Would Manchester Central have much use today?

[Sad Sprinter]

Im not advocating reopen the station (explicitly), but if Man C had some how escaped closure, would there be enough traffic for it to demand its own services? Obviously it is on the Metrolink so it’s connected to Victoria and Piccadilly, and I suppose it could be used to terminate some extra trains from Euston via Warrington-but that’s stretching the imagination a bit.

 

[Ianno87]

Probably would've been like Broad Street (London) in its latter days - very run down with limited services.

We should probably be grateful for its relatively early closure for rail services - the wonderful building and roof survived.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Im not advocating reopen the station (explicitly), but if Man C had some how escaped closure, would there be enough traffic for it to demand its own services? Obviously it is on the Metrolink so it’s connected to Victoria and Piccadilly, and I suppose it could be used to terminate some extra trains from Euston via Warrington-but that’s stretching the imagination a bit.

What would have happened to the lines which are now Metrolink (i.e the Altrincham line and the East Didsbury Line)? Would they have remained open? We certainly probably would not have those lines as metrolink?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What would have happened to the lines which are now Metrolink (i.e the Altrincham line and the East Didsbury Line)? Would they have remained open? We certainly probably would not have those lines as metrolink?

I assume those would still be closed. Leaving Manchester Central with a local service to nowhere until the 2000s when perhaps traffic might pick up a bit.

 

[edwin_m]

Without drastic re-building of the Castlefield area it would only have access to the CLC Liverpool route and the Altrincham line. The CLC is constrained by the mix of fast and slow trains so Central could only have replaced the Oxford Road terminators, unless the through trains were terminated there instead to the inconvenience of all. If the line from Throstle Nest to Hazel Grove had also been kept then the Liverpool-Norwich could have had that route essentially to itself with reversal at Central, probably improving its reliability but reducing its patronage due to missing the main interchanges of Stockport and Piccadilly.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It would have been pretty obsolescent till it's new dawn as HS2 station

 

[SeanG]

I'd imagine that the Hull terminators at Piccadilly would now be routed via Victoria and into Central.
The services from North Wales would also terminate at Central.
There would also be some additional services which we do not have now, but would have been possible over the years due to the capacity at Central.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It would have been pretty obsolescent till it's new dawn as HS2 station

Was analysed as the HS2 terminus for Manchester. However it was considered to difficult to access.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd imagine that the Hull terminators at Piccadilly would now be routed via Victoria and into Central.

That would require re-opening of the ex-GC through Fallowfield. Even more of a long way round than the ex-Midland through Didsbury.

The services from North Wales would also terminate at Central.

It would have to run via Northwich and miss Warrington, also losing an important connection to the WCML.

 

[SeanG]

Is / was there no connection from the present route through Deansgate? I was assuming that there was or that one could have been built, but in hindsight there is quite a level change.

 

[30907]

Is / was there no connection from the present route through Deansgate? I was assuming that there was or that one could have been built, but in hindsight there is quite a level change.

The Warrington Central route was diverted to Deansgate when Central closed. If Central reopened, it might in theory be possible to build a connection from the Ordsall Lane direction, but as you say there is a significant height difference.

 

[edwin_m]

The line from Deansgate to Ordsall Lane passes underneath the lines out of Central so there was no access to the Chat Moss or Bolton routes.

 

[Bevan Price]

What would have happened to the lines which are now Metrolink (i.e the Altrincham line and the East Didsbury Line)? Would they have remained open? We certainly probably would not have those lines as metrolink?

There were 4 tracks between Manchester Central & Cornbrook; Metrolink uses only 2 of these. So, Manchester Central to Warrington Central via the CLC line could - in principle - be restored easily - but expensively. However, connecting to the Northwich line, or the Midland route to Matlock /Derby would be almost impossible without building new routes.
So, almost the only potential use might be for the CLC local services via Warrington Central; that would slightly reduce congestion between Oxford Road & Castlefield Jn but at the cost of worse connections with other services.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I imagine it's the usual situation with closed lines, stations etc. that it would be useful now (most city centre termini being pretty congested) if its' associated lines still existed. But for most of the intervening fifty years or so it would just have been another run-down station with few trains but making connections difficult because services are split between multiple locations.

In the case of Manchester Central, I can't see how it would be viable without at least one, and probably both, of the Great Central and the Midland routes remaining open through to it.

 

[yorksrob]

If Manchester Central and its route to the South were still available, it would relieve some of the congestion around Stockport viaduct and we could have a half hourly service on the Chester via Northwich line for example.

One of the posts above mentions the Liverpool - Norwich service. I could imagine Cheadle Heath becoming a bit of a parkway station for Stockport itself, although connnection opportunities would be lost.

Perhaps Deansgate would have become a main interchange between Central and trains on the Airport-NW axis.

Currently enjoying a 55 minute connection at Stockport, so it seems an appropriate time to ponder this question !

 

[exile]

If Manchester Central and its route to the South were still available, it would relieve some of the congestion around Stockport viaduct and we could have a half hourly service on the Chester via Northwich line for example.

One of the posts above mentions the Liverpool - Norwich service. I could imagine Cheadle Heath becoming a bit of a parkway station for Stockport itself, although connnection opportunities would be lost.

Perhaps Deansgate would have become a main interchange between Central and trains on the Airport-NW axis.

Currently enjoying a 55 minute connection at Stockport, so it seems an appropriate time to ponder this question !

Not only the congestion round Stockport, but the Deansgate-Piccadilly bottleneck too. If links were put in to the Wigan/Bolton/Earlestown lines passengers from the South could have continued their journeys without having to change stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would have happened to the lines which are now Metrolink (i.e the Altrincham line and the East Didsbury Line)? Would they have remained open? We certainly probably would not have those lines as metrolink?

Noting that this thread concerns itself with Manchester Central railway station, I am at a loss to understand the mention of what once was the former MSJ&AR Altrincham line, as surely no Altrincham service ever regularly terminated at Manchester Central.

I am old enough to have travelled upon the Manchester Central rail services that once departed from the "ramshackle" left-hand side platforms of the station.

 

[edwin_m]

Noting that this thread concerns itself with Manchester Central railway station, I am at a loss to understand the mention of what once was the former MSJ&AR Altrincham line, as surely no Altrincham service ever regularly terminated at Manchester Central.

There may have been no direct service but there was a connection (track plan in this accident report: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_OldTrafford1956.pdf - quote not relevant). So trains could have taken that route in the past, although even without Metrolink the road now passing through the area makes it difficult to see how such a connection to heavy rail standards could be provided today.

 

[yorksrob]

Noting that this thread concerns itself with Manchester Central railway station, I am at a loss to understand the mention of what once was the former MSJ&AR Altrincham line, as surely no Altrincham service ever regularly terminated at Manchester Central.

I am old enough to have travelled upon the Manchester Central rail services that once departed from the "ramshackle" left-hand side platforms of the station.

This is true. The stoppers went towards Oxford Road. What did the longer distance Chester services do ? Did they turn off towards Central somewhere ?

 

[yorksrob]

Not only the congestion round Stockport, but the Deansgate-Piccadilly bottleneck too. If links were put in to the Wigan/Bolton/Earlestown lines passengers from the South could have continued their journeys without having to change stations.

Yes, the network certainly would have been handy today.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If links were put in to the Wigan/Bolton/Earlestown lines passengers from the South could have continued their journeys without having to change stations.

How many services from the Bolton (Great Moor Street) line and the Leigh/Wigan areas actually terminated in the bay platforms of Manchester Exchange station?

 

[Bevan Price]

Noting that this thread concerns itself with Manchester Central railway station, I am at a loss to understand the mention of what once was the former MSJ&AR Altrincham line, as surely no Altrincham service ever regularly terminated at Manchester Central.

I am old enough to have travelled upon the Manchester Central rail services that once departed from the "ramshackle" left-hand side platforms of the station.

CLC trains from Manchester Central ran via Altrincham to Northwich & Chester, using a connection near Cornbrook to reach the M&SJA line. The latter had some 4 track sections, so that "fast" CLC trains could overtake the electric stopping trains. And trains on both could be seen from part of Old Trafford ground (Lancashire cricket - saw my first Class D11 4-4-0s there.)

 

[LOL The Irony]

CLC trains from Manchester Central ran via Altrincham to Northwich & Chester, using a connection near Cornbrook to reach the M&SJA line. The latter had some 4 track sections, so that "fast" CLC trains could overtake the electric stopping trains. And trains on both could be seen from part of Old Trafford ground (Lancashire cricket - saw my first Class D11 4-4-0s there.)

Did any go via Stockport back then or were they all via Stretford?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Reverting back to the title of the thread, this former railway station has most certainly been an asset to the city in its current guise, hosting political Party Conferences, Business to Business Exhibitions, sports events, etc, all of which have been most useful to the city and continue to do so.

 

[Chester1]

Reverting back to the title of the thread, this former railway station has most certainly been an asset to the city in its current guise, hosting political Party Conferences, Business to Business Exhibitions, sports events, etc, all of which have been most useful to the city and continue to do so.

There was a recent news article, that I don't have time to find now, that stated it contributed about £100m a year to Manchester's economy. If more terminating capacity is required then Oxford Road could rebuilt with platform extensions for 1 and 2, with 3 and 4 becoming terminating platforms and 6 reopened.

The answer to the thread question it would be mildly useful today at the cost of an extra half century of repairs and running costs. It was the right decision to close it and it will never be reopened. Similar to the thread on Rotherham, we should not have more stations than necessary today because the network was built by competing private companies. Manchester city centre still has a main terminal station, two primary through stations and two secondary (if you include Salford Central). They need expanding but 5 stations are more than enough.

 

[Bevan Price]

Did any go via Stockport back then or were they all via Stretford?

Stockport (Edgeley) to Altrincham was totally new from when the line was closed to conversion to Metrolink.

CLC services had used Stockport Tiviot Dale and ran via Cadishead to Warrington Central or beyond.

Historically, LNWR used to run from Stockport Edgeley via Cheadle (LNWR) to Northenden, but I think they then continued to Broadheath and the line via Lymm to Warrington Bank Quay Low Level., although it is possible that some reached Altrincham (I would need to search old timetables) - but these all ceased in WW1.

 

[Philip]

I'm surprised how people think the reopening of Central would only have marginal benefits and more so that it was the right decision to close it.

Say if Central was reopened, then the next two obvious projects within the vicinity would be the repairing of the GN Castlefield Viaduct to allow trains out of Central to use this and carry on to Cornbrook and a junction there. They would then scrap Metrolink through Chorlton and restore the South District line to heavy rail, rebuild Heaton Mersey Viaduct and double track from Cheadle Heath to Hazel Grove.

With those three projects complete, all CLC Liverpool trains could then run into Central and either terminate there or reverse out and take the restored South District line for Sheffield-East Midlands/Cleethorpes services. This would mean all Liverpool CLC traffic being removed from the Castlefield/Oxford Road corridor and giving this a massive capacity boost. It would also free up a path between Manchester and the Airport/Stockport, with the diversion of the Cleethorpes service. The scrapping of Metrolink services through south Manchester could be compensated for by running a similar shuttle service to what existed before the initial closure, with a reasonably frequent stopping service between Central and Cheadle Heath (reopened) stations.

Finally, in conjunction with Hope Valley capacity improvements, this arrangement would allow EMT to run an hourly service from St Pancras to Manchester Central at a cheaper price compared to Virgin, without the issue of revenue abstraction; since their trains wouldn't share any of the tracks that the Virgins use. It would provide a genuine alternative for getting to London from Manchester.

 

[Ianno87]

Finally, in conjunction with Hope Valley capacity improvements, this arrangement would allow EMT to run an hourly service from St Pancras to Manchester Central at a cheaper price compared to Virgin, without the issue of revenue abstraction; since their trains wouldn't share any of the tracks that the Virgins use. It would provide a genuine alternative for getting to London from Manchester.

1. Services can be revenue abstractive without sharing tracks
2. Which other MML destinations are losing out to permit Manchester services within the capacity available south of Bedford?

 

[Philip]

1. Services can be revenue abstractive without sharing tracks
2. Which other MML destinations are losing out to permit Manchester services within the capacity available south of Bedford?

I don't believe that is the case, unless the same tracks/stations are shared. It wouldn't be a problem here. On the second point, even if capacity won't allow an extra service, the existing Sheffield terminator could just be extended to Manchester via the Hope Valley.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Closing that entire section of Metrolink will have dire efects on south Manchester. The Airport will lose it's link as well.