Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway updates

[John R]

From what I understand the Stirling proposal, which gained ORR approval was for Grand Unon Trains headed by Ian Yeowart. I believe that this organisation (the Stirling part) has been taken over by First Group so maybe there is some delay tothe company changeover.

From a rolling stock perspective I believe there are eight 221s planned to be in the Alstom pool - ie the balance of the ex Avanti fleet after coming off lease from West Coast.

The Carmarthen initiative is separate and has not been sold to First Group. So I think my comments still stand in that procurement hasn’t moved forward in two years.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The Carmarthen initiative is separate and has not been sold to First Group. So I think my comments still stand in that procurement hasn’t moved forward in two years.

I highly doubt anybody is going to buy those paths or start up those Carmarthen services any time soon as they are/were contingent on funding and building some huge new parkway station near Swansea that I don't think is sustainable for most open access operators - even First Group would struggle because station planning, design and construction costs are completely unmanageable at the moment.

First may as well wait until the paths 'expire' and put in their own application to ORR without the obligation for a new station, and hope that they can find a way to meet the not primarily abstractive test in a different way.

 

[John R]

I highly doubt anybody is going to buy those paths or start up those Carmarthen services any time soon as they are/were contingent on funding and building some huge new parkway station near Swansea that I don't think is sustainable for most open access operators - even First Group would struggle because station planning, design and construction costs are completely unmanageable at the moment.

First may as well wait until the paths 'expire' and put in their own application to ORR without the obligation for a new station, and hope that they can find a way to meet the not primarily abstractive test in a different way.

I’m inclined to agree with you. It will go the same way as the Blackpool OA service did in due course.

And of course, GWR now (probably not a coincidence) run a more frequent service west of Swansea, which won’t have helped the business case.

 

[Zontar]

The Stirling services will be Lumo branded - Lumo is associated with it's 'green credentials' - and that is all I will say on that topic...!

You can't use 25kV electric all the way, but there are other options.....

Any idea of timescale?

 

[Bald Rick]

You can't use 25kV electric all the way, but there are other options.....

Which bits arent electrified?

 

[dan4291]

The Stirling services will be Lumo branded - Lumo is associated with it's 'green credentials' - and that is all I will say on that topic...!

You can't use 25kV electric all the way, but there are other options.....

Source for the Lumo branding for this service?

 

[Western 52]

I’m inclined to agree with you. It will go the same way as the Blackpool OA service did in due course.

And of course, GWR now (probably not a coincidence) run a more frequent service west of Swansea, which won’t have helped the business case.

And the GWR services west of Swansea are normally quiet so are more than adequate for current demand.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Which bits arent electrified?

For the purposes of this application, Crewe/Weaver Junction area and bits of the north.

I believe the Avanti additional Liverpool services also have this issue - and that is why there are proposals to use bi-modes as a temporary position.

The line is electrified, but because of woeful infrastructure and years of delay/HS2 uncertainty, there is not enough electricity being supplied to support additional electric services, however bizarre that sounds. However, batteries etc are increasingly viable.

It also doesn't factor in that a lot of planned electric freight paths actually run as diesel - so there is probably more electricity available, but because freight operators have the right to the electric, you couldn't rely on that.

 

[Bald Rick]

For the purposes of this application, Crewe/Weaver Junction area and bits of the north.

I believe the Avanti additional Liverpool services also have this issue - and that is why there are proposals to use bi-modes as a temporary position.

The line is electrified, but because of woeful infrastructure and years of delay/HS2 uncertainty, there is not enough electricity being supplied to support additional electric services, however bizarre that sounds. However, batteries etc are increasingly viable.

It also doesn't factor in that a lot of planned electric freight paths actually run as diesel - so there is probably more electricity available, but because freight operators have the right to the electric, you couldn't rely on that.

Ah. So they can use electric all the way.

 

[Wyrleybart]

For the purposes of this application, Crewe/Weaver Junction area and bits of the north.

I believe the Avanti additional Liverpool services also have this issue - and that is why there are proposals to use bi-modes as a temporary position.

The line is electrified, but because of woeful infrastructure and years of delay/HS2 uncertainty, there is not enough electricity being supplied to support additional electric services, however bizarre that sounds. However, batteries etc are increasingly viable.

It also doesn't factor in that a lot of planned electric freight paths actually run as diesel - so there is probably more electricity available, but because freight operators have the right to the electric, you couldn't rely on that.

Time that UK PLC stopped trying to keep up with the Europeans switch off all the OLE and run everything on diesel it is a humiliating disgrace to time served railway staff who have memories of how trains used to be run. Very rare you would run diesel hauled trains under the wires between Rugby and Watford and eve nthe coal from Daw Mill to Tring was electrically hauled from Nuneaton.

 

[12LDA28C]

Time that UK PLC stopped trying to keep up with the Europeans switch off all the OLE and run everything on diesel it is a humiliating disgrace to time served railway staff who have memories of how trains used to be run. Very rare you would run diesel hauled trains under the wires between Rugby and Watford and eve nthe coal from Daw Mill to Tring was electrically hauled from Nuneaton.

Not when I used to see it in the late 1980s - it was occasionally Class 20s but more usually 58s.

See attached photo...

 

[frodshamfella]

For the purposes of this application, Crewe/Weaver Junction area and bits of the north.

I believe the Avanti additional Liverpool services also have this issue - and that is why there are proposals to use bi-modes as a temporary position.

The line is electrified, but because of woeful infrastructure and years of delay/HS2 uncertainty, there is not enough electricity being supplied to support additional electric services, however bizarre that sounds. However, batteries etc are increasingly viable.

It also doesn't factor in that a lot of planned electric freight paths actually run as diesel - so there is probably more electricity available, but because freight operators have the right to the electric, you couldn't rely on that.

When you hear there just isn't enough juice to run this second Liverpool service, its does seem quite incredible .

 

[nwales58]

Time that UK PLC stopped trying to keep up with the Europeans switch off all the OLE and run everything on diesel …

Mr Baker’s ghost, I presume?

That seemed to be DfT policy for a while. De-electrify north of Newcastle for a start.

... time served railway staff who have memories of how trains used to be run. Very rare you would run diesel hauled trains under the wires between Rugby and Watford ...

whereas in the past 3 decades most journeys I have made on through trains between the north wales coast and London were diesel under the wires Crewe-Euston, apart from the dragged Pendolinos years ago.

 

[Zontar]

It's all gone very quiet, the summer 25 service start isn't going to happen.
Just seen that the majority of the directors have resigned, which explains a lot. Anyone know why?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Given the dates are all pre OA request to the ORR, I wouldn't read too much into that.

 

[Zontar]

Given the dates are all pre OA request to the ORR, I wouldn't read too much into that.

Only 2 people running the show though?!

 

[Doomotron]

I don't think there was ever a chance of the service actually starting, like the Renfe cross-channel service and x number of other open access applications.

 

[The Planner]

It's all gone very quiet, the summer 25 service start isn't going to happen.
Just seen that the majority of the directors have resigned, which explains a lot. Anyone know why?

If you do a little digging based on the address, they must have worked for SLC rail and have presumably moved on. The paths are a bit iffy anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you do a little digging based on the address, they must have worked for SLC rail and have presumably moved on. The paths are a bit iffy anyway.

And one of the directors is one of the owners of SLC.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Only 2 people running the show though?!

Not sure you can read much into that. If you look at the "histories" of the usual franchised companies you will find a number of directors resigned on the same day or soon afterwards.

Not saying this is the same of course

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's the case for a large number of companies - many of the short term directors could well be people specifically there for the start up processes - especially if they have a huge number of directorships in their histories.

I also see what looks like a nominee name company; usually these will be either a legal firm advising and assisting with the start up or a holding company.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Ian Walters runs SLC Rail. Pretty sure they have an non passenger licence already. Someone will need to make a decision on Grand Union or this, they both won't fit on the WCML.

On 7 March 2024 the Office of Rail and Road approved the Grand Union Trains trains open access application to run trains between Stirling and London Euston and this was subsequently sold to First Group.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-03/2024-03-07-grand-union-london-stirling-decision-letter.pdf

2. We have decided to approve access rights from June 2025 to June 2030 for Grand Union to operate four daily return services between London Euston and Stirling, calling at Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Crewe (contingent rights only), Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet, Greenfaulds and Larbert, with an additional positioning move service each day each way between London Euston and Preston.
3. In taking this decision we placed particular weight on the beneficial aspects of this application arising from the introduction of the first open access competition on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) and new, better rail journey opportunities for passengers, particularly between central and southern Scotland and London.

I note that as well as the application from Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway the following two applications have been made to operate open access train services on the West Coast Mainline. It is not clear if there are any paths available on the West Coast Mainline for these three open access applications and surely it is not possible for all three to be approved. The East Coast Trains Limited (Lumo) application includes more orders for new trains to be built at UK factories so this is the more attractive application for the wider economy.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/east-coast-trains-limited-s17-form-p.pdf

A new open access rail service between Rochdale and London restoring this direct link for the first time in almost a quarter of a century, that will be operated with new build battery electric trains. This fleet will be built in the UK, benefiting the economy, securing jobs and supporting the rail supply chain. The proposed service, comprising six return journeys a day, aims to restore a direct Rochdale-London link via Manchester Victoria which last ran in the year 2000. The trains will run from Rochdale to London Euston, calling at Manchester Victoria, Eccles, Newton-le-Willows and Warrington Bank Quay. The station at Eccles provides connectivity for other parts of the City of Salford, including the fast-growing MediaCity area, via the nearby interchange with Metrolink and services to Newton-leWillows will deliver greater rail connectivity for St Helens.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/virgin-management-limited-s17-form-p.pdf

This application is for the operation of four new Open Access Service Groups that will provide new high quality passenger train services between London Euston and:
Preston/Rochdale via Manchester (14 daily services Monday - Sunday);
Liverpool Lime Street (30 daily services Monday to Sunday);
Birmingham New Street (16 daily services Monday to Sunday); and,
Glasgow Central (8 daily services Monday to Sunday).

Virgin is proposing to utilise Class 22x rolling stock, with no less capability or performance characteristics than the Class 222 and capable of operating at the MU speeds being implemented on the West Coast.

 

[Chippychips]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/virgin-management-limited-s17-form-p.pdf

This application is for the operation of four new Open Access Service Groups that will provide new high quality passenger train services between London Euston and:
Preston/Rochdale via Manchester (14 daily services Monday - Sunday);
Liverpool Lime Street (30 daily services Monday to Sunday);
Birmingham New Street (16 daily services Monday to Sunday); and,
Glasgow Central (8 daily services Monday to Sunday).

Isn't this basically AWC? What's the likelihood of this application being approved?

 

[weeklycommuter]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/virgin-management-limited-s17-form-p.pdf

This application is for the operation of four new Open Access Service Groups that will provide new high quality passenger train services between London Euston and:
Preston/Rochdale via Manchester (14 daily services Monday - Sunday);
Liverpool Lime Street (30 daily services Monday to Sunday);
Birmingham New Street (16 daily services Monday to Sunday); and,
Glasgow Central (8 daily services Monday to Sunday).
Isn't this basically AWC? What's the likelihood of this application being approved?

Certainly looks like it and there is surely no way that paths can be available for all these services. The Grand Union Trains approved Stirling service and the Lumo application for services to Rochdale are the sort of service patterns that you would expect to see in an open access application. First Group is also ordering new trains to be built in the UK for their open access train services. The WSMR application has the right sort of service pattern for open access but for various reasons including availability of paths I doubt if it will go anywhere.

 

[Class 170101]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/virgin-management-limited-s17-form-p.pdf

This application is for the operation of four new Open Access Service Groups that will provide new high quality passenger train services between London Euston and:
Preston/Rochdale via Manchester (14 daily services Monday - Sunday);
Liverpool Lime Street (30 daily services Monday to Sunday);
Birmingham New Street (16 daily services Monday to Sunday); and,
Glasgow Central (8 daily services Monday to Sunday).

Isn't this basically AWC? What's the likelihood of this application being approved?

Certainly looks like it and there is surely no way that paths can be available for all these services. The Grand Union Trains approved Stirling service and the Lumo application for services to Rochdale are the sort of service patterns that you would expect to see in an open access application. First Group is also ordering new trains to be built in the UK for their open access train services. The WSMR application has the right sort of service pattern for open access but for various reasons including availability of paths I doubt if it will go anywhere.

Do the London to Birmingham, London to Liverpool and London to Glasgow / Rochdale services basically occupy the slots not currently used by Avanti? Birmingham not yet fully 3tph compared to pre covid. London to Liverpool not yet 2tph as proposed by Avanti and London to Glasgow has some currently missing slots compared to pre covid?

(Note all these a total covering both directions as per ORR calculations)

 

[A S Leib]

London to Glasgow has some currently missing slots compared to pre covid?

I thought the missing London to Glasgow slots are currently taken by Euston – West Midlands – Preston / Blackpool services, so without those spaces free between Stafford and Preston.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought the missing London to Glasgow slots are currently taken by Euston – West Midlands – Preston / Blackpool services, so without those spaces free between Stafford and Preston.

Not sure, I thought the West Midlands services weren't at full 3tph either?

 

[A S Leib]

Not sure, I thought the West Midlands services weren't at full 3tph either?

They're not; my mistake.

 

[Chester1]

I note that as well as the application from Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway the following two applications have been made to operate open access train services on the West Coast Mainline. It is not clear if there are any paths available on the West Coast Mainline for these three open access applications and surely it is not possible for all three to be approved. The East Coast Trains Limited (Lumo) application includes more orders for new trains to be built at UK factories so this is the more attractive application for the wider economy.

There are not sufficient paths. The ORR set a deadline for applications for WCML OAO applications last year to enable them to make a decision. I don't know what criteria they will be using. I am skeptical of the viability WSMR due to the markets it is serving. Virgin is taking the mick with the scale of its applications but would probably be quite happy winning half a dozen services per day. I quite like Lumo's application for Rochdale. A handful of London services for Manchester Victoria would improve connections for passengers who don't have a direct service to Piccadilly.

 

[Chippychips]

There are not sufficient paths. The ORR set a deadline for applications for WCML OAO applications last year to enable them to make a decision. I don't know what criteria they will be using. I am skeptical of the viability WSMR due to the markets it is serving. Virgin is taking the mick with the scale of its applications but would probably be quite happy winning half a dozen services per day. I quite like Lumo's application for Rochdale. A handful of London services for Manchester Victoria would improve connections for passengers who don't have a direct service to Piccadilly.

In regards to WSMR though, how much of the WCML are they planning to use?
Isn't it just that bit from Euston to Nuneaton?
after that, they head off somewhere else and end up in Wales. (If I've got this wrong, forgive me, as im still a bit of a railway noob). If they can market the economic benefit to the community effectively, then I feel they may be prioritised.

I think on WSMRs application, Network Rail said 2 of the 10 paths were fine but the other 8 required flexing of other services. But ive seen in other applications that network rail literally disputes everything, even existing TOC paths/applications.
I think WSMR might be a dark horse... Alstom would've done their homework, surely?