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XC conductor shortages (August 2018)

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jamesontheroad

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Morning all. I’m just seen a bulletin advising passengers of a reduced service between Stansted and Birmingham due to a shortage of conductors.

Is this confined to any one depot, and is it just a matter of running out of conductors willing to work overtime on these sunny summer weekends?
 
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LowLevel

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They have no commitment to work Sundays full stop so any Sunday is just overtime they can refuse to come in for if they wish. Never been changed.
 

nedchester

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They have no commitment to work Sundays full stop so any Sunday is just overtime they can refuse to come in for if they wish. Never been changed.

The Rail industry as a whole needs to get this issue sorted as all TOCs want to increase Sunday services.
 

nedchester

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Far easier said than done. This has been ongoing for well over a decade on certain TOCs.

Probably because the TOCs have been putting it on the too difficult pile. As I have said before all new contracts with TOCs should have Sunday's in the working week. That would be a start.
 

dk1

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Probably because the TOCs have been putting it on the too difficult pile. As I have said before all new contracts with TOCs should have Sunday's in the working week. That would be a start.

But if it's going to have worse terms & conditions then who is going to agree to a new contract? It will get thrown out in the vote.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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But if it's going to have worse terms & conditions then who is going to agree to a new contract? It will get thrown out in the vote.
No, I think @nedchester is suggesting that all new recruits should be required to work on Sundays where required. It will take a long time, but continued new recruitment and the natural rate of staff attrition will mean that, after 5 or 10 years, considerably more staff will be required to work on Sunday.
 

dk1

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No, I think @nedchester is suggesting that all new recruits should be required to work on Sundays where required. It will take a long time, but continued new recruitment and the natural rate of staff attrition will mean that, after 5 or 10 years, considerably more staff will be required to work on Sunday.

I cannot imagine RMT agreeing to this but as a driver I can say that that two tier agreement would never be tolerated by ASLEF at my TOC.
 

PHILIPE

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Morning all. I’m just seen a bulletin advising passengers of a reduced service between Stansted and Birmingham due to a shortage of conductors.

Is this confined to any one depot, and is it just a matter of running out of conductors willing to work overtime on these sunny summer weekends?


And Cardiff to Nottingham route has a mention on NRE also
 

MichaelAMW

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I cannot imagine RMT agreeing to this but as a driver I can say that that two tier agreement would never be tolerated by ASLEF at my TOC.

I don't see why it has a lot to do with the union, as long as a contract including Sundays was basically a fair one. The TOC needs to run Sunday services so it is reasonable for it to take steps to secure this. New recruits would be offered the job on the basis that they had to work Sundays and it is their choice to accept or not. The fact that existing staff don't work Sundays on a compulsory basis is no argument that it may never change.
 

dk1

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I don't see why it has a lot to do with the union, as long as a contract including Sundays was basically a fair one. The TOC needs to run Sunday services so it is reasonable for it to take steps to secure this. New recruits would be offered the job on the basis that they had to work Sundays and it is their choice to accept or not. The fact that existing staff don't work Sundays on a compulsory basis is no argument that it may never change.

That isn't how it works. All down to traincrew/management agreements for the grade. Heaven knows what awful working conditions you'd end up with otherwise. Would be like a load of headless chickens with multiple contracts.
 

nedchester

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I cannot imagine RMT agreeing to this but as a driver I can say that that two tier agreement would never be tolerated by ASLEF at my TOC.

As I keep saying when you are employing a new recruit the unions have no legal say. That's what happens in other industries.

And yes I was talking about new recruits. It might be that a Sunday inclusive contract is 'better' (i.e. a higher basic rate) although maybe not as much as could be gained by those currently volunteering.

A 24/7 industry cannot rely on volunteers to run it's business. Imagine turning up for your holiday flight this morning only to find the planes been cancelled because the pilot hadn't volunteered to turn up.
 

nedchester

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That isn't how it works. All down to traincrew/management agreements for the grade. Heaven knows what awful working conditions you'd end up with otherwise. Would be like a load of headless chickens with multiple contracts.

In law contracts are between the individual and the employer. It is up to the individual. Of course, the unions can represent their members (including new members) and rightly so.

Multiple contracts are common in other industries.
 

dk1

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In law contracts are between the individual and the employer. It is up to the individual. Of course, the unions can represent their members (including new members) and rightly so.

Multiple contracts are common in other industries.

Not on the railway they are not.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I find it disappointing, but not surprising, to see that the rail industry seems to operate as if it were somehow exempt from, or incompatible with, the same methods and hours of working (including Sundays) which work absolutely fine in other industries where Sunday is a working day - such as retail, airlines, cruise lines, customer services, the emergency services and so on.

If the industry wants to become more customer centred then they must adopt more modern working practices, like forcing people to work on Sundays. If this means that people who've had it "good" until now - by not having to work on Sundays for example - have to be made redundant because they won't accept more realistic working hours/days, then so be it.

In my view, it is frankly unrealistic to expect not to have to work on any given day of the week if you work in an industry that operates 7 days a week. It doesn't mean that you have to work more hours a week - but it does mean you have to be more flexible about what days you might be expected to work. If I applied to work for the rail industry - or any other 7 day industry - then I would reasonably expect to work any day of the week. If that doesn't suit you, choose another industry which works 5 days a week.
 

dk1

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As I keep saying when you are employing a new recruit the unions have no legal say. That's what happens in other industries.

And yes I was talking about new recruits. It might be that a Sunday inclusive contract is 'better' (i.e. a higher basic rate) although maybe not as much as could be gained by those currently volunteering.

A 24/7 industry cannot rely on volunteers to run it's business. Imagine turning up for your holiday flight this morning only to find the planes been cancelled because the pilot hadn't volunteered to turn up.

I am afraid that is one of those things. If the then managers of the companies that ever agreed to these conditions is still with us then I should imagine they hang their heads whilst the union reps must have thought Christmas had come early.

Personally my particular employer has got it about right. We have to work our booked Sundays unless cover is available (obviously not in the middle of a fortnights leave) & those that are booked a star Sunday (meaning they are available for anything unless making themselves unavailable before the Thursday cut off point) can be n/a if they so wish. You have to have a two way street & cannot & should not have ever allowed this situation to occur as it will forever come back & bite you on the backside.

We are where we are though & cannot see this being rectified any time soon.
 

AntoniC

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New recruits into the Civil Service are employed on a 5 out of 7 days contract with the weekend included, their shifts can also be changed at two weeks notice.
They also are paid less than me , for doing the same job as me, with no chance of moving up the payscales unless they get promoted to the next grade as progression pay has been abolished.
Why does the rail industry think that it is exempt from adopting 21st Century employment practices ?
 

Mag_seven

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In a 7 day a week industry there really is no place for agreements that are a legacy of the 60's and 70's when only a skeleton service (or in many cases no service at all) was operated. The world has now moved on and its about high time the rail industry did.
 

theironroad

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I find it disappointing, but not surprising, to see that the rail industry seems to operate as if it were somehow exempt from, or incompatible with, the same methods and hours of working (including Sundays) which work absolutely fine in other industries where Sunday is a working day - such as retail, airlines, cruise lines, customer services, the emergency services and so on.

If the industry wants to become more customer centred then they must adopt more modern working practices, like forcing people to work on Sundays. If this means that people who've had it "good" until now - by not having to work on Sundays for example - have to be made redundant because they won't accept more realistic working hours/days, then so be it.

In my view, it is frankly unrealistic to expect not to have to work on any given day of the week if you work in an industry that operates 7 days a week. It doesn't mean that you have to work more hours a week - but it does mean you have to be more flexible about what days you might be expected to work. If I applied to work for the rail industry - or any other 7 day industry - then I would reasonably expect to work any day of the week. If that doesn't suit you, choose another industry which works 5 days a week.

Well if you think cancellations and delays are bad now, wait until you've made all that those drivers redundant. Redundancy law requires that the post that has been made redundant cannot be filled for a certain period, once that period has lapsed then recruit and train the new drivers. Going to be a while, but perhaps a emergency timetable of 25% of current service for a few years would be ok.

People seem to forget the strikes and outrage from junior doctors when they were asked to work more Saturdays, let alone Sundays.
 

dk1

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New recruits into the Civil Service are employed on a 5 out of 7 days contract with the weekend included, their shifts can also be changed at two weeks notice.
They also are paid less than me , for doing the same job as me, with no chance of moving up the payscales unless they get promoted to the next grade as progression pay has been abolished.
Why does the rail industry think that it is exempt from adopting 21st Century employment practices ?

I get bored of this argument about what other industries do & don't get. The railway has good working conditions & strong unions. Surely this should be something others should aspire to rather than wanting to bringing us down to those levels. That is unless it's just jealousy.
 

theking

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I really do think it's about time that the sunday thing is put to bed.

In this day I can't see how its tolerable that trains are cancelled due to a lack of staff.

The industry already has a lot of resentment from the public this would be an easy win for staff and they would get some public support back and it's not like they would do it for free, they would get compensated for it.

Btw I work for a 7 day toc.
 

Gathursty

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There must be some people in the rail industry who want to work a Sunday. Where are these people? If we don't have enough of these people who wish to work on a Sunday, then we need to recruit them. A contract that allows for working 5 days out of 7 with two 'weekend' days fixed sounds reasonable to me.
 
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Probably because the TOCs have been putting it on the too difficult pile. As I have said before all new contracts with TOCs should have Sunday's in the working week. That would be a start.

This is what has been happening at EMT for ages so there is precident.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I get bored of this argument about what other industries do & don't get. The railway has good working conditions & strong unions. Surely this should be something others should aspire to rather than wanting to bringing us down to those levels. That is unless it's just jealousy.

Serious question - what level of service (ie timetable) do you believe the railway should offer on a Sunday? I’m genuinely interested to hear from the staff-side a view on this.
 

theironroad

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There must be some people in the rail industry who want to work a Sunday. Where are these people? If we don't have enough of these people who wish to work on a Sunday, then we need to recruit them. A contract that allows for working 5 days out of 7 with two 'weekend' days fixed sounds reasonable to me.

Swr have Sundays as part of the working week for drivers and have done since about 1998.

The only way that a swr driver can not work their rostered Sunday is by mutually swapping with a driver who happens to be off on the Sunday and is happy to help a colleague out.
 

BluePenguin

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I get bored of this argument about what other industries do & don't get. The railway has good working conditions & strong unions. Surely this should be something others should aspire to rather than wanting to bringing us down to those levels. That is unless it's just jealousy.
Well you have to compare apples to apples. The argument is like for like with other jobs so still stands. The working conditions and unions might be good although the service levels on a Sunday are not, which needs to be changed. Whether that is by firing those who refuse to work on a Sunday or otherwise, passengers don't really mind so long as they get more trains.

Having less services or less branches open on a Sunday is definitely not something to "aspire" to all. Nobody is wanting to bring the railway down to any levels but bring it up into reality inline with the rest of the working world the majority of whom no longer go to church on a Sunday and work instead. Mind you, I am sure people are jealous the railway for giving Sundays off.
 
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The shortages i believe are down to a "work to rule" industrial action. XC never harmonised the guards grade and at the moment (possibly due to the derby blockade) XC are incentivising the train managers and drivers to work rest days but the senior cons on the brum-stansted and notts-cardiff get nowt. Quite why they need to incentivise RDW I'm not sure, recruitment problems perhaps, maybe they should start training their own drivers. Also why they only incentivise half their guards is very strange. New woman in charge of HR at XC at the moment. Industrial relations have nosedived there recently and the end of the franchise can't come soon enough.
 

1e10

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This is what has been happening at EMT for ages so there is precident.

It's certainly possible but currently the TOCs tip toe around the unions on this subject to avoid industrial action.

I think sooner or later the TOCs will bite the bullet and push forward with these sort of changes. The unions will call strikes but so be it, it's their members pay they'll be losing out on. Much like how many TOCs are currently refusing to budge on their positions surrounding the role of the guard and simply allowing the strikes to continue. It'll be the unions that have to compromise eventually..
 

theironroad

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Serious question - what level of service (ie timetable) do you believe the railway should offer on a Sunday? I’m genuinely interested to hear from the staff-side a view on this.

One train each way in the morning should suffice. Repeat in afternoon if not a bank holiday next day :)
 

theironroad

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Well you have to compare apples to apples. The argument is like for like with other jobs so still stands. The working conditions and unions might be good although the service levels on a Sunday are not, which needs to be changed. Whether that is by firing those who refuse to work on a Sunday or otherwise, passengers don't really mind so long as they get more trains.

Having less services or less branches open on a Sunday is definitely not something to "aspire" to all. Nobody is wanting to bring the railway down to any levels but bring it up into reality inline with the rest of the working world the majority of whom no longer go to church on a Sunday and work instead. Mind you, I am sure people are jealous the railway for giving Sundays off.

You seriously think the majority of working people in this country go to work on a Sunday?
 
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