Wrexham Central - why?

[AllWork]

With the Wrexham to Bidston line in total disarray it’s hard to think longer term but the current consultation by Wrexham Council and Transport for Wales on reconfiguring the area around Wrexham General and through to the City centre has made me wonder about what value Central is really giving?

It’s already a curtailed version of the original central which is as far away from the ‘delights’ of the city as central. One of the line’s problem is turn around times so surely losing Central is a simple solution to improving things at least a bit?

Please tell me how I’m wrong and naive!

 

[Llandudno]

They have just spent £000’s extending the platform at Wrexham Central to accommodate the (doomed?) Class 230 units…!

 

[childwallblues]

Because its nearer the city centre and well used?

 

[AllWork]

Because its nearer the city centre and well used?

it really isn’t much closer to the current town centre and the big developments (‘Wrexham gateway’) are all about making Wrexham General/the Racecourse the start of the city centre. This also includes employment sites which will draw workers from the rest of the City Centre.

This will leave Central more like ‘Island Green’ station hence my what’s the point comment.

Not sure I agree on the well used comment too - the passenger number look lower than many stops along the line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because its nearer the city centre and well used?

It's only fractionally nearer the city centre than General, and well used it is not.
The old Central was a few hundred yards further on and better sited, but only for one corner of the city.
The old station/goods yard is now a retail centre of limited appeal, and the main shopping areas have moved away from the centre anyway.
General is much handier for, among other things, the university and football ground, and the main hospital is about equidistant, ie a fair walk, from either.

There's practically no sign of the old (Cambrian) railway route beyond Central.
It ran on an elevated course right next to the parish church (the real old city centre) and out towards Ellesmere.
The viaduct and bridges have all been redeveloped, largely into an attractive green space.

 

[Cambrian359]

I have often wondered how it still exists even without the current line problems given how close it is to Wrexham general.
Ive seen the central building used as an open toilet a few times while out shopping in Wrexham.(not just no1s!)
Surely there’s an opportunity to add in resilience to the timetable by cutting back to general without any loss in passenger numbers.(and a long term saving in not maintaining it)

 

[8A Rail]

A simple solution is to close Wrexham Central altogether, Bidston train curtails at General and provide a shuttle bus from there to and from various city centre shopping points (and hospital)? Just a suggestion but look at the money saved, well that what things are about these days, rightly or wrongly! # Now runs for cover #

 

[MotCO]

One of the problems with the line is that journey times are about 60 minutes and that leaves no recovery time if you want to maintain an hourly service. One option would be to make Wrexham General a stop for trains only leaving Wrexham Central, and not in the other direction. That would save a couple of precious minutes, and if the two stations are equidistant from the town, then it should not cause too much hardship to passengers. If passengers only wanted General, they could stay on the train at Central, and alight on the way back - they would only arrive 10 minutes or so later. (An easement would possibly be required for the doubling back, but may not be needed if the train does not stop at General on the way in.)

Or you could make the service every 75 minutes.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Or alternatively you look at methods of reducing dwell times - important on a route with so many stops - to speed up the journey, so it’s less of an issue. Driver open doors maybe?

Or look at places where the line speed could be raised.

It would only take a couple of mins saving to make the service more reliable.

 

[Llandudno]

Or alternatively you look at methods of reducing dwell times - important on a route with so many stops - to speed up the journey, so it’s less of an issue. Driver open doors maybe?

Or look at places where the line speed could be raised.

It would only take a couple of mins saving to make the service more reliable.

Or you could get rid of the (doomed) Class 230 units and run the line with Class 150s like they used to thereby providing a consistent hourly service without too many issues, apart from lack of staff and when TfW send them to Cardiff to augment services for Rugby!

 

[Djgr]

Or alternatively you look at methods of reducing dwell times - important on a route with so many stops - to speed up the journey, so it’s less of an issue. Driver open doors maybe?

Or look at places where the line speed could be raised.

It would only take a couple of mins saving to make the service more reliable.

or you could revert to a number of the stops being request only

 

[AllWork]

There’s two (at least?) new stops planned for the line - Deeside Industrial Estate and I believe something near Woodside on Wirral(?).

Losing Central would seem to be a viable option - even as a temporary change until things get better and to see how people cope?

 

[Steve B]

I've been a regular, but not frequent, (ie. about once a month) user for about the last 30 years. My journey normally takes me from Wrexham General to Hawarden around 8.30am in the morning, returning from Hawarden on either the (approx) 4pm or 5pm train (although once or twice a year I travel through to Bidston). Although numbers have dropped recently (probably because of the total unpredictability of the service at present) there always seems to me to be a fair number of passengers using Wrexham Central at those times. More stay on the train to Central than those who get off at General. Making Wrexham General a non-stop in one direction inconveniences those wishing to change trains there - I would certainly miss my connection to Shrewsbury on one of the trains I regularly use if that change was made - and would be another irritant for passengers already disenchanted.

I don't know if it is still the case, but the times when I have bought a ticket from the machine at Central, it has always had "Wrexham General" printed as the starting station, so I suspect that those journeys were not included in the statistics for Central.

The suggestion of seeking to reduce dwell times at intermediate stations might not help that much. The present working timetable (info taken from RTT) generally shows a 30 sec stop at each station, so not not much flexibilty there, and I can't remember when I last stopped at a station where nobody got on or off, so making stations request stops isn't going to do much either.

Over the years I've had a variety of units working the line (first gen DMUs, classes 142, 153, 150 and now 230). The time table hasn't changed significantly in all that time, and only the 153s struggled to cope - poor adhesion on the hills when rail head conditions were bad. All the others have been able to keep to time, but not make up time. The 230s have shown that they can keep to time, so long as they work - the problem is reliability (and they are working on that) rather than suitability.

To my mind there will always be an issue whilst the present timetable exists, unless something can be done about raising the line speed, even if only along certain stretches. 30sec dwell times at intermediate stations and 3 minute turn around times at either end just doesn't work. If there is a passenger who needs assistance, or any other sort of inevitable delay, then that particular train will probably run late for the rest of the day.

I would be disappointed if Central closed and feel it would be an inconvenience for quite a few people. If it was, then the suggestion that has been made of having a bus doing a circular trip around key points in the city (particularly if it was free for train users) could be very useful, and not just for Borderlands passengers. So long as it connected sensibly with the trains - all of them.

Steve B

 

[RHolmes]

I believe something near Woodside

Woodchurch, between Upton and Heswall to benefit areas such as the Nocturum estate.

Woodside is the other side of the Wirral near the Riverside of Birkenhead (served by Hamilton Sq)

 

[driverd]

Are we at risk of coming up with a solution, which infact has no problem?

As described perfectly well by @Steve B above, the timetable has broadly been the same, and worked, for years. Current fleet issues notwithstanding, I'd argue that this is proof positive the timetable can/does work.

 

[AllWork]

Woodchurch, between Upton and Heswall to benefit areas such as the Nocturum estate.

Woodside is the other side of the Wirral near the Riverside of Birkenhead (served by Hamilton Sq)

Oops! Yes, of course.

Are we at risk of coming up with a solution, which infact has no problem?

As described perfectly well by @Steve B above, the timetable has broadly been the same, and worked, for years. Current fleet issues notwithstanding, I'd argue that this is proof positive the timetable can/does work.

The ‘old’ timetable may be theoretically possible but the new more-frequent one which would make the line less of a curio and more of a transport mechanism, maybe not?

Either way, central and General do feel like duplication (my original point) particularly when the council have such a focus on that area and linking it through to Regent St etc.

 

[Djgr]

Woodchurch, between Upton and Heswall to benefit areas such as the Nocturum estate.

Woodside is the other side of the Wirral near the Riverside of Birkenhead (served by Hamilton Sq)

To be honest Woodchurch would work best as a Park and Ride from the M53 (as well as some minor usage to the North Cheshire Trading Estate).

The road layouts are such that it would not benefit the NoctOrum estate at all, which is really within walking distance of Upton anyway.

 

[DelW]

How about the Stourbridge solution, a Parry People Mover shuttling between General and Central?

 

[Djgr]

I've been a regular, but not frequent, (ie. about once a month) user for about the last 30 years. My journey normally takes me from Wrexham General to Hawarden around 8.30am in the morning, returning from Hawarden on either the (approx) 4pm or 5pm train (although once or twice a year I travel through to Bidston). Although numbers have dropped recently (probably because of the total unpredictability of the service at present) there always seems to me to be a fair number of passengers using Wrexham Central at those times. More stay on the train to Central than those who get off at General. Making Wrexham General a non-stop in one direction inconveniences those wishing to change trains there - I would certainly miss my connection to Shrewsbury on one of the trains I regularly use if that change was made - and would be another irritant for passengers already disenchanted.

I don't know if it is still the case, but the times when I have bought a ticket from the machine at Central, it has always had "Wrexham General" printed as the starting station, so I suspect that those journeys were not included in the statistics for Central.

The suggestion of seeking to reduce dwell times at intermediate stations might not help that much. The present working timetable (info taken from RTT) generally shows a 30 sec stop at each station, so not not much flexibilty there, and I can't remember when I last stopped at a station where nobody got on or off, so making stations request stops isn't going to do much either.

Over the years I've had a variety of units working the line (first gen DMUs, classes 142, 153, 150 and now 230). The time table hasn't changed significantly in all that time, and only the 153s struggled to cope - poor adhesion on the hills when rail head conditions were bad. All the others have been able to keep to time, but not make up time. The 230s have shown that they can keep to time, so long as they work - the problem is reliability (and they are working on that) rather than suitability.

To my mind there will always be an issue whilst the present timetable exists, unless something can be done about raising the line speed, even if only along certain stretches. 30sec dwell times at intermediate stations and 3 minute turn around times at either end just doesn't work. If there is a passenger who needs assistance, or any other sort of inevitable delay, then that particular train will probably run late for the rest of the day.

I would be disappointed if Central closed and feel it would be an inconvenience for quite a few people. If it was, then the suggestion that has been made of having a bus doing a circular trip around key points in the city (particularly if it was free for train users) could be very useful, and not just for Borderlands passengers. So long as it connected sensibly with the trains - all of them.

Steve B

Of course you travel at times of day when it is least likely that there will nobody at any intermediate stops e.g. Cefn-y-Bedd.

 

[The Planner]

Or alternatively you look at methods of reducing dwell times - important on a route with so many stops - to speed up the journey, so it’s less of an issue. Driver open doors maybe?

Or look at places where the line speed could be raised.

It would only take a couple of mins saving to make the service more reliable.

Everything is on ½ minute dwells by the looks of it anyway.

or you could revert to a number of the stops being request only

That doesn't always work as you have to put performance time in at the end of the run to cover any stops, so the timetable tends to end up the same.

 

[Brissle Girl]

A couple of posters have said that the scheduled dwell times are just 30 seconds. Given that I understand the 230 doors are a lot slower than other stock, is that achievable?

 

[Bartsimho]

Also the stopping time includes braking and accelerating not just the stationary time of 30 seconds.

I mean the best way to save time to better braking and accelerating stock whether this be diesel or dare I say electric (I'd love stock which is diesel but has regenerative braking which powers motors which aid acceleration although I guess some newer stock might have this)

 

[Basil Jet]

Extending the line around the Liverpool loop would add 34 minutes to the round journey time, which is probably worse than the current timing. However, there is an abandoned platform at James Street, and if the Wrexham service was extended to there it would add 13 minutes in each direction which should make a half-hourly service with 5 diagrams reliable and efficient, and James Street is obviously walking distance from much of Liverpool centre. This would obviously require something other than a pure diesel or pure electric train.

 

[MotCO]

I mean the best way to save time to better braking and accelerating stock

Or not stop at any stations

 

[Snow1964]

it really isn’t much closer to the current town centre and the big developments (‘Wrexham gateway’) are all about making Wrexham General/the Racecourse the start of the city centre. This also includes employment sites which will draw workers from the rest of the City Centre.

This will leave Central more like ‘Island Green’ station hence my what’s the point comment.

There is now a public consultation on this (until 19th December 2023)

Have your say on proposals for Wrexham Gateway Transport Hub

Are you a Wrexham resident, business owner or visitor? Transport for Wales (TfW) is looking to transform the area around Wrexham General station into a local transport hub and members of the public are being invited to share their views.

news.tfw.wales

 

[rich.davies]

Should include Central in that. Place is an eyesore of a building now.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Even though I don't typically approve of them, I'm tempted to say the best idea would to be use the Central to General trackbed as a short section of unguided busway, which would head on through the Uni and Wrexham Maelor Hospital on a loop back through Central - then on past the bus station and the actual core town centre, up the Holt Road to a loop round the Industrial Estate.

 

[rich.davies]

Even though I don't typically approve of them, I'm tempted to say the best idea would to be use the Central to General trackbed as a short section of unguided busway, which would head on through the Uni and Wrexham Maelor Hospital on a loop back through Central - then on past the bus station and the actual core town centre, up the Holt Road to a loop round the Industrial Estate.

I think that may be a bit difficult, as there would be no way of getting the bus off the section before it gets to General. Unless they took down the Central station building for the bus to go into the carpark off the track bed?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think that may be a bit difficult, as there would be no way of getting the bus off the section before it gets to General. Unless they took down the Central station building for the bus to go into the carpark off the track bed?

The plan would require significant demolition, I think you'd need to completely rework the Island Green shopping park.

 

[rich.davies]

The plan would require significant demolition, I think you'd need to completely rework the Island Green shopping park.

Given that shop 2 units to the left/right (whichever side you stand on) are vacant, probably worth the demolition work.