Woodhead Electrification extensions to March and Woodford Halse

[Crisso]

There are historical references/rumours that, the original larger order for EM2 (Class 77) Locomotives, was to facilitate potential 1500v DC extensions from Rotherwood (near Sheffield), to both Woodford Halse and March. Obviously the former would have simply involved electrification of the GC Main Line through Nottingham Victoria and Leicester Central.
However, the March conversion could either be routed via Lincoln on the former GN/GE Joint Route or, via Retford and Peterborough, using part of the ECML. Since the emphasis on both routes was for Freight traffic, I would presume the former since, the emphasis was on being used for Freight traffic.

 

[30907]

There are historical references/rumours that, the original larger order for EM2 (Class 77) Locomotives, was to facilitate potential 1500v DC extensions from Rotherwood (near Sheffield), to both Woodford Halse and March. Obviously the former would have simply involved electrification of the GC Main Line through Nottingham Victoria and Leicester Central.
However, the March conversion could either be routed via Lincoln on the former GN/GE Joint Route or, via Retford and Peterborough, using part of the ECML. Since the emphasis on both routes was for Freight traffic, I would presume the former since, the emphasis was on being used for Freight traffic.

Interesting - do you have any references/links I could pursue?

Undoubtedly a route ending at March (Whitemoor!) would have been for freight, which makes the idea of extra EM2s puzzling
(29 not 7 according to: https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/em2.php)

 

[Springs Branch]

Interesting - do you have any references/links I could pursue?

I'd be interested in hearing more about this too - it's a new one for me. March and Woodford Halse sound like a lot of wires, gantries and electricity substations beyond Sheffield.

It's not an area I know much about, but I thought the next on the LNER's main-line electrification hit list after Woodhead was something like the ECML between Newcastle and York - before WW2 intervened and British Railways came into being.


Regarding the Woodhead scheme itself, there was a planned but cancelled "Phase 4", involving continuing electrification around the Fallowfield Loop into Manchester Central (for passengers) and to Trafford Park (for freight). This was cancelled beyond Reddish Depot as part of an early-1950s economy drive.

I read somewhere (can't recall where*) that prior to that 1950s cost-cutting, there had also been an aspiration to continue the DC wires from Manchester Central along the CLC route into Liverpool Central High Level - presumably also serving the Garston area and South Liverpool Docks for freight.

Maybe this hoped-for Liverpool Extension was the reason for the initial proposal for a larger number of EM2s? Could there have been a plan back in the day for regular EM2 loco-hauled expresses between Manchester Central and Liverpool Central, independent to the Sheffield services?

Another factor is, around the time of World War 2, railway companies would have had around 100 years of experience in working out how many steam engines were needed to operate a certain level of service, but no-one had real-life experience of how much more efficiently a fleet of main-line electric (or eventually diesel) locomotives could work the same number of daily trains. Maybe the relevant committee in HQ said something like: "We would need X steam locos to work hourly expresses between Manchester and Sheffield. Electrics will be more efficient, so we'll knock off - oh, let's say 15% - from that number. What does that come to Jenkins?" "29, sir."


[EDIT] * It was a post in a Woodhead-related thread on RMWeb here.
According to subsequent replies in that thread, the CLC Liverpool Extension was mentioned in an early edition of Backtrack magazine and in the Foxline book Woodhead - The Electric Railway.

 

[bgstrowger]

There's a reference in Mac Hawkins' book on the Great Central about a bridge at Wolfhampcote being rebuilt in the 50s with OHLE brackets fitted. Suggests there may have been plans to extend the electrification down the GCML?

 

[Helvellyn]

Extensions to Woodford Halse and March make sense if it was seen as an expansion of the rationale for the original scheme - to remove steam from the Pennine freight services (mainly coal).

I believe Woodford Halse was the major interchange with the GWR, so bulk hauling freight to there under electric might have been seen as a way to significantly reduce operating costs. Similarly with March for I assume onward transfer to former Great Eastern routes.

Once you have major freight arteries electrified filling in the gaps for passenger services might have been easier to build a case for?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Maybe this hoped-for Liverpool Extension was the reason for the initial proposal for a larger number of EM2s? Could there have been a plan back in the day for regular EM2 loco-hauled expresses between Manchester Central and Liverpool Central, independent to the Sheffield services?

Another factor is, around the time of World War 2, railway companies would have had around 100 years of experience in working out how many steam engines were needed to operate a certain level of service, but no-one had real-life experience of how much more efficiently a fleet of main-line electric (or eventually diesel) locomotives could work the same number of daily trains. Maybe the relevant committee in HQ said something like: "We would need X steam locos to work hourly expresses between Manchester and Sheffield. Electrics will be more efficient, so we'll knock off - oh, let's say 15% - from that number. What does that come to Jenkins?" "29, sir."

Remember the "M" in EM2 stood for "mixed traffic". It turned out the EM1s were better at freight over Woodhead than the EM2s, but that wasn't known when the original orders were placed. (And indeed, on the relatively flat "Joint" line the advantage may have been with the EM2s)

 

[eldomtom2]

I read somewhere (can't recall where*) that prior to that 1950s cost-cutting, there had also been an aspiration to continue the DC wires from Manchester Central along the CLC route into Liverpool Central High Level - presumably also serving the Garston area and South Liverpool Docks for freight.

[EDIT] * It was a post in a Woodhead-related thread on RMWeb here.
According to subsequent replies in that thread, the CLC Liverpool Extension was mentioned in an early edition of Backtrack magazine and in the Foxline book Woodhead - The Electric Railway.

The idea of extending wires from Woodhead over the CLC was still kicking around as late as 1965, when it was mentioned in the Major Trunk Routes report as one of the reasons for keeping Woodhead over Hope Valley or Peak Forest.

 

[Springs Branch]

Another thread on the RMWeb site from about 12 years ago covered aspects of the OP's question (but no mention of Woodford Halse)
Here are some extracts of relevant posts from that thread ....

Here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/66167-br-1500v-dc-electrification-schemes/

In the early 1950s, BR reiterated its desire to standardise on 1,500v DC for future mainline electrification. A committee was set up to prepare a GN suburban scheme from KX to Hitchin at this voltage.

Another BR report on the Types of Motive Power (1951) suggested examination of extending this electrification from Hitchin to Cambridge and, more interestingly, along the ECML to Grantham, then branching off to Nottingham then up the Great Central to join up with the then being completed MSW electrification at Rotherwood. This might be where we got the initial order for 27 EM2s from, rather than the seven actually built.

The report explicity includes mention of electrification to Colwick Yard.

Does anyone know if there were plans to extend electrification not just via Nottm Victoria, but also beyond Colwick via the ex-GN line "Back Line" through Mapperley Tunnel, then onto the GN Leen Valley line to rejoin the GC at Annesley? Or was a new direct spur planned in the Basford/Bulwell area to connect with the GC there?

Here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topi...cation-schemes/?do=findComment&comment=895411

In the 1980's whilst working at BR's then York ER HQ, I did see a document that looked at 1500DC electrification using the MSW scheme and those above but also extending east to March and Ipswich (!), and west along the Fallowfield Loop from Fairfield into Manchester Central, and thence to Liverpool.

Pretty sure that the 'proposal' stage was as far as it got though, as the original MSW did plan to go west along the Loop and some canopies at Fallowfield and Wilbraham Rd were actually cut back, I think. As above I think that this was about coal trains, tho the Boat train from Liverpool to Parkeston Quay (as it was then) could then have been an EM2 loco. What we would all pay to travel on that train and route now.....

And here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topi...cation-schemes/?do=findComment&comment=895546

The LNER had commissioned a consultant's report on large scale 1500V DC electrification in 1930 . This covered nearly all the ground mentioned (plus fairly comprehensive electrification in Lincolnshire) and was meant as a study to see what was possible or would be viable.

The consultants were explicitly told to assume that the KX suburban area was already electrified, as the case for suburban electrification was clear.

What Western Sunset and paulbb are describing sounds like a post war ER attempt to blow the dust off the prewar studies and come up with a sensible electrification programme for the post war world . The 1930 study proposed KX/Leeds electrification. The 1950s schemes sound like an attempt to get phase 1 in place , to Grantham, and link up with the MSW scheme - meaning GC services would have changed to electric at Nottingham , not Sheffield .I remember reading somewhere (Eastern Electric?) that CLC electrification was blocked by LMS/LMR interests - certainly it would have been a logical extension of the MSW scheme, and if carried out we might still have had 1500V electric trains running Liverpool/Sheffield (or at least until a 25kV conversion in the late 80s...)

The original order for 27 EM2s with 90mph capability has always suggested to me that the ER were envisaging something much bigger than MSW. The EM2 made limited sense on a route with a 65mph line limit.

Also this one: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topi...cation-schemes/?do=findComment&comment=895547

The LNER initially had plans before the war to 1500V dc the lines from Kings X to York and Shenfield-Colchester-Clacton-Norwich. I think you can see a little of LNER joined up thinking here: Not far from Grantham/Retford to Sheffield.

I have plans here for Reddish Depot extension for an additional 12 X GE 3 Car EMUs (I assume Class 306 in their 1500V dc form) The was titled 'LNER Liverpool Extension Proposals', I think the problem was the 2nd world war got in the way.

This I assume was the Metropolitan Vickers logic for having 27 Class EM2 95mph 2750HP locomotives and more Class EM1s too. The LNER was abolished, and the LMS at Derby took over, thus we saw concentration of traffic onto the Midland Mainline & West Coast at the expense of the Great Central & East Coast. On electrification the proposals looked at West Coast & East Coast at 25Kv, of course the buisest and most populated was the West Coast.

Shame really as Eurostars could now be running to Manchester via Nottingham & Sheffield as the GC was to Bern loading gauge. That's forward planning for you!

 

[Falcon1200]

It turned out the EM1s were better at freight over Woodhead than the EM2s, but that wasn't known when the original orders were placed.

Surely the EM1s were always planned to be the prime freight locos, given that there were far more of them than the EM2s, and most of them never had boilers!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes I’d be more interested in hearing about the Woodford Halse electrification scheme. Someone mentioned it on here quite recently, having read about it in a train magazine from the 1930s I believe.

 

[Snow1964]

Haven't found one for Woodhead, but the LNER contract for Liverpool Street suburban of about the same date, gives various tables of costs, so presumably costs and savings were similar.

We know that most of the gantries on Woodhead line were erected before war stopped work (although wiring wasn't strung at that point)

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/LNER_GEElectrificationContract1939.pdf

 

[Mat17]

It's a real shame the various extensions never came to fruition, as it was, we lost the prime route over the pennines and got left with the Hope Valley backwater. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Revaulx]

I’m not sure how much of the Woodhead freight actually ended up on the London extension. Most of the huge amount of coal traffic passing through Woodford Halse seemed to originate from the Notts/Derbyshire fields.

Eastward and westward extensions would appear to be a lot more useful and cost-effective. And surely the ECML would have taken priority over the Joint Line to March.

In addition to the CLC to Liverpool, a short extension from Wath to Doncaster (along with Woodburn Jn to Mexborough) would seem a good way to start. Next stop Immingham?

Given the success of the MSJ&A electrification of the early 30s, it seems odd that the LMS was hostile to further joint projects with the LNER. Maybe the latter’s inability to come up with the funds for the Leeds City rebuild made the LMS wary.

 

[Taunton]

If the scheme really to electrify to Woodford Halse, that was silly. The coal trains from Annesley etc did indeed run to Woodford, middle of nowhere in Northamptonshire, where they went into the yard and were resorted, only because Annesley and Sheffield etc dispatched them "southbound rough sorted". After a day or so most were taken on the 10 miles to Banbury, interchange with the GWR, where they were resorted again. Quite why the electrification could not have gone to Banbury is by the by. "We have always gone to Woodford". Only a minority went onward by the GC towards London.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

If the scheme really to electrify to Woodford Halse, that was silly. The coal trains from Annesley etc did indeed run to Woodford, middle of nowhere in Northamptonshire, where they went into the yard and were resorted, only because Annesley and Sheffield etc dispatched them "southbound rough sorted". After a day or so most were taken on the 10 miles to Banbury, interchange with the GWR, where they were resorted again. Quite why the electrification could not have gone to Banbury is by the by. "We have always gone to Woodford". Only a minority went onward by the GC towards London.

It seems that the LNER "plans" were simply to replace steam locomotives with electric ones, without trying to improve anything else or to foresee changes that might be imposed from outwith the railway. The same problem bedevilled the BR Modernisation Plan a few years later

 

[nw1]

I had to lookup where Woodford Halse was. The name sounded slightly familiar but not sure where from. Certainly in the middle of nowhere these days!

As a rough idea, it appears to be very close to that large telecommunications tower some way east of the Banbury-Leamington line and clearly visible from it.

 

[Revaulx]

It seems that the LNER "plans" were simply to replace steam locomotives with electric ones, without trying to improve anything else or to foresee changes that might be imposed from outwith the railway. The same problem bedevilled the BR Modernisation Plan a few years later

Not really; they ordered EMUs for both Manchester-Hadfield and Liverpool St-Sheffield electrification.

They also had no money to fritter away unlike BR with the Modernisation Plan. I’m not sure what they could have tried to improve without any; electrification sounds sexier than resignalling and would have been more likely to attract Government loans.

 

[AM9]

Not really; they ordered EMUs for both Manchester-Hadfield and Liverpool St-Sheffield electrification.

And those EMUs gave unbroken service from around 1950 until well into the '80s. Had the war not delayed their introduction, the decision to convert the latter to ac might have been delayed.

 

[Magdalia]

I haven't looked at the pre WWII history of this in any detail. I only have part 3 of Bonavia's LNER History, and the first place I would be looking would be parts 1 and 2. That's on my research list.

Most of the huge amount of coal traffic passing through Woodford Halse seemed to originate from the Notts/Derbyshire fields.

This also applied to the coal traffic to London and the south east.

Eastward and westward extensions would appear to be a lot more useful and cost-effective. And surely the ECML would have taken priority over the Joint Line to March.

The route for this was the Lincolnshire, Derbyshire and East Coast Railway (LD&ECR) to Lincoln then via Spalding to Whitemoor and New England. It did not touch the ECML until south of Peterborough, where much of the route was 4 tracks.

If the scheme really to electrify to Woodford Halse, that was silly. The coal trains from Annesley etc did indeed run to Woodford, middle of nowhere in Northamptonshire, where they went into the yard and were resorted, only because Annesley and Sheffield etc dispatched them "southbound rough sorted". After a day or so most were taken on the 10 miles to Banbury, interchange with the GWR, where they were resorted again.

had to lookup where Woodford Halse was. The name sounded slightly familiar but not sure where from. Certainly in the middle of nowhere these days!

Woodford Halse wasn't just the junction for the Banbury line (strictly speaking that was at Culworth). Traffic for South Wales went via the Stratford Upon Avon and Midland Junction Railway (SMJR), in order to avoid the Severn Tunnel, so needed to be sorted at Woodford Halse not Banbury.

The Annesley to Woodford Halse operation was one of the most efficient freight movements of the steam era and can be regarded as the grandfather of merry-go-round (MGR). It was specifically designed so that train crews and steam locos could do a full round trip of about 130 miles in one shift. With steam traction this couldn't be achieved for Whitemoor and New England coal trains, which changed crews at Pyewipe Junction near Lincoln.

In those days another key factor for moving coal was gradients: Woodhead was electrified first because it had the steepest gradients. Although the Great Central London Extension is not as heavily graded as Woodhead it does have 2 long stretches of 1 in 176 up to the summits at Ashby Magna and Charwelton, whereas the routes to Whitemoor and New England were relatively flat.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I haven't looked at the pre WWII history of this in any detail. I only have part 3 of Bonavia's LNER History, and the first place I would be looking would be parts 1 and 2. That's on my research list.



This also applied to the coal traffic to London and the south east.



The route for this was the Lincolnshire, Derbyshire and East Coast Railway (LD&ECR) to Lincoln then via Spalding to Whitemoor and New England. It did not touch the ECML until south of Peterborough, where much of the route was 4 tracks.




Woodford Halse wasn't just the junction for the Banbury line (strictly speaking that was at Culworth). Traffic for South Wales went via the Stratford Upon Avon and Midland Junction Railway (SMJR), in order to avoid the Severn Tunnel, so needed to be sorted at Woodford Halse not Banbury.

The Annesley to Woodford Halse operation was one of the most efficient freight movements of the steam era and can be regarded as the grandfather of merry-go-round (MGR). It was specifically designed so that train crews and steam locos could do a full round trip of about 130 miles in one shift. With steam traction this couldn't be achieved for Whitemoor and New England coal trains, which changed crews at Pyewipe Junction near Lincoln.

In those days another key factor for moving coal was gradients: Woodhead was electrified first because it had the steepest gradients. Although the Great Central London Extension is not as heavily graded as Woodhead it does have 2 long stretches of 1 in 176 up to the summits at Ashby Magna and Charwelton, whereas the routes to Whitemoor and New England were relatively flat.

Interesting that the LMS didn't consider electrification over Shap for that matter.

I had to lookup where Woodford Halse was. The name sounded slightly familiar but not sure where from. Certainly in the middle of nowhere these days!

As a rough idea, it appears to be very close to that large telecommunications tower some way east of the Banbury-Leamington line and clearly visible from it.

Yes, the Charwelton Microwave mast. Interestingly, BT's microwave transmission route, well one of them, essentially followed the Great Central out of London. Starting at the BT tower, then heading to Stokenchurch, Charlwelton, then Copt Oak near Leicester