Wrong train,same journey.

[wicko]

Hi.

My daughter has just travelled from Goole to Rainham Kent.
On the trip from Doncaster to Kings Cross she was asked for her ticket.She had got on the wrong train,going on the same journey and was issued with 'Unpaid Fare Notice' Reason-Advance Purchase-Wrong Train and fined £97.00.
It seems a bit unfair that she got on the wrong train that was going on exactly the same route with the same company and gets fined.
Can anyone advise if it is worth an appeal or just pay it.

Thanks,
wicko.

 

[Table 52]

An Advance ticket is for a specific train and as such, is priced, often significantly cheaper than a more flexible option valid on multiple services. As such, getting the wrong train results in a higher priced ticket. I think technically she has been sold the correct more flexible ticket for the journey, rather than “fined”.

Is there a particular reason your daughter got on the wrong train, e.g. was a connecting train delayed? If there’s no good reason, then there’s no good grounds for appeal unfortunately.

 

[221129]

Hi.

My daughter has just travelled from Goole to Rainham Kent.
On the trip from Doncaster to Kings Cross she was asked for her ticket.She had got on the wrong train,going on the same journey and was issued with 'Unpaid Fare Notice' Reason-Advance Purchase-Wrong Train and fined £97.00.
It seems a bit unfair that she got on the wrong train that was going on exactly the same route with the same company and gets fined.
Can anyone advise if it is worth an appeal or just pay it.

Thanks,
wicko.

So she brought a discounted ticket marked BOOKED TRAIN ONLY, got on the wrong train and was rightfully charged. No it's not worth an appeal.

 

[Western Sunset]

Do you have details of the trains/date she used please? As mentioned above, did they run to time? If there were two trains heading for KX at Doncaster station around the same time, could there have been confusion there?

 

[wicko]

An Advance ticket is for a specific train and as such, is priced, often significantly cheaper than a more flexible option valid on multiple services. As such, getting the wrong train results in a higher priced ticket. I think technically she has been sold the correct more flexible ticket for the journey, rather than “fined”.

Is there a particular reason your daughter got on the wrong train, e.g. was a connecting train delayed? If there’s no good reason, then there’s no good grounds for appeal unfortunately.

Hi.
The reason for getting the wrong train is the ticket time had 11.19 on so she assumed that was from Goole,it appears that the 11.19 was the connection time at Doncaster.

 

[wicko]

So she brought a discounted ticket marked BOOKED TRAIN ONLY, got on the wrong train and was rightfully charged. No it's not worth an appeal.

Nothing on the tickets with BOOKED TRAIN ONLY.I think this is going to be an expensive tip.

 

[221129]

Nothing on the tickets with BOOKED TRAIN ONLY.I think this is going to be an expensive tip.

My bad, it will have said 'On specified LNER trains and Connections.' a long winded way of saying the same thing..

 

[wicko]

My bad, it will have said 'On specified LNER trains and Connections.' a long winded way of saying the same thing..

Yep it has that on them.

 

[Table 52]

Hi.
The reason for getting the wrong train is the ticket time had 11.19 on so she assumed that was from Goole,it appears that the 11.19 was the connection time at Doncaster.

Thanks for the quick reply.
At some point during the booking process, your daughter must have been shown a complete itinerary including the connecting train time from Goole and would have chosen that time as part of the process.

There’s no grounds for appeal here that I can see. You could always try writing to the train company involved with a letter pleading them for a refund, but I suspect you’ll be wasting your time.

 

[wicko]

Thanks for the quick reply.
At some point during the booking process, your daughter must have been shown a complete itinerary including the connecting train time from Goole and would have chosen that time as part of the process.

There’s no grounds for appeal here that I can see. You could always try writing to the train company involved with a letter pleading them for a refund, but I suspect you’ll be wasting your time.

Hi.
I have just checked the itinerary,all the information is there in black and white so it looks lesson learnt.My gripe now is that they happily sold her a ticket knowing that she cannot get back on the day for when the ticket was purchased as Kings Cross will be closed for works/repair.Thanks for your input.

 

[30907]

Hi.
My gripe now is that they happily sold her a ticket knowing that she cannot get back on the day for when the ticket was purchased as Kings Cross will be closed for works/repair.Thanks for your input.

Is that another Advance ticket? Or a flexible Offpeak Single?
If the former, something has gone wrong and it should not have been issued.
If the latter, it should be route ANY PERMITTED and is valid to travel from St Pancras via Sheffield among other routes. Or can be refunded.

 

[wicko]

Is that another Advance ticket? Or a flexible Offpeak Single?
If the former, something has gone wrong and it should not have been issued.
If the latter, it should be route ANY PERMITTED and is valid to travel from St Pancras via Sheffield among other routes. Or can be refunded.

Hi.
It is an Advance Single.On the ticket it has Rainham to London Terminals,normally this has Kings Cross I'm sure?.My confirmation email has
11:16 Rainham (Kent)Sat 25 Jan

Seat reservation included

12:06 London St. Pancras, but I even went to Rainham station asking for a price,they printed it off but no mention of the station closure.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi.
It is an Advance Single.On the ticket it has Rainham to London Terminals,normally this has Kings Cross I'm sure?.My confirmation email has
11:16 Rainham (Kent)Sat 25 Jan

Seat reservation included

12:06 London St. Pancras, but I even went to Rainham station asking for a price,they printed it off but no mention of the station closure.

Not sure I can work out the problem (apols if not enough info - is there another ticket for the journey north of London for example?) - she takes the train on the itinerary from Rainham Kent to London (this may or may not include the underground to get to St Pancras - usually a '+' symbol - or she uses Thameslink train maybe, then presumably takes a train from St Pancras (I assume the time is listed) - or does it say from Kings Cross? - probably to sheffield, changes there for Goole

Apols if I am making some wrong assumptions - feel free to post the full schedule for more info.

Sorry if your daughter did not understand the way train times are set out on her booking (if not a regular rail user this is possible of course) - basically if she has bought an Advance ticket (with a capital 'A' as opposed to buying a ticket in advance of the) she needs to stick to the itinerary to be on the safe side - HOWEVER - if she misses a connection due to the railway's fault (eg a late connecting train) they should allow her on the next one without any further payment. The best way to ensure this is to check with staff on the train if possible before getting on (often not practical I realise - but go and find gaurd after boarding if unsure) - this is just as easier than arguing for reclaim of any payments made later.

By the way welcome to the forum and sorry your daughter got hit for an extra payment due to what seems like an error of understanding on her part.

 

[wicko]

Not sure I can work out the problem (apols if not enough info - is there another ticket for the journey north of London for example?) - she takes the train on the itinerary from Rainham Kent to London (this may or may not include the underground to get to St Pancras - usually a '+' symbol - or she uses Thameslink train maybe, then presumably takes a train from St Pancras (I assume the time is listed) - or does it say from Kings Cross? - probably to sheffield, changes there for Goole

Apols if I am making some wrong assumptions - feel free to post the full schedule for more info.

Sorry if your daughter did not understand the way train times are set out on her booking (if not a regular rail user this is possible of course) - basically if she has bought an Advance ticket (with a capital 'A' as opposed to buying a ticket in advance of the) she needs to stick to the itinerary to be on the safe side - HOWEVER - if she misses a connection due to the railway's fault (eg a late connecting train) they should allow her on the next one without any further payment. The best way to ensure this is to check with staff on the train if possible before getting on (often not practical I realise - but go and find gaurd after boarding if unsure) - this is just as easier than arguing for reclaim of any payments made later.

By the way welcome to the forum and sorry your daughter got hit for an extra payment due to an error of understanding on her part.

Looking at this she got it wrong herself by not reading the times correctly. Still should have been told no trains for the return to London though.
Times and seats

1. Northern Rail #NT6725
   10:28 GooleFri 17 Jan
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   10:57 Doncaster
2. INTERCHANGE 22 minutes
3. London North Eastern Railway #GR1300
   11:19 Doncaster
   • 
     Seat 54, Coach E (Aisle, Forward-facing)
   13:01 London Kings Cross
4. TRANSFER 15 minutes
5. Southeastern #SE8136
   13:55 London St. Pancras
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   14:45 Rainham (Kent)
6. 7 days, 20 hours, 31 minutes
7. Southeastern #SE8316
   11:16 Rainham (Kent)Sat 25 Jan
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   12:06 London St. Pancras
8. INTERCHANGE 25 minutes
9. East Midlands Railway #EM1132
   12:31 London St. Pancras
   • 
     Seat 22A, Coach A (Aisle)
   14:41 Sheffield
10. INTERCHANGE 16 minutes
11. Northern Rail #NT3138
    14:57 Sheffield
    
    
    Seat reservation included
    
    15:43 Goole

 

[gray1404]

What was the price of the Advance ticket she had for her journey heading South? Did she have a railcard discount applied?

The unpaid fares notice was for £97.80 was it? This would be the price of a Super Off Peak Single. Was is issued between Doncaster and London Kings Cross? Which train company issued this? LNER?

It sounds like she boarded the 11.19 instead of the 11.47

I see there is a train from Goole at 10.54 arriving in Doncaster at 11.19
From Doncaster there is a service to King Cross also at 11.19 with LNER and another at 11.24 with Hull Trains. As Doncaster has minimum connection time of 7 minutes she could not have been booked on either of these. I suspect she was booked onto the 11.47 LNER service from Doncaster.

 

[wicko]

What was the price of the Advance ticket she had for her journey heading South? Did she have a railcard discount applied?

The unpaid fares notice was for £97.80 was it? This would be the price of a Super Off Peak Single. Was is issued between Doncaster and London Kings Cross? Which train company issued this? LNER?

It sounds like she boarded the 11.19 instead of the 11.47

I see there is a train from Goole at 10.54 arriving in Doncaster at 11.19
From Doncaster there is a service to King Cross also at 11.19 with LNER and another at 11.24 with Hull Trains. As Doncaster has minimum connection time of 7 minutes she could not have been booked on either of these. I suspect she was booked onto the 11.47 LNER service from Doncaster.

Yes fine was £97.80.It was issued between Doncaster and London and it was LNER.

Goole - Rainham, Standard
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£37.20 each)
Valid for Goole - London Kings Cross. Only valid on booked London North Eastern Railway services and required connecting services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/GC. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable....No railcard.

 

[221129]

Yes fine was £97.80.It was issued between Doncaster and London and it was LNER.

No one was issued a fine.. That is the correct fare for the journey actually being made.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes fine was £97.80.It was issued between Doncaster and London and it was LNER.

Goole - Rainham, Standard
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£37.20 each)
Valid for Goole - London Kings Cross. Only valid on booked London North Eastern Railway services and required connecting services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/GC. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable....No railcard.

What is the complete return itinerary please?

I think we still need to tease out whether you’ve been sold a valid return fare and routing? It’s already been suggested you may have already have a return route, it would be a shame if it was assumed incorrectly to be no use...

 

[gray1404]

If your daughter happened to be delayed on the leg on the journey between London and Kent then delay repay may be payable depending on the circumstances and length of the delay.

If you want to post you full itinerary and ticket type and routing for the journey back up North, others will advise on validity. If the intended train is no longer to run I am sure we can advise of your options and alternatives. If your daughter ends up arriving at her final destination later then previously booked then delay repay may be payable. This will depend on the length of the delay and circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

Still should have been told no trains for the return to London though

I'm confused; all trains on the return journey (including the train from Rainham to London) are currently expected to run.

The return itinerary is:

Sat 25 Jan​

11:16 Rainham (Kent)
12:06 London St. Pancras Northern Rail #NT3138

INTERCHANGE 25 minutes


12:31 London St. Pancras
Seat 22A, Coach A (Aisle)
14:41 Sheffield

INTERCHANGE 16 minutes

14:57 Sheffield
15:43 Goole
​

All these trains are currently expected to run.

Was the purchase made with the knowledge of the itinerary provided?

 

[wicko]

If your daughter happened to be delayed on the leg on the journey between London and Kent then delay repay may be payable depending on the circumstances and length of the delay.

If you want to post you full itinerary and ticket type and routing for the journey back up North, others will advise on validity. If the intended train is no longer to run I am sure we can advise of your options and alternatives. If your daughter ends up arriving at her final destination later then previously booked then delay repay may be payable. This will depend on the length of the delay and circumstances.

The return journey is :

1. Southeastern #SE8316
   11:16 Rainham (Kent)Sat 25 Jan
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   12:06 London St. Pancras
2. INTERCHANGE 25 minutes
3. East Midlands Railway #EM1132
   12:31 London St. Pancras
   • 
     Seat 22A, Coach A (Aisle)
   14:41 Sheffield
4. INTERCHANGE 16 minutes
5. Northern Rail #NT3138
   14:57 Sheffield
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   15:43 Goole

Rainham - Goole, Standard
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£9.70 each)
Valid for Rainham - London St. Pancras. In addition to the normal permitted routes, this ticket is also valid for travel on Southeastern high speed services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SA. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable.
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£31.00 each)
Valid for London St. Pancras - Sheffield. Only valid on booked East Midlands Trains services and required connecting East Midlands Trains services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/AS. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable.
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£6.30 each)
Valid for Sheffield - Goole. Only valid on booked Northern services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/NT. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable.

 

[wicko]

I'm confused; the train on the return journey to London is currently expected to run.

The return itinerary is:

Sat 25 Jan​

11:16 Rainham (Kent)
12:06 London St. Pancras Northern Rail #NT3138

INTERCHANGE 25 minutes


12:31 London St. Pancras
Seat 22A, Coach A (Aisle)
14:41 Sheffield

INTERCHANGE 16 minutes

14:57 Sheffield
15:43 Goole
​

All these trains are currently expected to run.

From LNER website:

Dates when London Kings Cross station is closed - Do Not Travel to or from London
There will be no trains running to and from London King's Cross station on the following weekends:

• Saturday 25 & Sunday 26 January 2020

She needs to go to Kings cross to cross over to St. Pancras.

 

[221129]

She needs to go to Kings cross to cross over to St. Pancras

Your daughter isn't travelling from Kings Cross. Nor does she have any reason to go there..

 

[yorkie]

From LNER website:

Dates when London Kings Cross station is closed - Do Not Travel to or from London
There will be no trains running to and from London King's Cross station on the following weekends:

• Saturday 25 & Sunday 26 January 2020

She needs to go to Kings cross to cross over to St. Pancras.

She arrives into St Pancras; and departs from St Pancras.

She will need to go down an escalator (or lift) and follow signs to platforms 1-4 and back up an escalator (or lift) within the same station.

She does not use King's Cross on the return journey.

 

[wicko]

She arrives into St Pancras; and departs from St Pancras.

She will need to go down an escalator (or lift) and follow signs to platforms 1-4 and back up an escalator (or lift) within the same station.

She does not use King's Cross on the return journey.
Agreed.

I think this is the where we are confused.We have done this trip several times and always had to go to St Pancras and the cross over to Kings Cross.

 

[Western Sunset]

I could see one of my daughters making a similar mistake.

Good luck!

 

[yorkie]

I think this is the where we are confused.We have done this trip several times and always had to go to St Pancras and the cross over to Kings Cross.

It's usually about half an hour quicker to walk to King's Cross (the overall walking distance is probably the same as walking within St Pancras) and change at Doncaster, than it is to take a train from St Pancras. ie. you can usually leave Rainham around 30 mins later in order to get to Goole at the same time.

But on this occasion that faster option wasn't available as an option due to works occurring at King's Cross. This does mean the train from St Pancras will be much busier than normal, but the booked times are as stated in the itinerary provided.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think this is the where we are confused.We have done this trip several times and always had to go to St Pancras and the cross over to Kings Cross.

OK Wicko - I see the confusion - your daughter is going to Goole via Sheffield, Sheffield trains Leave from St Pancras too.

So I guess she arrives at St P on the south eastern high speed train (arr platform 11?) - she then goes downstairs but instead of walking towards Kings Cross, walk the other way and go UPSTAIRS to the East Midlands Railways Platforms to get the Sheffield train (platforms 1-4) - have a good look at this station plan and show it her so she can see where she has to go as it may not be intuitive.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stat.../london-st-pancras-international-station-plan

The time she to change is not generous, if she has not done this before she needs to move quickly (eg sit at the northern end of the train TO london to save time would be a top tip)

St P will be extra busy - including this train, with people diverted on to it due to Kings Cross closure.

If her train into London is delayed so she can not make the connection, or it is risky, best she takes a photo of the clock on the station platform at St P when she arrives.

East Mids Railway staff would then let her on to the next train to Sheffield if she explains about any such delay. EMR staff are very reasonable about this in my experience, she should ask to speak to the Train Manager if the barrier staff are not keen to let her through.

Hope this helps, post more Q's if anything unclear.

 

[WesternLancer]

The return journey is :

1. Southeastern #SE8316
   11:16 Rainham (Kent)Sat 25 Jan
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   12:06 London St. Pancras
2. INTERCHANGE 25 minutes
3. East Midlands Railway #EM1132
   12:31 London St. Pancras
   • 
     Seat 22A, Coach A (Aisle)
   14:41 Sheffield
4. INTERCHANGE 16 minutes
5. Northern Rail #NT3138
   14:57 Sheffield
   
   
   Seat reservation included
   
   15:43 Goole

Rainham - Goole, Standard
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£9.70 each)
Valid for Rainham - London St. Pancras. In addition to the normal permitted routes, this ticket is also valid for travel on Southeastern high speed services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SA. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable.
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£31.00 each)
Valid for London St. Pancras - Sheffield. Only valid on booked East Midlands Trains services and required connecting East Midlands Trains services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/AS. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable.
1 Adult, Standard Class, Advance Single, Non-Flexible (£6.30 each)
Valid for Sheffield - Goole. Only valid on booked Northern services. Ticket restrictions available at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/NT. Break of journey not allowed. Non-refundable.

Looks like she will arrive at St Pancras on Platform 11 on the train from Rainham

and then almost certainly depart on the Sheffield Train from St Pancras platform 2
(see the planned schedule here in detail) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C64284/2020-01-25/detailed

Though of course she should double check that before actually stepping on whatever train is parked at Platform 2 in case of any changes to the planned departure platform.

 

[Belperpete]

The time she to change is not generous, if she has not done this before she needs to move quickly (eg sit at the northern end of the train TO london to save time would be a top tip)

Agreed 25 minutes interchange time doesn't allow her time to browse the shops (or perhaps even visit the loo - there can sometimes be long queues for the Ladies at StP) but it isn't so tight to be worried about. The important thing is to tell her NOT to go over to Kings Cross as she normally does, but to stay in St Pancras. She will need to go down one set of escalators to the main concourse, check the main departure board to see which platform her train to Sheffield will be leaving from, and then follow the signs to that platform, round the corner and up the separate set of escalators to the East Midlands Trains platforms. There are usually plenty of station staff wearing bright-coloured jackets standing near the main departure boards ready to help if she is not sure where to go.

Again, her ticket to Sheffield is an Advance ticket, so she should not catch an earlier train. If her train from Rainham is delayed causing her to miss the connection, then she should be allowed to catch a later train to Sheffield, but will need to explain the situation to the gateline staff at StP to get through the gates. Best to do so before they start letting everybody on.