Would an independent Scotland change the railway?

[TW7]

With the constant media coverage pointing out Scotland being unable to use Pound Sterling if the yes vote wins, how would this affect the tocs/focs and Network Rail???

 

[thealexweb]

Obviously the future Scottish Government will have to meet all the (massive) subsidy requirements the future Scotrail and Sleeper franchises (didn't the treasury help pay for the new Sleeper rolling stock). In addition to this I think the Scottish Government should meet all the subsidy requirements for all services north of Carlisle of Berwick-Upon-Tweed respectively. It is simply not fair if the rUK taxpayers continue subsidising services north of the border when most of the rail services in the north of England as so terrible compared to the average rail service in Scotland.

Written by someone who lives in Edinburgh and travels to the north of England frequently.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...the-border-if-scotland-votes-yes-9716639.html
Border controls would add a few minutes to a journey North...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...the-border-if-scotland-votes-yes-9716639.html
Border controls would add a few minutes to a journey North...

Do such border controls as stated currently exist between any other countries in the EC ?

 

[Monty]

With the constant media coverage pointing out Scotland being unable to use Pound Sterling if the yes vote wins, how would this affect the tocs/focs and Network Rail???

It's not that the can't use sterling, in theory they could use Monopoly money as legal tender but it's the fact that they may not be able to have a currency union. This pretty much means they will have little to no say how the currency is regulated in regards to things like interest rates. So I Imagine to begin with nothing would change.

 

[kevconnor]

Do such border controls as stated currently exist between any other countries in the EC ?

Under schengen no, all countries with the exception of UK and Eire operate a free movement area.

 

[thealexweb]

Do such border controls as stated currently exist between any other countries in the EC ?

Generally no as far as I am aware, the Eurotunnel may be an exception to that for security reasons. This does trigger another question of will Scotland be part of the EU immediately and if not how will it take to join? What happens in the meantime?

 

[rf_ioliver]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...the-border-if-scotland-votes-yes-9716639.html
Border controls would add a few minutes to a journey North...

Why would there be border guards? Scottish terrorists coming down south? Smuggling haggis in exchange for black pudding?

Regardless of a yes or no vote in the coming weeks will probably see no changes whatsoever, despite what is written in various tabloid newspapers. At worst I think the situation would be similar to that between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Of course there are going to be changes regarding who pays for what and what has control, but that'll be part of any negotiations between Scotland and the UK whether for independence or further devolution.

But that aside it appears we are entering the silly season for news regarding the referendum: Cameron is "begging" Scotland to stay, Milliband want a US-Mexico style, armed border, Farage probably wants Scotland to enter the EU, I have no idea what the Liberals want (and neither do they it seems), the Greens will be saying that an an Independent Scotland will cause further, irreversible global warming/cooling etc etc etc...

A referendum vote however is not binding and a 'yes' will just mean that the electorate have voted in favour of independence and not that Scotland *will* become independent.

t.

Ian

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Short term, not a lot will change.
The Yes documentation suggests the existing franchises will continue and Scotland will use ORR/RSSB and the NR planning process for now.
But for NR's CP6 (after 2019), and at franchise renewal, things could change a lot.
It's worth noting that the Scotrail and Sleeper franchises are being let for 10-15 years under UK rules and will not be ditched.
ICEC will also be let under the current regime, followed by TPE next year.
Maybe we will see some changes when ICWC is re-let in 2016/17, or XC in 2019.
By then Scotland will have a better idea what they want from rail, and is sensible to achieve.
Who knows, we might have a Caledonian Railway again, operating into Carlisle.
However I don't think rail is high up their list of major national issues.
Border controls and currency decisions are not in the railway's control, but the same rules will have to apply to other modes of transport.

 

[kevconnor]

A few things would need to happen.

Whilst network rail would still own the property there would inevitably be a transfer of some kind to the scottish govt of this, would guess there would also be the transfer of former British Rail property that was transferred from BRB residuary to DaFT in 2012 when BRB was wound up.

As already mentioned Scottish Govt would become responsible for franchising and subsidy. one would guess they would need to continue with franchising in the short term otherwise would be issues of cost and no guarantee another TOC may try and sneak in for an extra few trainsets from one of the leasing companies.

Agreement to cover cost of any ongoing capital projects (not too sure what there is committed to) which may be being financed from Whitehall would be subject to negotiations between London and Edinburgh.

 

[dcsprior]

Obviously the future Scottish Government will have to meet all the (massive) subsidy requirements the future Scotrail and Sleeper franchises (didn't the treasury help pay for the new Sleeper rolling stock).

I'd expect Scotland to meet the subsidy requirements for the main Scotrail franchise.

For the the sleeper however, I don't see why all the costs would be met by one country (splitting it would mean that separating out the Sleeper from the main Scotrail franchise suddenly made a lot of sense) - I'd imagine either:

• A straightforward 50:50 split
• A 50:50 split with an adjustment to account for journeys wholly within one country (e.g. Edinburgh-Fort William in the morning; Preston, Crewe or Carlisle to Watford Junction or Euston)
• A 50:50 split as far as Glasgow/Edinburgh, the service north of that specified and funded solely by Scotland

Other things to consider are

• Local cross-border services - a simple solution would be for the trains to be alternated as to who runs them between Scotrail and Northern, and funded accordingly
• Any payments direct to NR for operations north of the border - these should be funded by Scotland

In addition to this I think the Scottish Government should meet all the subsidy requirements for all services north of Carlisle of Berwick-Upon-Tweed respectively. It is simply not fair if the rUK taxpayers continue subsidising services north of the border when most of the rail services in the north of England as so terrible compared to the average rail service in Scotland.

Sounds mostly fair. My rough calculations show that >95% (ECML) and >91% (WCML) of the distance from the last station in England to Glasgow/Edinburgh is within Scotland, so I'd expect the funding to be split accordingly.

Written by someone who lives in Edinburgh and travels to the north of England frequently.

Written by someone who was born in Lancaster, lives in Edinburgh and travels to London weekly

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...the-border-if-scotland-votes-yes-9716639.html
Border controls would add a few minutes to a journey North...

The UK currently has one land border - between Northern Ireland and The Republic. It has no controls

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is the for the discussion of what impact might be felt by the railway in the event of Scottish Independence. People who wish to discuss independence more generally (for example the ease or otherwise of Scotland joining the EU) are welcome to do so in this thread. Wholly off topic posts will be deleted.

Obviously there may be some overlap (such as boarder controls) but if we can stick to posts relating to railway issues (how might border controls effect London to Scotland services for example) that would be very helpful.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Short term, not a lot will change.
The Yes documentation suggests the existing franchises will continue and Scotland will use ORR/RSSB and the NR planning process for now.
But for NR's CP6 (after 2019), and at franchise renewal, things could change a lot.
It's worth noting that the Scotrail and Sleeper franchises are being let for 10-15 years under UK rules and will not be ditched.
ICEC will also be let under the current regime, followed by TPE next year.
Maybe we will see some changes when ICWC is re-let in 2016/17, or XC in 2019.
By then Scotland will have a better idea what they want from rail, and is sensible to achieve.
Who knows, we might have a Caledonian Railway again, operating into Carlisle.
However I don't think rail is high up their list of major national issues.
Border controls and currency decisions are not in the railway's control, but the same rules will have to apply to other modes of transport.

When the franchise ends the negotiation for a continuation of the service would depend on the relative strengths of each party. Is it more valuable to Scotland or England/Wales should be asked. Would Scotland consider it an essential service and England consider it inessential or the other way round?
Possibly a return to the days when English/Welsh LNWR handed over to the Caledonian at Carlisle with the only shared asset being the coaches and fares.
It will be fascinating to see how the use of joint rUK and Scottish assets is arranged and who pays - I would certainly hope they pay their full whack bearing in mind how wealthy they will be from selling their oil.

 

[Andrewlong]

Will be interested to see how fare rises are managed in an independent Scotland.

 

[thenorthern]

I think its inevitable there will be changes if Scotland does vote yes. For the 2 (virtually 3) lines that cross the border what I can see will happen is.

East Coast/CrossCountry: London to Edinburgh would stay the same but I wouldn't be surprised if CrossCountry was cut back to Newcastle. I woulden't be surprised if the Northern locals were extended from Chathill to Berwick-upon-Tweed.

West Coast Mainline: London to Glasgow I can't see changing from its current service pattern but I wouldn't be surprised if either the Birmingham or Manchester - Scotland trains was cut to Carlisle or Lancaster or Possibly Manchester or if the Birmingham Scottish trains were re-routed through Manchester but I can't see a 3 cross border tph service being maintained.

Glasgow and South Western Line: A Scottish Government would want to maintain this line serving Carlisle as it provides people who live in Dumfries with a direct link to a nearby city. I can't see the through trains to Newcastle continuing if Scotland votes yes.

 

[Greenback]

Several posts have been deleted as Off Topic. Please keep this thread railway related.

For comments about Schengen, FTA's, currency and the finances of an independent Scotland, please use the thread in General Discussion.

Thanks

 

[Pugwash]

both West Coast and East Coast make decent profits for the DFT - could it be that an independent Scotland would introduce some competition to English franchises ?.

 

[thenorthern]

both West Coast and East Coast make decent profits for the DFT - could it be that an independent Scotland would introduce some competition to English franchises ?.

Doubt it as they would have to apply for track access rights which Network Rail and the Dft could easily say no to if there is profit to be made.

 

[Pugwash]

Doubt it as they would have to apply for track access rights which Network Rail and the Dft could easily say no to if there is profit to be made.

But could they ? ( assuming Scotland remains in the EU ) it would not be allowed for NR to prioritise the domestic supplier over what would then be competition from another EU State.

There will be certainly be some very interesting negotiations if Scotland does vote yes.

 

[anme]

Presumably European rules would apply to cross-border services (eventually and assuming both the UK and Scotland are members of the EU at the time) and they would have to be operated on a commercial basis. This has not been a success elsewhere in Europe and might well lead to long-established services being dropped.

 

[David Barrett]

I think its inevitable there will be changes if Scotland does vote yes. For the 2 (virtually 3) lines that cross the border what I can see will happen is.

East Coast/CrossCountry: London to Edinburgh would stay the same but I wouldn't be surprised if CrossCountry was cut back to Newcastle. I woulden't be surprised if the Northern locals were extended from Chathill to Berwick-upon-Tweed.

West Coast Mainline: London to Glasgow I can't see changing from its current service pattern but I wouldn't be surprised if either the Birmingham or Manchester - Scotland trains was cut to Carlisle or Lancaster or Possibly Manchester or if the Birmingham Scottish trains were re-routed through Manchester but I can't see a 3 cross border tph service being maintained.

Glasgow and South Western Line: A Scottish Government would want to maintain this line serving Carlisle as it provides people who live in Dumfries with a direct link to a nearby city. I can't see the through trains to Newcastle continuing if Scotland votes yes.

Would a yes vote and the ultimate transfer of powers from one side of a line on a map to another diminish the need for travel between the two nations so much or would a force field, a modern day Hadrian's Wall if you like, suddenly appear to frustrate communications after the event?

 

[21C101]

Given the financial situation they are likely to face in the first 20 years as they face all the extra costs of running a state while simultaneously the situation where they get more out of the UK treasury than they put in ends abruptly, a quite possible way that they may change the railway is a programme of austerity closures, as recently happened in Greece.

 

[gordonthemoron]

most Brum-Scotland services start/end in London

 

[route:oxford]

Would a yes vote and the ultimate transfer of powers from one side of a line on a map to another diminish the need for travel between the two nations so much or would a force field, a modern day Hadrian's Wall if you like, suddenly appear to frustrate communications after the event?

It is important that a sovereign state can protect her borders. If that means border controls on the railway then so be it.

Of course, if Scotland has an open-border policy then services may exit England non-stop.

As to "communications" - I haven't read anything about what happens to the +44 dialing code in Scotland post independence. I also suspect that many of us have experienced an unexpected international call charge when our mobiles have picked up a Eire mobile transmitter rather than UK when visiting Northern Ireland.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Undoubtedly though it wouldn't be an immediate priority ScotRail will be a single vertically integrated railway as the Scots will look to emulate the 30% savings that MCNulty identified in all the other European railways. The Scots have no ideological hang up on rail privitisation and will not be hang strung by having to try and make it work. Cross Border services will be "open access" in Scotland but part funded by the Scottish Government.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Given the financial situation they are likely to face in the first 20 years as they face all the extra costs of running a state while simultaneously the situation where they get more out of the UK treasury than they put in ends abruptly, a quite possible way that they may change the railway is a programme of austerity closures, as recently happened in Greece.

That Scotland does put in enough to the Treasury to run its own affairs has been done to death. We aren't Wales or Cornwall here.

It is important that a sovereign state can protect her borders. If that means border controls on the railway then so be it.

Of course, if Scotland has an open-border policy then services may exit England non-stop.

As to "communications" - I haven't read anything about what happens to the +44 dialing code in Scotland post independence. I also suspect that many of us have experienced an unexpected international call charge when our mobiles have picked up a Eire mobile transmitter rather than UK when visiting Northern Ireland.

The level of immigration that the independent Scotland would allow is more than capable of being compatible with the rUK policy. We're not going to let any old person from Sangatte in; it's the people who come to the UK to study and graduate who then are forced to leave and not contribute to society that would make up most of the 2000 extra people needed a year to keep the country working.

The United States, Canada and many Caribbean nations all share the same telephone dialling scheme and the same +1 international dialling code. After independence Scotland and the rUK will share +44 just as they do today. The EU are banning roaming fees entirely from next year so there will be no roaming fees between the two either.

 

[dcsprior]

Several posts have been deleted as Off Topic. Please keep this thread railway related.

For comments about Schengen, FTA's, currency and the finances of an independent Scotland, please use the thread in General Discussion.

The railway doesn't exist in isolation, so I don't think those things are truly off-topic.

For instance. whether we have to join Schengen:
affects whether we can be in the FTA with the rUK
affects whether we have to have passport checks on rail services
affects whether one big advantage rail has on some key routes where it competes with air (no need to turn up an hour before and wait around) disappears

 

[St Rollox]

Doubt there will any change to the railways after a YES vote.

 

[DarloRich]

Doubt there will any change to the railways after a YES vote.

The head in the sand approach typical of the yes camp I am afraid.

Travel wise there is the potential for really quite large changes dependant on how things play out, in particular how a new country will be treated by the EU or how the UK will treat a non EU Scotland. Now I don’t expect a massive border checkpoint but cross border travel could be changed. Where, for instance, will your passport/visa be checked?

There are large issues around funding and ownership of infrastructure, services and rolling stock. This will have to change fundamentally. “Scottish Rail” will have to own, maintain and pay for their own infrastructure, they will have to bear the subsidy costs of services and meet the rolling stock costs. Can they do this whilst still maintaining investment, expansion and delivering new stock?

To simply suggest no changes is staggeringly naive. How can we potentially separate conjoined infrastructure (not just Rail but services/utilities etc) into two separate countries without changes? You can’t have independence from the hated tyrannical English but expect us to carry the costs for you! Nor can you expect to leave and not be subject to the same level of border scrutiny applied to all other “foreigners”.

 

[HH]

Short term, no change. Longer term there must be some change, because there would have to be some allocation of both cost and revenue. Good news for consultants.