Working Time Table or STN

[Andy873]

What general "rules" would dictate which one a train would be shown in?

I can understand that if a train is only running once, say for a special / holiday excursion it would likely be in an STN.

I'm told that in 1959 the C223 Blackburn - Scarborough / Filey holiday camp (twice) plus one from Padiham (once) and Westhoughton (once) were in the WTT.

I can find no such train in my 1962 WTT? I know it was still running in 1964.

What it does show is the 1M09 7.04am Rotherham to Blackpool North (SO)... the thing is with this one, it only runs twice. 28 July & 4 August.

Why can't I find that Blackburn - Scarborough train? and why is the 1M09 Rotherham one included in the summer 1962 WTT and not an STN?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Magdalia]

I can find no such train in my 1962 WTT? I know it was still running in 1964.

What it does show is the 1M09 7.04am Rotherham to Blackpool North (SO)... the thing is with this one, it only runs twice. 28 July & 4 August.

The 7.4 am Rotherham Masboro-Blackpool is a train I'm familiar with. It is also in the ER public timetable, and is the only example I know of a public timetable summer Saturday train only advertised to run twice.

But twice only wasn't always the case. The number of dates reduced from 6 to 2 between 1960 and 1961:

1959 18/07-22/08
1960 16/07-20/08
1961 29/07 and 05/08
1962 28/07 and 04/08

1962 was the last year it was advertised in the public timetable.

Last Saturday in July was start of the Sheffield Wakes Weeks, hence the train surviving longest on the last Saturday in July and first Saturday in August.

 

[jfollows]

I would hazard that if a train's in the public timetable then it ought to be in the working timetable as well.
If a train's not in the public timetable then it could still be in the working timetable, where it'd likely be marked as "not advertised", but would also be a candidate for the special traffic notice instead.

 

[Andy873]

The 7.4 am Rotherham Masboro-Blackpool is a train I'm familiar with. It is also in the ER public timetable, and is the only example I know of a public timetable summer Saturday train only advertised to run twice.

But twice only wasn't always the case. The number of dates reduced from 6 to 2 between 1960 and 1961:

1959 18/07-22/08
1960 16/07-20/08
1961 29/07 and 05/08
1962 28/07 and 04/08

1962 was the last year it was advertised in the public timetable.

Last Saturday in July was start of the Sheffield Wakes Weeks, hence the train surviving longest on the last Saturday in July and first Saturday in August.

Yes, it's an interesting one. Thank you for telling me the Sheffield wakes week dates, I wondered what was going on with this train and why it was there.

It looks like in this case, because it used to run more regularly BR just kept it in the WTT?

In case you want to see the route through East Lancs I've attached the page from the 1962 WTT, which incidentally goes along my old branch line to Blackburn and onwards.

I would hazard that if a train's in the public timetable then it ought to be in the working timetable as well.
If a train's not in the public timetable then it could still be in the working timetable, where it'd likely be marked as "not advertised", but would also be a candidate for the special traffic notice instead.

I have come across one or two not advertised trains in my WTT's too. You do though have to wonder why in one and not the other? I completely understand an STN covering something like Whitsuntide (actually by chance this bank holiday now) back in the day.

The thing is, this old C223 train from Blackburn, back in 1962 would probably have been the same as in 1959, it certainly was for Padiham in 1964, and it was listed (as not advertised) in the '59 WTT but not the '62 one? if that make sense.

 

[Taunton]

There were a few 'high peak only' summer Saturday specials came through Taunton in the 1960s, for some reason minor East Lancashire departure points, and similar from the East Midlands coalfields, seemed to be the majority. I think if they were in the WTT, even for just a few Saturdays per year, they had 1Vxx headcodes, and if not they were 1Xxx. The former would also be in the Carriage Working Notice for how the stock was provided, the latter were just expected to be somehow found "spare". I never saw LMR (in fact ex-LMS) non-corridor stock at Taunton on these, but others into the early 1960s had done so. They used to have extended stops, particularly at Bristol TM when changing locos, alongside the facilities.

 

[Magdalia]

I completely understand an STN covering something like Whitsuntide (actually by chance this bank holiday now) back in the day.

I also noticed that in 2023 Whitsun is actually the last weekend in May.

In the early 1960s the Sunday and Monday would have been very big for day excursion traffic to the seaside.

The relevant Whit Monday dates are:

1960 6 June
1961 22 May
1962 11 June
1963 3 June
1964 18 May

managing to miss the last Monday in May every year!

 

[Andy873]

There were a few 'high peak only' summer Saturday specials came through Taunton in the 1960s, for some reason minor East Lancashire departure points, and similar from the East Midlands coalfields, seemed to be the majority. I think if they were in the WTT, even for just a few Saturdays per year, they had 1Vxx headcodes, and if not they were 1Xxx. The former would also be in the Carriage Working Notice for how the stock was provided, the latter were just expected to be somehow found "spare". I never saw LMR (in fact ex-LMS) non-corridor stock at Taunton on these, but others into the early 1960s had done so. They used to have extended stops, particularly at Bristol TM when changing locos, alongside the facilities.

Thanks, more interesting facts.

Regarding the head codes, the C223 label changed to 1X05 for example, and because it's not in the 1962 WTT that would tie up. I wonder when BR changed to these new head codes (around 1960 I believe) they took the opportunity to change what train went where i.e. in which publication?

Regarding coaching stock, yes it was common for ex-LMS carriages to be used from the LM region.

I also noticed that in 2023 Whitsun is actually the last weekend in May.

In the early 1960s the Sunday and Monday would have been very big for day excursion traffic to the seaside.

The relevant Whit Monday dates are:

1960 6 June
1961 22 May
1962 11 June
1963 3 June
1964 18 May

managing to miss the last Monday in May every year!

Whit Saturday, Sunday and Monday were indeed very busy, Whit Monday 18 may 1964 saw the last stopping trains at Great Harwood but that's by the by.

Who then in BR for a particular area / division etc would decide what trains were published in STN's or WTT? some of course would be obvious.

It's a great pity more STN's didn't survive.

 

[Taunton]

Who then in BR for a particular area / division etc would decide what trains were published in STN's or WTT? some of course would be obvious.

Normally the Commercial Department (or different equivalent names from pre-nationalisation days in different areas). Often seemed to be just a handful of staff, in comparison to the operations side, but they were no mean achievers in looking at potential and actual revenue rather than costs and resources. It's a different skill (you can guess which side I'm from ).

 

[Hadrian]

Whether a train was included in the WTT, in the weekly STN or on a single sheet notice was determined by two main considerations:

a) How many times the train was planned to run

b) How far in advance it was possible to document the train

When I was involved in train planning in the early 1970s, our Regional Operating Manager's department had a rule, not always strictly adhered to, that a train had to be planned to operate for a minimum of six weeks to be included in the WTT. However, some trains which were planned to operate for more than five weeks were not included in the WTT because the details were not assembled to meet the deadline for publication.

Some adjoining Regions had subtlely different rules relating to the minimum number of weeks a train had to be planned to operate in order to be included in their WTTs. So on rare occasions specific dated trains might appear in the WTT in one Region and in the weekly STN for an adjoining Region.

 

[6Gman]

Whether a train was included in the WTT, in the weekly STN or on a single sheet notice was determined by two main considerations:

a) How many times the train was planned to run

b) How far in advance it was possible to document the train

When I was involved in train planning in the early 1970s, our Regional Operating Manager's department had a rule, not always strictly adhered to, that a train had to be planned to operate for a minimum of six weeks to be included in the WTT. However, some trains which were planned to operate for more than five weeks were not included in the WTT because the details were not assembled to meet the deadline for publication.

Some adjoining Regions had subtlely different rules relating to the minimum number of weeks a train had to be planned to operate in order to be included in their WTTs. So on rare occasions specific dated trains might appear in the WTT in one Region and in the weekly STN for an adjoining Region.

I was going to post something pretty similar based on my time in train planning from the late-70s.

Basically the issue was one of deadlines. If it hadn't been finalised by the deadline for the WTT it couldn't go in. But also worth bearing in mind that there were periodic amendments to the WTT which could be used to add, delete or amend services. So what appeared in the printed WTT book might itself have been superceded!

And trains in the WTT might never run! For example, when the Sprinters were introduced there was an issue with them operating on the Sinfin branch (Derby) - signalling interference? So the services appeared in the WTT, unit and traincrew diagrams published. And then all cancelled!

So if someone has a copy of the WTT for that period (but not the amendment book/ sheets) they might assume the trains ran. But they didn't!

P.S. And, yes, it could certainly be the case that a train might appear in the WTT of one region but by STN in another.

 

[Andy873]

It's a different skill (you can guess which side I'm from

Good one!

Whether a train was included in the WTT, in the weekly STN or on a single sheet notice was determined by two main considerations:

a) How many times the train was planned to run

b) How far in advance it was possible to document the train

I was going to post something pretty similar based on my time in train planning from the late-70s.

Basically the issue was one of deadlines. If it hadn't been finalised by the deadline for the WTT it couldn't go in. But also worth bearing in mind that there were periodic amendments to the WTT which could be used to add, delete or amend services. So what appeared in the printed WTT book might itself have been superceded!

And trains in the WTT might never run! For example, when the Sprinters were introduced there was an issue with them operating on the Sinfin branch (Derby) - signalling interference? So the services appeared in the WTT, unit and traincrew diagrams published. And then all cancelled!

So if someone has a copy of the WTT for that period (but not the amendment book/ sheets) they might assume the trains ran. But they didn't!

P.S. And, yes, it could certainly be the case that a train might appear in the WTT of one region but by STN in another.

Good points being made here, timing for publication, frequency of running, trains not actually running or amendments to the WTT's etc. All this and the fact one region might put a train in their WTT and another region in an STN.

Looks like in regards to my own research that I have been collecting only half the story - WTT's. That said, they are very interesting to look at and study. I will be getting my latest one next Monday, a summer 1964 WTT. It will be interesting to compare the train services to that of my 1962 one.

In my 1956 freight WTT there are several trains listed but in their columns it says suspended. Looks as if it was just easier to mark them as such rather than to remove them. Another example of out of date even before they have left the building!

Based on what you're all telling me is the only way to know a train actually ran would be to either ride on it, or hopefully someone has spotted it and wrote it down.

Regarding STN's, are they any good sites you know of where I could try to find any for my research? I know it's a bit like trying to find a needle in a heystack.

 

[zwk500]

In my 1956 freight WTT there are several trains listed but in their columns it says suspended. Looks as if it was just easier to mark them as such rather than to remove them. Another example of out of date even before they have left the building!

Suspended could also mean that there was an intention or expectation to bring the traffic back, but there wasn't a known date when the trains would resume before the publication deadline. It is easier to maintain a path and not use it that withdraw it and risk somebody using it for another purpose.

Based on what you're all telling me is the only way to know a train actually ran would be to either ride on it, or hopefully someone has spotted it and wrote it down.

The definitive records would be the Train Register Book from signal boxes, but few enough ever left the boxes. You would need to be fantastically lucky to find the book from the right period and a suitable box to identify a particular train. However for a long-distance excursion you have more chance, as it would have passed more boxes!
However, should you find the right book, if it's written in there it ran, and if it isn't it didn't.

 

[6Gman]

Suspended could also mean that there was an intention or expectation to bring the traffic back, but there wasn't a known date when the trains would resume before the publication deadline. It is easier to maintain a path and not use it that withdraw it and risk somebody using it for another purpose.

Another important point. Suspended services were often flows that were in abeyance for a period of time but might resume.

Having worked in short term planning (freight) for a spell I can assure readers that the WTT often bore only a passing resemblance to what happened on the day!

The WTT might have an 0638 Stanlow - Ecclesfield (MWFO) - Rowley Regis (TThO). In any particular week it might go to Ecclesfield (MThO), Rowley Regis (WSO), go to somewhere else entirely on Tuesday and not run at all on Friday ! Or countless other combinations.

 

[zwk500]

The WTT might have an 0638 Stanlow - Ecclesfield (MWFO) - Rowley Regis (TThO). In any particular week it might go to Ecclesfield (MThO), Rowley Regis (WSO), go to somewhere else entirely on Tuesday and not run at all on Friday ! Or countless other combinations.

And of course a central part of the path could be pinched for a completely different train for any number of reasons.

 

[Taunton]

Suspended could also mean that there was an intention or expectation to bring the traffic back, but there wasn't a known date when the trains would resume before the publication deadline.

"Suspended" was also an offshoot of the way that printed timetables were actually produced. There was a long period, often several weeks, between the drafts produced by the team, the printer's rep coming to call, sending it to the print plant (most commonly McCorquodales in Wolverton), setting it up, and getting the proofs back for acceptance. In the meantime ideas might change. It was easy at that stage with Letterpress technology to slip a "Suspended" print slug in the column, but not to change the whole layout of the page, which would require starting again.

Ian Allan's autobiography describes how his first job, at Southern Railway HQ in Waterloo, was all about maintaining this relationship with the printers, which of course was ideal training for his future business - the pioneer Ian Allan books were printed by McCorks as well.

 

[6Gman]

And of course a central part of the path could be pinched for a completely different train for any number of reasons.

Yes, I'd forgotten the delights of 22.40 Annesley - Didcot will start from Newstead at 22.18 and be diverted to Ironbridge !

 

[Hadrian]

Short Term Planning for freight, as outlined above, was a rather different sport from additions and amendments to the passenger service. I had the pleasure of both at different times during the 1970s. The processes were somewhat different: in degree of detailed timing of trains, extent of documentation of traincrew and motive power diagrams and so on.

 

[6Gman]

Short Term Planning for freight, as outlined above, was a rather different sport from additions and amendments to the passenger service. I had the pleasure of both at different times during the 1970s. The processes were somewhat different: in degree of detailed timing of trains, extent of documentation of traincrew and motive power diagrams and so on.

Very much so!

The number of times we issued "Saltley TC LD to Washwood Heath work 6Z32 to Eastleigh. RAO" (return as ordered).

When we actually checked timings and return arrangements they were on 11+ hours.

Curiously, they never complained - just lapped up the overtime.