexed as to how this worked in practice.
I know the Coventry locals had to leave New Street 3 minutes after the Euston service so they could arrive at Coventry ahead of the following XC or Silverlink service, but how did this work regarding the hourly Virgin services that started at Wolverhampton?

Today the Avanti Wolves - Euston services have a 5 minute layover at New Street, so did the locals have 10+ minute layover at New Street so they could be overtaken, or did the Virgin services follow them all the way from Wolves to Coventry?

 

[Bald Rick]

In the late 1990’s/early 2000’s, the Wolverhampton - Birmingham stopping services extended to Coventry. But without having an actual timetable at hand, I’m perplexed as to how this worked in practice.
I know the Coventry locals had to leave New Street 3 minutes after the Euston service so they could arrive at Coventry ahead of the following XC or Silverlink service, but how did this work regarding the hourly Virgin services that started at Wolverhampton?

Today the Avanti Wolves - Euston services have a 5 minute layover at New Street, so did the locals have 10+ minute layover at New Street so they could be overtaken, or did the Virgin services follow them all the way from Wolves to Coventry?

Don’t forget there were only 2 Virgin WC services an hour back then, and no services ex Shrewsbury going through to International. The timetable structure was different. New St ‘fast’ departures to Coventry back then were:

Xx06 Cross Country
Xx15 Virgin Euston
Xx36 Silverlink Euston
Xx45 Virgin Euston

Can’t remember when the stoppers departed. But I do remember that the running time for Virgin from Wolves to New St was 22-3mins including the S&D stop, whereas the stoppers were 25 mins all stops.

 

[Sprinter107]

I'm sure the locals left Wolverhampton at 22 and 52 past the hour. The called at all stns back then, no skip stops.

 

[P Binnersley]

I'm sure the locals left Wolverhampton at 22 and 52 past the hour. The called at all stns back then, no skip stops.

Correct,

The skip stops came in when Virgin started the 20 minute service and the locals had to change to fit in the new gaps. The local service was also split a Birmingham New Street.

From the Jan 1996 timetable (Monday-Friday).

xx:22 & xx52 all stations Wolverhampton to Coventry with a 3min stop at Birmingham New Street.
The Wolverhampton-Euston was xx:19 with a 3 min stop at New St dep xx:45 (Birmingham-Euston Intercity was dep xx:15).
The Manchester-Reading (Bournemouth) "Cross Country" was xx:40 from Wolverhampton with a 6 min stop at New Street.

 

[AJS90]

Don’t forget there were only 2 Virgin WC services an hour back then, and no services ex Shrewsbury going through to International. The timetable structure was different. New St ‘fast’ departures to Coventry back then were:

Xx06 Cross Country
Xx15 Virgin Euston
Xx36 Silverlink Euston
Xx45 Virgin Euston

Can’t remember when the stoppers departed. But I do remember that the running time for Virgin from Wolves to New St was 22-3mins including the S&D stop, whereas the stoppers were 25 mins all stops.

Thank you.

So the locals must have left New Street xx20 and xx50 with the XC and Silverlinks hot on their heels on the approach to Coventry. Must have been some very tight timing.

This fits in with the Walsall/Hednesford/Rugeley/Stafford stoppers at xx12 and xx42, with the Cross City departures at xx09, xx24, xx39 and xx54, which of course had to cross the WCML at grade back then.

 

[Bald Rick]

This fits in with the Walsall/Hednesford/Rugeley/Stafford stoppers at xx12 and xx42, with the Cross City departures at xx09, xx24, xx39 and xx54, which of course had to cross the WCML at grade back then.

Not after September 2000.

 

[ABB125]

which of course had to cross the WCML at grade back then.

What was the track arrangement back then (assuming you're talking about the junction just east of New Street)? I haven't looked too closely, but the bridge there doesn't look particularly new.

 

[Bald Rick]

What was the track arrangement back then (assuming you're talking about the junction just east of New Street)? I haven't looked too closely, but the bridge there doesn't look particularly new.

Proof House Junction.
The bridge was put in during Spring 1986(ish). Could have been the year before. BR intended to remodel the whole thing, but ran out of cash (as ever).

The full remodelling took place over 19 days in August 2000.

Before then, the lines towards Aston were a double junction from the Stour lines (towards Coventry). Only the up Stour (to Coventry) went under the bridge. Cross City services to/ from Aston used the Stour lines for a short while before crossing through a set of double crossovers on to the Derby lines for the approach to New St. Occasionally some would carry on the Stour lines and use the ‘Pines’ crossover in the New St throat.

Post remodelling, both Stour Lines swung under the bridge, and the Aston lines connected into the Derby Lines’s directly - ie today’s layout.

Somewhere I have a before and after layout drawn on the back of an envelope.

 

[ABB125]

Proof House Junction.
The bridge was put in during Spring 1986(ish). Could have been the year before. BR intended to remodel the whole thing, but ran out of cash (as ever).

The full remodelling took place over 19 days in August 2000.

Before then, the lines towards Aston were a double junction from the Stour lines (towards Coventry). Only the up Stour (to Coventry) went under the bridge. Cross City services to/ from Aston used the Stour lines for a short while before crossing through a set of double crossovers on to the Derby lines for the approach to New St. Occasionally some would carry on the Stour lines and use the ‘Pines’ crossover in the New St throat.

Post remodelling, both Stour Lines swung under the bridge, and the Aston lines connected into the Derby Lines’s directly - ie today’s layout.

Somewhere I have a before and after layout drawn on the back of an envelope.

Thanks very much.

Was putting the line towards Derby (ie: the third from the north) under the bridge as well considered, so that cross city trains would land in between the Derby lines and not interact with the Stour lines at all? Though this would probably make it a bit more difficult for trains from Aston heading towards Wolverhampton

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks very much.

Was putting the line towards Derby (ie: the third from the north) under the bridge as well considered, so that cross city trains would land in between the Derby lines and not interact with the Stour lines at all? Though this would probably make it a bit more difficult for trains from Aston heading towards Wolverhampton

No, as there wasn’t space to do it. But in any event, the Cross City trains don’t interact with the Stours at all.

Back then there was never any expectation of trains from Aston to head to Wolverhampton on a regular basis.

 

[ABB125]

No, as there wasn’t space to do it. But in any event, the Cross City trains don’t interact with the Stours at all.

Sorry, what I meant was not crossing the Derby line on the flat, though you've answered the question anyway! Reminds me that I should look at a map before posting questions like this

Back then there was never any expectation of trains from Aston to head to Wolverhampton on a regular basis.

You learn something new every day!

One final question (probably!): was the final 2001 track layout the same as BR had planned, or different?

 

[Bald Rick]

Slightly different. The BR version didn’t include the link from the Up Stour round to the Aston lines (the Down Vauxhall Chord). The new version did. It was particularly tricky from a track design point of view - negative cant through the turnout hence the 15mph speed limit (although I swear it used to be 10mph). The then ops manager wanted it to be 70mph, but then somebody had to explain the laws of physics to him. Lovely chap.

 

[ABB125]

Slightly different. The BR version didn’t include the link from the Up Stour round to the Aston lines (the Down Vauxhall Chord). The new version did. It was particularly tricky from a track design point of view - negative cant through the turnout hence the 15mph speed limit (although I swear it used to be 10mph). The then ops manager wanted it to be 70mph, but then somebody had to explain the laws of physics to him. Lovely chap.

Thanks - very interesting!

 

[AJS90]

Back then there was never any expectation of trains from Aston to head to Wolverhampton on a regular basis.

Yes there was. Walsall - Birmingham stoppers used to head to the low numbered platforms at New Street to form the semi-fasts back to Walsall which used the Stour Valley line as far as Soho Junction. These were run as circular services for operational purposes with the driver only changing ends at Walsall. It also led to the odd arrangement for a few years where for most of the day, Chase Line services ran semi-fast Walsall to Birmingham southbound, but all stations northbound.

 

[Dave91131]

Thank you.

So the locals must have left New Street xx20 and xx50 with the XC and Silverlinks hot on their heels on the approach to Coventry. Must have been some very tight timing.

xx18 and xx48 ex New Street to Coventry I believe.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes there was. Walsall - Birmingham stoppers used to head to the low numbered platforms at New Street to form the semi-fasts back to Walsall which used the Stour Valley line as far as Soho Junction. These were run as circular services for operational purposes with the driver only changing ends at Walsall. It also led to the odd arrangement for a few years where for most of the day, Chase Line services ran semi-fast Walsall to Birmingham southbound, but all stations northbound.

You’re quite right, sorry, I had Wolverhampton fixed in my head rather than ‘towards Soho on the Stours’ which in this context is the same thing.

 

[jfollows]

Proof House Junction.
The bridge was put in during Spring 1986(ish). Could have been the year before. BR intended to remodel the whole thing, but ran out of cash (as ever).

The full remodelling took place over 19 days in August 2000.

Before then, the lines towards Aston were a double junction from the Stour lines (towards Coventry). Only the up Stour (to Coventry) went under the bridge. Cross City services to/ from Aston used the Stour lines for a short while before crossing through a set of double crossovers on to the Derby lines for the approach to New St. Occasionally some would carry on the Stour lines and use the ‘Pines’ crossover in the New St throat.

Post remodelling, both Stour Lines swung under the bridge, and the Aston lines connected into the Derby Lines’s directly - ie today’s layout.

Somewhere I have a before and after layout drawn on the back of an envelope.

Here's my hand-drawn "before" layout, from around 1980.

 

[AJS90]

Here's my hand-drawn "before" layout, from around 1980.
View attachment 99820

Interesting, thank you.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perfect thank you!

The Stours to Derby double crossover used to be switch diamonds, and were always failing. These were fixed in the 2000 remodelling, and have never failed since

 

[Ianno87]

Here's my hand-drawn "before" layout, from around 1980.
View attachment 99820

Watching the Video 125 CrossCity Line cab ride (filmed 1995) - it feels very bizarre (knowing the layout operation today) to depart Platform 9 directly to the Up Stour on leaving New Street (obviously to then gain the route towards Aston)

 

[AJS90]

Perfect thank you!

The Stours to Derby double crossover used to be switch diamonds, and were always failing. These were fixed in the 2000 remodelling, and have never failed since

Are those crossovers actually used anymore?
And just out of interest, what’s a switch diamond?

 

[jfollows]

Are those crossovers actually used anymore?
And just out of interest, what’s a switch diamond?

The crossovers were replaced in the remodelling discussed earlier.
A switch diamond is as in the attached picture, in which the ends of the rails which make up the diamond crossing are moveable ie switched. This adds to the complexity of the diamond crossing and therefore can decrease reliability, but it allows for faster and smoother transits over the crossing. Slade Lane Junction south of Manchester is another which comes to mind.

EDIT It's interesting that this picture shows that the diamond crossing appears to be clamped/locked into a fixed configuration, maybe it had failed like the one mentioned in this thread, and had to be clamped to allow passage of trains in one way only.

EDIT To be clear, there are still diamond crossings in the new layout, between what are now termed the "Coventry" and "Derby" lines, in much the same place as before. I don't know whether or not they're switch diamonds today.

Current layout for reference: Diamond crossings between C and D

 

[Bald Rick]

No, they are not switch diamonds now, they were replaced with fixed diamonds in the 2000 remodelling.

Note that the picture above shows switch diamonds temporarily ‘fixed’ into position by the highly unsatisfactory method of propping them open with fishplates bolted to the sleeper!

Are those crossovers actually used anymore?

Not much in normal running.

 

[jfollows]

No, they are not switch diamonds now, they were replaced with fixed diamonds in the 2000 remodelling.

Note that the picture above shows switch diamonds temporarily ‘fixed’ into position by the highly unsatisfactory method of propping them open with fishplates bolted to the sleeper!

Thank you, I'd just noticed the fact that the switch diamonds had been fixed as you say!

 

[nw1]

Correct,

The skip stops came in when Virgin started the 20 minute service and the locals had to change to fit in the new gaps. The local service was also split a Birmingham New Street.

From the Jan 1996 timetable (Monday-Friday).

xx:22 & xx52 all stations Wolverhampton to Coventry with a 3min stop at Birmingham New Street.
The Wolverhampton-Euston was xx:19 with a 3 min stop at New St dep xx:45 (Birmingham-Euston Intercity was dep xx:15).
The Manchester-Reading (Bournemouth) "Cross Country" was xx:40 from Wolverhampton with a 6 min stop at New Street.

At that time (not sure about Jan 96, but certainly 1996-2000 period in general) also, the Manchester to Birmingham hourly service didn't necessarily go to Reading or Bournemouth - it depended on the hour. Some were Manchester to Birmingham only, and some of the Birmingham to Reading trains originated from eastern locations such as Leeds or Newcastle. That said there were still clockface patterns over each 'section' (xx17 off Manchester if I remember right, and xx06 off Birmingham to Reading, as already said).

 

[AJS90]

At that time (not sure about Jan 96, but certainly 1996-2000 period in general) also, the Manchester to Birmingham hourly service didn't necessarily go to Reading or Bournemouth - it depended on the hour. Some were Manchester to Birmingham only, and some of the Birmingham to Reading trains originated from eastern locations such as Leeds or Newcastle. That said there were still clockface patterns over each 'section' (xx17 off Manchester if I remember right, and xx06 off Birmingham to Reading, as already said).

And didn’t some extend beyond Reading to Brighton and Portsmouth 3-4 times per day. Was there also one or two to London Paddington or am I imagining that? I’m sure this has been discussed at length in another thread.

I’m trying to jog my memory of the Birmingham-Wolves line at that time. Wasn’t it something like 3tph InterCity (1 to Manchester, 1 to Glasgow and 1 to Wolves starting at Euston), 2 local stoppers, and 4 Regional Railways (2 to Shrewsbury with two hourly extensions to both Aberystwyth and Chester, 1 to Liverpool with some very clapped out 310’s and 1 to Holyhead with some even more clapped out loco hailed 37’s + Mk1). Also I think there was the hourly Hereford semi fast as far as Galton junction and the two Walsall semi fasts as far as Soho junction running in the paths of the Stourbridge stoppers which ran that way before the Jewellery line opened.

I’m fairly sure both Shrewsbury’s were semi-fast as there was a Wolverhampton-Wellington shuttle to serve the local stations. And didn’t some cross country services go to Liverpool? Not sure how these fitted in.

 

[nw1]

And didn’t some extend beyond Reading to Brighton and Portsmouth 3-4 times per day. Was there also one or two to London Paddington or am I imagining that? I’m sure this has been discussed at length in another thread.

Yes, there were definitely Brightons. Bournemouth was the most common destination but you had Brightons and Readings as well. Portsmouth came a little later, maybe around 1999/2000 perhaps, with additionals on top of the basic pattern, many of which were 158-operated (Virgin had a small number) and consequently limited-stop to prevent overcrowding.

Can't remember the southbounds, but in the late 90s the pattern out of Southampton Central was (approximate times) (and I realise this is getting OT but may be of interest):

0630 Scotland via Manchester, 47+coaches
0730 Liverpool, 47+coaches
0950 York HST
1150 Glasgow HST
1250 Edinburgh (ECML) HST
1450 Manchester (Pines Express) HST
1650 Manchester HST
1750 Manchester HST
1850 Manchester 47+coaches south of Birmingham, then 86
1950 Birmingham HST

The gaps were filled at Reading by Brightons or Reading originators, though I think some of these had non-clockface timings northbound. In those days some trains still originated at or worked into Paddington, as well.

I’m trying to jog my memory of the Birmingham-Wolves line at that time. Wasn’t it something like 3tph InterCity (1 to Manchester, 1 to Glasgow and 1 to Wolves starting at Euston),

Yes, fairly sure that's about right, not sure if the Glasgow was hourly, two-hourly or irregular some-hours-some-not, though.

2 local stoppers, and 4 Regional Railways (2 to Shrewsbury with two hourly extensions to both Aberystwyth and Chester,

Yes, that was right, I think this was this era. The Aberystwyths, at least some of them, had Pwllheli portions which on one service may have been a 153 (attached to a 158 for Aberystwyth)

1 to Liverpool with some very clapped out 310’s and 1 to Holyhead with some even more clapped out loco hailed 37’s + Mk1).

The 310s rings a vague bell. The Holyheads may not have been the whole era; I certainly remember for a while they only went to and from Crewe. Also I don't think they were clockface hourly; I seem to remember they were somewhat irregularly timed.

I’m fairly sure both Shrewsbury’s were semi-fast as there was a Wolverhampton-Wellington shuttle to serve the local stations. And didn’t some cross country services go to Liverpool? Not sure how these fitted in.

Trying to remember, I know there was a Shrewsbury terminator but can't remember whether it was all beyond Wolverhampton, or fast. I have the feeling it interworked with the Chester/Wales services.

There was at least one Virgin XC to Liverpool, from Poole (and back in the late afternoon); not sure if there were others. Northbound, it used a slot which it had used, more or less and give or take a half-hour or so, since at least 1983 (left Poole around 0650); I think the southbound slot also was pretty much unchanged over the years if I remember right (1530 or so out of Liverpool? Not 100% sure on this though).

 

[AJS90]

Yes, there were definitely Brightons. Bournemouth was the most common destination but you had Brightons and Readings as well. Portsmouth came a little later, maybe around 1999/2000 perhaps, with additionals on top of the basic pattern, many of which were 158-operated (Virgin had a small number) and consequently limited-stop to prevent overcrowding.

Can't remember the southbounds, but in the late 90s the pattern out of Southampton Central was (approximate times) (and I realise this is getting OT but may be of interest):

0630 Scotland via Manchester, 47+coaches
0730 Liverpool, 47+coaches
0950 York HST
1150 Glasgow HST
1250 Edinburgh (ECML) HST
1450 Manchester (Pines Express) HST
1650 Manchester HST
1750 Manchester HST
1850 Manchester 47+coaches south of Birmingham, then 86
1950 Birmingham HST

The gaps were filled at Reading by Brightons or Reading originators, though I think some of these had non-clockface timings northbound. In those days some trains still originated at or worked into Paddington, as well.



Yes, fairly sure that's about right, not sure if the Glasgow was hourly, two-hourly or irregular some-hours-some-not, though.


Yes, that was right, I think this was this era. The Aberystwyths, at least some of them, had Pwllheli portions which on one service may have been a 153 (attached to a 158 for Aberystwyth)

The 310s rings a vague bell. The Holyheads may not have been the whole era; I certainly remember for a while they only went to and from Crewe. Also I don't think they were clockface hourly; I seem to remember they were somewhat irregularly timed.

Trying to remember, I know there was a Shrewsbury terminator but can't remember whether it was all beyond Wolverhampton, or fast. I have the feeling it interworked with the Chester/Wales services.

There was at least one Virgin XC to Liverpool, from Poole (and back in the late afternoon); not sure if there were others. Northbound, it used a slot which it had used, more or less and give or take a half-hour or so, since at least 1983 (left Poole around 0650); I think the southbound slot also was pretty much unchanged over the years if I remember right (1530 or so out of Liverpool? Not 100% sure on this though).

Thank you. I clearly remember going to Penkridge market as a child in the mid 90’s and seeing 310’s crossing Penkridge viaduct on the Liverpool - Birmingham route. They were regular visitors to Walsall as well. I think the last one ran in 2000.

I’m fairly sure the Holyhead class 37’s used to run via Bescot northbound so the loco didn’t have to change ends at New Street. No idea why that service didn’t switch to 158’s in the early 90’s.

 

[JonathanH]

No idea why that service didn’t switch to 158’s in the early 90’s.

It did. There weren't enough 158s to provide the required capacity on all services because Regional Railways couldn't afford them.

See

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-long-left-for-sprinters.213382/page-2#post-4968027

 

[Snow1964]

Back in the 1980s and early 1990s stopping services to Coventry were timed to arrive at Coventry before the next fast train caught them up. They nearly always used platform 4 at Coventry so had to cross the whole layout.

From memory there was a crossover just after the Albany Road bridge which meant the route to Platform 1 (Euston trains) or Platform 2 (Cross country to south coast) could be kept clear. There was another complication in 1980s as about half the cross country services changed between diesel and electric locos so locos would be moving from one end of Coventry to other regularly.

The remainder of the cross country services use to swap locos at Birmingham (those heading north via Derby reversed there anyway). When cross country gained HSTs (and later voyagers) some of these complications taking up capacity went away.