WTT 1963 query

[jfollows]

Question:

What does limited load mean?

1. Listed is the 3:42 am from Manchester Vic to Colne going via Bolton / Blackburn, this is 1L97 MO and is a newspaper train. Limited load is mentioned here.

2. It is also mentioned for an express passenger train 1L55 from Manchester Vic at 3:55 pm SX also going this same route.

In both cases these are pulled by steam not DMUs.

Thanks,
Andy.

Andy,
I've always taken it to mean that the load of the train, in other words the number of carriages in the consist, is limited, probably in terms of weight, and probably the limit is described in another publication such as the carriage working notice or whatever.
It seems to have been applied to steam trains in the 1960s, and quite likely before then, and seemed to be applicable to relatively fast services which required their loads to be limited in order to maintain their schedules.
However, there may be a more authoritative description of the term by someone else, mine comes from inference rather than from knowledge.
Jonathan.

 

[Andy873]

It seems to have been applied to steam trains in the 1960s, and quite likely before then

Jonathan,

Yes it looks to be the case, I found two more express passenger train going to / from Liverpool Ex mentioning limited load, again both are pulled by steam.

But there are other express ones on the same route again pulled by steam where it doesn't mention the load?

Perhaps it is as you mention, to help them to stick to the timings on the WTT.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[30907]

Jonathan,

Yes it looks to be the case, I found two more express passenger train going to / from Liverpool Ex mentioning limited load, again both are pulled by steam.

But there are other express ones on the same route again pulled by steam where it doesn't mention the load?

Perhaps it is as you mention, to help them to stick to the timings on the WTT.

Thanks,
Andy.

Someone with an LMR background needs to answer this properly, as I don't recall other regions using the term without mentioning the permitted tonnage, but essentially, it allowed accelerated schedules.
Any other train was allowed to add tail traffic up to whatever the permitted load for the engine class was.

In the case of a newspaper train, it was presumably aimed at restricting the train to its booked load.

In the diesel/electric era specific timing loads replaced "limited load" etc - ISTR this came up recently.

 

[6Gman]

Someone with an LMR background needs to answer this properly, as I don't recall other regions using the term without mentioning the permitted tonnage, but essentially, it allowed accelerated schedules.
Any other train was allowed to add tail traffic up to whatever the permitted load for the engine class was.

In the case of a newspaper train, it was presumably aimed at restricting the train to its booked load.

In the diesel/electric era specific timing loads replaced "limited load" etc - ISTR this came up recently.

The LM had different timing allowances for different combinations of loco and loading.

The basic one was Full Load.

There was then Limited Load (slightly faster timings, reduced permitted load).

Then Special Limit (faster, and lower weight limit)

Finally XL (again faster, but lighter).

To give an example of Euston - Crewe the timings were 186 minutes FL, 176 minutes LL, 165 minutes SL, 155 minutes XL.

BUT for (say) a Jubilee 5XP the relevant weight limits were 495, 430, 415, 350 tons. So you traded capacity for speed.

If you wanted to get the train to Crewe in a whisker over 2 and a half hours you had to restrict to 10/11 coaches max; if you were willing to let it take just over 3 hours you could take 15!

(The timing variances and loads would be route specific so would be completely different in the area you are looking at. XL was very little used, indeed I don't think it was used at all north of Crewe.)

 

[Andy873]

Well, I never knew train loads could change according to the timings, make sense though.

I found out one more query:

In the bottom half of the attached page 2J70 running from Colne to Manchester Vic has a symbol against the "D2", it's a circle with a diagonal line running through it?

Can't see that explained anywhere in the WTT, is this symbol in a sectional appendix? if so can anyone tell me what it denotes please.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Well, I never knew train loads could change according to the timings, make sense though.

I found out one more query:

In the bottom half of the attached page 2J70 running from Colne to Manchester Vic has a symbol against the "D2", it's a circle with a diagonal line running through it?

Can't see that explained anywhere in the WTT, is this symbol in a sectional appendix? if so can anyone tell me what it denotes please.

Thanks,
Andy.

Andy,
It means that there's a note in the same column which modifies the D2, which you will see says "D3 SO; D3 Timings" which I further take to mean that the timings are for D3 units but SX the service is provided by D2 units, all a bit wonky.

Compare with the previous 2J70 1:55pm Skipton to Manchester Victoria which is D3 all the time and you can see that the timings are comparable.

 

[Andy873]

Andy,
It means that there's a note in the same column which modifies the D2, which you will see says "D3 SO; D3 Timings" which I further take to mean that the timings are for D3 units but SX the service is provided by D2 units, all a bit wonky.

Compare with the previous 2J70 1:55pm Skipton to Manchester Victoria which is D3 all the time and you can see that the timings are comparable.

Thanks Jonathan, I understand it now, just thought it might have been mentioned in a different publication, but you've cleared it up for me,

Thanks again,
Andy.

 

[Bevan Price]

WTT, London Midland Region, Central Division Sections A,B,C,D.E&F, 11 June 1956 to 16 Sept. 1956. Passenger Trains only.
Section F, Todmorden & Preston.

Westbound trains via loop line.
All trains are Class B (local passenger services) unless otherwise shown.

05:15 (G = Light engine) Rose Grove MPD - Padiham
07:00 Burnley Central - Blackburn
07:39 Burnley Cen. - Preston E.L
08:14 Todmorden - Preston (waits at Rose Grove, 08:37 to 09:07
06:40 York - Blackpool Central (Class A, express, no booked stops on loop). (SO, 7/7 to 8/9, R.Grove pass 09:14)
09:55 (SX) Great Harwood - Blackburn (Class C, e.c.s.) (to work Blackburn 10:25 to Man. Vic.)
06:55 (SO,A) Sheffield Midland - Blackpool North (no booked stops on loop) (R.Grove pass 09:41)
08:30 (SO,A) Heckmondwike Central - Blackpool Central (R.Grove pass 09:52, no stops on loop)
07:42 (SO,A) Sheffield Midland - Blackpool North (no booked stops on loop) (R.Grove pass 10:05)
08:05 (SO,A) Hull - Blackpool Central (R.Grove pass 10:38)
10:55 Colne - Blacburn(SX) or Bolton (SO)
11:00 (G, L.E. Padiham - Great Harwood (to work 12:00 to Padiham)
07:15 (SO,A) Radford - Blackpool North (R.Grove pass 11:30)
11:40 (SO,G) Colne - Lower Darwen MPD (L.E.)
13:00 (SO) Padiham - Southport Chapel St
13:15 Burnley Central - Blackburn
13:50 (SO) Colne - Blackburn
16:05 (SX, G) Rose Grove MPD - Padiham (to work parcels to Colne)
16:15 Colne - Blackburn
16:45 (SX, G) Rose Grove - Padiham) L.E., to work:
17:20 (SX, C, Parcels) Padiham - Blackburn
17:32 Rose Grove - Blackburn - Chorley
17:33 Colne - Blackburn
20:05 (SX, G) Colne - Lostock Hall MPD L.E. (Loco off 17:15 from Blackpool Cen.)
22:00 Colne - Blackburn

No Sunday services.
Getting a bit late, so will try to add Eastbound services tomorrow.

 

[Andy873]

WTT, London Midland Region, Central Division Sections A,B,C,D.E&F, 11 June 1956 to 16 Sept. 1956. Passenger Trains only.
Section F, Todmorden & Preston.

Westbound trains via loop line.

Bevan, you are a super star! thank you so much.

Please if you could find the time to post the East bound trains using the loop it would be very greatly appreciated!

One question though:

07:15 (SO,A) Radford - Blackpool North (R.Grove pass 11:30) - is it Radford or Bradford?

Thanks again for your time,
Andy.

 

[30907]

Bevan, you are a super star! thank you so much.

Please if you could find the time to post the East bound trains using the loop it would be very greatly appreciated!

One question though:

07:15 (SO,A) Radford - Blackpool North (R.Grove pass 11:30) - is it Radford or Bradford?

Radford (Nottingham) simply from the time.

 

[Bevan Price]

Bevan, you are a super star! thank you so much.

Please if you could find the time to post the East bound trains using the loop it would be very greatly appreciated!

One question though:

07:15 (SO,A) Radford - Blackpool North (R.Grove pass 11:30) - is it Radford or Bradford?

Thanks again for your time,
Andy.

Thanks for your kind comments. Here are the Eastbound trains. Note that the SO trains to/from Blackpool or Southport ran in summer only, and not always for the full period of the summer timetable.

05:35 Blackburn - Burnley Central.
06:32 Blackburn - Burnley Central
07:46 Blackburn - Colne
09:00 (G, L.E., MFO) Blackburn - Great Harwood, to work 11:00 ecs to Colne)
09:25 (ditto, TuWThO)
10:13 (G, L.E.,SO) Blackburn - Rose Grove MPD (loco off 09:20 from Man Vic)
10:15 (G, L.E., SO) Lower Darwen - Great Harwood (to work ecs to Blackburn)
10:40 (C, ECS, SX) Blackburn - Great Harwood (stock off trains from Wigan Wallgate & Liverpool Ex.)
11:15 (G, L.E., SX) Great Hatwood - Rose Grove MPD (loco of 10:40 from Blackburn)
12:00 (C, ECS, SO) Great Harwood - Padiham) (stock for service to Southport)
12:12 Blackburn - Burnley Central
12:32 (G,L.E., SO) Lower Darwen - Colne (loco for 13:50 to Blackburn
(coupled to 2 other locos between Lower Darwen & Blackburn)
13:13 Blackburn - Colne
14:10 Blackburn - Colne
15:50 (G, L.E., SO) Lower Darwen MPD - Great Harwood (for 16:30 to Blackburn)
16:27 (C. Parcels, SX) Padiham - Colne)
16:33 Blackburn - Colne
17:19 (A, SX) Midge Hall - Colne - Skipton
17:45 (SO) Blackburn - Skipton
17:25 (C,ECS,SX) Clitheroe - Blackburn - Great Harwood (stock off 15:55 from Man Vic)
18:45 )G, L.E., SX) Great Harwood - Rose Grove MPD (loco off above)
19:00 Blackburn - Colne
22:10 Blackburn - Colne
22:47 Blackburn - Rose Grove

Note that no Summer Saturday eastbound services were booked via the loop.
No Sunday service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[30907]

Note that no Summer Saturday eastbound services were booked via the loop.
No Sunday service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I presume because of the steep gradient up from Padiham to Rose Grove.

 

[Andy873]

Bevan,

Once again, thank you so much for the train times, it's like an early Christmas present for me!

I presume because of the steep gradient up from Padiham to Rose Grove.

Yes, it looks to be the case. Ever since I started reading up about the line and was made aware of the 1 in 40 climb from Padiham to Rose Grove West (1.25 miles) I wondered about it.

It seems to be the case that when we get to the 1950s onwards any trains with "weight" using the line would go west (down the 1 in 40) towards Blackburn, and any going the other way would go via Accrington. My 1956 freight WTT shows the daily coal train (for the three stations plus the power station) came down the 1 in 40 bank from Rose Grove, and nothing heavy is listed going the other way.

However, in earlier days there was usually a banking engine waiting at Padiham or one from Rose Grove MPD ready to assist trains going east up the 1 in 40 bank section.

It doesn't surprise me to see E.C.S trains either going to / from Great Harwood as there was a large 4 lane carriage shed there plus carriage sidings.

Regarding the 1963 passenger WTT, I bought it just on the off chance I might find something moving along the line, but didn't expect to see anything. Not only was I wrong it was also a lovely surprise to see it lists LE's, ECS, Newspaper & parcel trains.

It also shows a lovely mix of steam / DMU / EMU's plus a rail motor - what a lovely thing to read...

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Inversnecky]

Andy,
It means that there's a note in the same column which modifies the D2, which you will see says "D3 SO; D3 Timings" which I further take to mean that the timings are for D3 units but SX the service is provided by D2 units, all a bit wonky.

Compare with the previous 2J70 1:55pm Skipton to Manchester Victoria which is D3 all the time and you can see that the timings are comparable.

Fascinating discussion.

I understand you are saying that from this point timings are for a D3 formation, but none are given there?

 

[Gloster]

Fascinating discussion.

I understand you are saying that from this point timings are for a D3 formation, but none are given there?

If I have understood your query, the position (top, middle or bottom) of the extra note in the column is irrelevant to operations: it is just inserted somewhere there is space and where it is clear which column it refers to. If timings change, say from D2 to D3, en-route this will be made specifically clear with a note. If there is no such note, then they are unchanged throughout the column.

 

[Inversnecky]

Thanks, Gloster. That’s my query, as there aren’t any timings in the rest of that column, or any analogous D3 service on that page.

 

[Gloster]

It is just keeping the explanation of the symbol in the same column as the symbol itself. You may find them placed part way down the column with further timings below, but that is irrelevant: the explanation is just inserted where most convenient. You can find the same symbol being used more than once on the same page for different explanations, but it is only the explanation in the same column that is relevant.

 

[Inversnecky]

So how do you know when it was scheduled to arrive at Man Vic?

 

[Gloster]

So how do you know when it was scheduled to arrive at Man Vic?

You don’t need to know. Staff in the stations, signal boxes, etc. in the area covered only need to know the timings and order of the trains in their area. Staff on the trains will have all the relevant WTTs that they need and just have to look in the appropriate one. There were also small booklets for many larger stations which listed main calling points and times; guards might have similar booklets. At most smaller stations there were timetable sheets, in one design or another, posted. The number and variety of BR booklets was quite extraordinary.

 

[Inversnecky]

But I thought the point of that WTT was to give that information? This is all new to me too, I’m afraid!

 

[Gloster]

But I thought the point of that WTT was to give that information? This is all new to me too, I’m afraid!

Different staff have different needs. For example, signalmen need to know the identity of trains that pass their box, the time they pass and the order they pass in. It can be useful to have a bit of information about neighbouring boxes, but this is just as likely to be obtained by experience or ‘phone calls. Drivers and guards need to know the identity and running times of the trains they work, where they stop, places that they attach/detach/reverse/etc. at. Guards may also need to know what stations the train serves and any connections, but as these may be far away, they will be in a separate book. Station staff really only need to know the times trains call and their calling points, plus any special instructions (‘Parcels for X in front van’, something that most other staff don’t need to know). There will be books dealing with carriage marshalling and stabling, which are probably only need by a couple of station staff and local signalmen (a lot of stations may be in one book).

If all the information that everybody needed was in one book it would be unwieldy, therefore the railway divided the information up between different books.

To take the specific 2J70. Signalmen at boxes along the line need to know when it passes their box and how it fits in with other movements, but they don’t need to know when it gets to Manchester. The driver and guard need to know such details, but will have another WTT covering Manchester to tell them. Of other staff, some will need to know, but will probably have a simplifier. Others just don’t need to know.

Not everybody got WTT. Signalboxes, traincrew, station supervisors, more senior yard staff, plus management, Control, etc. got them. Your average porter on a station didn’t need one.

 

[jfollows]

So how do you know when it was scheduled to arrive at Man Vic?

It's in a different WTT, Section C specifically, see my answer at #14

 

[Andy873]

To take the specific 2J70. Signalmen at boxes along the line need to know when it passes their box and how it fits in with other movements

When I got my second WTT I asked would someone in a signal box get WTTs on the signalbox.org site.

The answer was a clear "Yes", and adding to it I was told that many of them when they had a quiet period would compile a list of trains / LE's etc which would enter their section and when.

Such a list would then tell a signal man at the box when they might be busy or have a quiet period - a handy thing to have to hand I would have thought.

Not everybody got WTT. Signalboxes, traincrew, station supervisors, more senior yard staff, plus management, Control, etc. got them

You've just answered a question I was about to ask - who got them - thanks!

BR must have spent a small fortune producing so much documentation in the pre PC world, but it does give us the opportunity to hold in our hands some of it and I find the WTT's are fascinating to read.

It's in a different WTT, Section C specifically, see my answer at #14

Yes, Jonathan explained this to me and why the arrival time at Manchester Victoria isn't shown, I still think it was an odd thing to do - but that's how they did it back then.

Once it goes out of the section covered by the WTT then it just disappears, you would need the section C WTT to see it again and it would just appear going to Manchester.

And it can get even more intriguing:

On the Preston to Todmorden part of my WTT, on Sundays two trains just appear.

One just arrives at Blackburn around 3 pm
Another one arrives at Accrington a little later.

These entries only show arrival times and nothing else apart from where they came from (both Manchester Victoria). The Blackburn one has the route covered by the Bolton / Blackburn / Hellifield route, and the Accrington one on the Manchester / Accrington route.

When you look at those routes covered later in the WTT you see more train times / details etc unlike the Preston / Todmorden route where they just appear at those stations. They are shown because the stations are also covered in the Preston / Todmorden route as well.

Andy.

 

[Gloster]

The answer was a clear "Yes", and adding to it I was told that many of them when they had a quiet period would compile a list of trains / LE's etc which would enter their section and when.

Such a list would then tell a signal man at the box when they might be busy or have a quiet period - a handy thing to have to hand I would have thought.
.

At every box I worked the WTTs would arrive, and somebody would go through them and do a simplifier. At one box I worked the job was split: I went through the timetables and wrote a rough draft, one of my mates would check it and then the lad with the clearest handwriting did the final. There was no standard pattern: some would have a large piece of card with the times pasted onto it (weekdays on one side, Saturdays and Sundays on the other, for example), others would have a ring binder or folding sheets; they were usually located so you could read them while standing at the booking desk. What information was included varied, but at minimum there would usually be time from originating station, headcode, days of running and passing time (07.30 Paddington 1B16 SX 09.55); additional information would be included where necessary, but not too much as it was a simplifier. Once the simplifier had been checked, the WTT might well end up being shoved into the cupboard until cleared out after the next WTT change.

 

[Andy873]

the WTT might well end up being shoved into the cupboard until cleared out after the next WTT change.

Thanks, and it leads me to two more questions about WTT's:

I am presuming the vast majority of out of date WTT's were shredded, ripped up and binned? the fact that some of these clearly survived means someone thought to keep hold of some of the older ones...

Also, one both of my WTT's and every one I have seen always states on the top of the front page "Private, not for publication" - were BR worried about security e.g. showing a parcels train's movement might temp someone etc?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

My first WTT was given to me by a signalman in one of the Northwich signal boxes (Sandbach Junction I think it was, I cycled there from Poynton with my friend Robert Bartindale) in about 1977, it was the previous year's CM WTT which was in a cupboard and hadn't been thrown out.

My personal Mecca was Collector's Corner in London, just across the road from the west side entrance, at the time an unfashionable part of London. They always had lots of expired WTTs, especially soon after a new timetable year, I'm guessing a major source was from an annual clear-out once the new timetables were printed. So the "Private, not for publication" meant that you couldn't get in-date ones from there, but unless there was a major timetable change (such as in 1974 on the WCML) the recently-expired ones gave you a good insight anyway.

WTTs have been available for a number of years in PDF format at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/working-timetable/, however not from December 2021. The PDF formatting is not easy on the eye in my opinion, and Web sites such as https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk are probably a better source of similar information today anyway.

But, back to your point, the old WTTs would have most likely simply been chucked away when expired, saving the exception when a greedy 16 year old got his hands on them.

 

[Andy873]

My personal Mecca was Collector's Corner in London,

Jonathan,

Thanks for the links, I will check them out.

Regarding Collector's Corner:

I'd never heard of it, but I had quite a few days out in London by catching an early train from Preston which was a treat in itself. I found a forum site post about Collector's Corner - it might bring a few memories back for you.

Collectors corner at Euston - The LNER Encyclopedia

www.lner.info

But, back to your point, the old WTTs would have most likely simply been chucked away when expired, saving the exception when a greedy 16 year old got his hands on them.

For myself, I would surely have gone there every time if I had known about it!

Didn't think BR would make available old WTT's so soon after being out of date, which again leads to yet another question - if BR weren't bothered about expired WTT's yo wonder why BR just didn't have a shop somewhere to sell WTT's and other things given that there's lots of us willing to pay a little for railway items? - or was that what Collector's Corner was?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Inversnecky]

Interesting photo in your LNER link, Andy. Not exactly ‘carry under the arm’ items on display there!

Collectors Corner, Euston. Saturday 18th December 1982.

The yard outside Collectors Corner, Euston. Saturday 18th December 1982.

www.flickr.com

 

[Andy873]

Interesting photo in your LNER link, Andy. Not exactly ‘carry under the arm’ items on display there!

Glad you liked it - thanks, not sure how I would have one of those signs home on the Inter City train back to Preston!

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Didn't think BR would make available old WTT's so soon after being out of date, which again leads to yet another question - if BR weren't bothered about expired WTT's yo wonder why BR just didn't have a shop somewhere to sell WTT's and other things given that there's lots of us willing to pay a little for railway items? - or was that what Collector's Corner was?

Hi Andy, yes, that's what it was, it was run by British Rail but I don't think it survived privatisation. Many a Saturday day trip for me in the 1970s to Euston and back, for £9 I think and a declassified first class carriage usually too.