Worcester to Alvechurch, and also what does "Not via Birmingham" mean?

[jednick]

Yesterday, I bought an off-peak day return from Worcester to Alvechurch for just £5.40. I have a few questions about this ticket.

Firstly, given the fact that there were no trains stopping at Barnt Green on the Worcester Foregate Street to Birmingham New Street journey, I have to change at University (Birmingham) station, then come back down on myself to get to Alvechurch.

So my first question is, if I were really going from Worcester to any intermediate station between University and Alvechurch, such as Bournville or Longbridge, what's stopping me from buying the £5.40 Worcester to Alvechurch day return and just breaking my journey on the way journey from University to Alvechurch?

This saves £3.60 on the normal off-peak day return price from Worcester to Bournville/Longbridge, representing a massive saving. Or, I could buy this Worcester to Alvechurch off-peak day return ticket at £5.40 and also a University to Birmingham off-peak day return at £2.50 and travel into New Street, saving £1.10 on the normal off-peak day return price from Worcester to Birmingham.


Secondly, what exactly does "Not via Birmingham" mean, precisely? In the case of this ticket, it must mean something like "Not valid for changing at Birmingham New Street but valid for changing at University".

Now, University station is definitely well within Birmingham, albeit not in the centre. So, is it assumed that "Not via Birmingham" means not valid via any train station in Birmingham city centre, namely New Street, Snow Hill and Moor Street?

If this is the case and I can't travel via those three stations but I can and must travel via University on this "Not via Birmingham ticket", what about Five Ways station? It's between University and New Street stations. Could I in theory on this ticket change at Five Ways? (It would take longer, yes, but I could walk/bike into Birmingham city centre from there).

 

[yorkie]

The double back is permitted by an easement:

Customers travelling from or via Bromsgrove to Alvechurch or Redditch in possession of tickets routed "Not Via Birmingham" may double back between Barnt Green and University stations. This easement applies in both directions.

If you are not travelling in accordance with the above (e.g. if you are actually travelling from Alvechurch to Birmingham) it could potentially be argued that it does not apply and therefore your ticket would be invalid beyond Barnt Green.

In theory you could counter that by saying you are going to Worcester later and merely breaking your journey at University. But I am not sure that's an argument I'd want to have with a prosecution department!

Not via Birmingham either means not via Birmingham Routeing Group, or not via Birmingham Stations. Either way it does not include University, regardless of its geographical location being with Birmingham.

I'm not sure if people from Aston like being associated with Birmingham, but Aston is a member of Birmingham (Routeing) Group but not Birmingham Stations; I recall there was a major debate about whether or not Wrexham & Shropshire has to accept them on trains which went via Aston but not Birmingham Stations. I recall their MD informed us they received no revenue for 'via Birmingham' fares, so we advised him to insist on receiving a fair allocation.

The view of some people in the rail industry appears to be that it refers to Birmingham Stations; there are fares intended for use via Aston which are routed 'not via Birmingham' . However others disagree, and booking engines tend to refuse to issue these fares, so you can only get them from a booking office. Madness, but entirely normal! It's been this way for as long as I can remember.

But from your direction there is no doubt 'Not via Birmingham' allows you to double back via University, but no further.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the comment about Five Ways, that is a Zone 1 station.

In the second half of the 1990s when I used to reside in the West Midlands, the West Midlands PTE introduced concentric zones similar to Greater London.

The Zone 1 stations in the PTE area are Birmingham New Street, Moor Street, Snow Hill, Jewellery Quarter, and Five Ways. In the early Noughties, afternoon peak restrictions were introduced at these stations for the former British Rail Cheap Day Returns that start or end at any of the Zone 1 stations.

University station is in Zone 2, hence "Not via Birmingham" fares are accepted and valid for the doubleback between there and Barnt Green.

Of note, I am not sure what would exactly happen to this fare when electric services are extended from Longbridge to the 2016 site of Bromsgrove station in the near future. As I believe the frequency would be every 20 minutes, I am leaning towards the doubleback being withdrawn, as I do not remember it being in existence before 1996.

 

[Merseysider]

If not using a direct train, shortest route, or route permited by an easement, "Not via Birmingham" would forbid travel via any member of Birmingham Group, as detailed in the Routeing Guide.

These stations are Aston, Duddleston, Moor Street, New Street and Snow Hill.

As your proposed itinerary is permitted by an easement, it is a valid route for the through journey.

Neither Five Ways nor University are members of Birmingham Group.

Edit: if they were, you could still change trains there due to the easement, but you couldn't use a route shown in the NRG which passed through Birmingham Group.

 

[island]

"Not via Birmingham" forbids travel via any member of Birmingham Group, as detailed in the Routeing Guide.

Got a source for that assertion?

 

[Andrew1395]

I think terms like Not Via Birmingham are defined in Fares data not the Routeing Guide. Or at least it used to be. Even the term Birmingham Group used to mean different things in Fares and Routeing Guide.

 

[greatkingrat]

"Not via Birmingham" forbids travel via any member of Birmingham Group, as detailed in the Routeing Guide.

These stations are Aston, Duddleston, Moor Street, New Street and Snow Hill.

As your proposed itinerary passes through none of these stations, and the doubleback is permitted by an easement, it is a valid route for the through journey.

Neither Five Ways nor University are members of Birmingham Group.

So on what routes do you think a Witton - Gravelly Hill (Not Via Birmnghm) ticket is valid then?

 

[Merseysider]

So on what routes do you think a Witton - Gravelly Hill (Not Via Birmnghm) ticket is valid then?

• Any direct train not passing through Birmingham STNS, so a reversal at Aston or Duddeston would be fine despite them being members of Birmingham Routeing Point Group
• The shortest route, so a change at Aston, despite it being a member of Birmingham Routeing Point Group
• Any route permitted by an easement
• Any route shown in the Routeing Guide which does not pass via a Birmingham Station, ie New Street. If you are tracing a mapped route in the Routeing Guide, Aston and Duddeston will be shown under 'Birmingham Routeing Point Group'. Birmingham Routeing Point Group also contains Birmingham New Street. You can't trace a permitted route on the maps via a Routeing Point or Routeing Point Group containing a forbidden station.

Similarly, Edge Hill is a member of Liverpool Group, but is not a member of Liverpool Stations. Wigan - York has the following fare routes:
NOT PRESTON/LPOOL
ANY PERMITTED

Assume a permitted route in the Routeing Guide is Wigan - Liverpool - York

You could use a Wigan - York NOT PRESTON/LPOOL ticket on a through train which reversed at Edge Hill, despite Edge Hill being a member of Liverpool Group.
You could use a Wigan - York NOT PRESTON/LPOOL ticket on the shortest route, so if the shortest route were hypothetically via Edge Hill, you could travel Wigan - Edge Hill and then Edge Hill - York, despite Edge Hill being a member of Liverpool Routeing Group.
You could not use a route shown on maps in the Routeing Guide which went via Liverpool Group, using a NOT PRESTON/LPOOL ticket, even if it was possible to complete that route by changing at Edge Hill and avoiding Liverpool Stations, as Liverpool Group contains both of the above.

Got a source for that assertion?

I was talking about finding additional permitted routes in the Routeing Guide but I don't think I made that clear. I wasn't trying to argue that Birmingham Stations = Birmingham Group. Apologies for any confusion.

 

[yorkie]

Got a source for that assertion?

National Routeing Guide Data Feed Specification

Example Route Data
/ Route 00461 (AP BHAM RUGBY)
/ Route includes Birmingham and Rugby. Birmingham is a routeing guide group.

The "GROUP_MKR" field can either contain "N" for an individual location, or "Y" for a routeing guide group.

The "Not via Birmingham" fares from stations north of Birmingham which can be made interchanging at Aston, should be changed to an individual location, which should be BHM (Birmingham New Street).

However the fares routed "via Birmingham" should remain as they are.

Someone could ask London Midland to change it, though whether or not LM have a Routeing Guide expert to understand the above, I do not know. If not, they could ask ATOC for assistance, I'm sure.

So on what routes do you think a Witton - Gravelly Hill (Not Via Birmnghm) ticket is valid then?

I believe the relevant pricing manager at the time erroneously thought "Not via Birmingham" meant "Not via Birmingham New Street/Stns" and intended the fare to be used via Aston.

(There is a potential argument to say that the fare must be valid by some route, and as it's not valid via Birmingham Group, travel must therefore be made via the shortest route which would not involve travelling via Birmingham Group, ie via Lichfield Trent Valley & Rugeley Trent Valley. However that is not an argument I would want to be making )

 

[Merseysider]

This is making my head hurt

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Coincidentally I travelled from Worcester to Alvechurch as well yesterday (Bank Holiday Monday). I've done this a couple of times before via University on a not-Birmingham ticket. Yesterday I was actually travelling at the time that there was a Worcester service stopping at Barnt Green, so I decided to change there...

...only to realise it was actually even quicker to cycle from Barnt Green to Alvechurch rather than wait for the Cross-City. Could have saved myself 40p.