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XP 64 coaches
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fireftrm
Member
The Pacer is a bus body on basically a coal wagon underframe not a Mk1 underframe
Ash Bridge
Established Member
Yes, but this discussion is about Leyland National body panels assembled on a mk1 loco hauled coach underframe, which was constructed and trialled on the mainline well before the pacers were even built.
(Picture by J Lewis, and not my own)
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LOL The Irony
On Moderation
That looks so out of place.
cjmillsnun
Established Member
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Asbestos is perfectly safe if it is not friable (loose fibres) or if it is encapsulated (sealed in and over). It may actually be safer to leave it in and encapsulate it rather than remove it.
EDIT: just seen it was sprayed. That would mean removing panels would be a hazard. It would be best to remove it. The cost of disposal of the coaches would be equivalent to that of removing the asbestos. So restoration would likely be an option.
colchesterken
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I was told by someone at the Bluebell that the ex BR "classroom coach" that have there was converted from an XP64
I believe the plan is to convert it to a family coach with a kids play area, silly children how could anyone get bored riding on a steam train
I believe the plan is to convert it to a family coach with a kids play area, silly children how could anyone get bored riding on a steam train
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Standards and expectations change over time. I found an accident report from as late as 1973 (West Ealing) where the inspecting officer was praising the strength of the Mk1, but only 20-odd years later they were death traps that absolutely had to be got rid of.
I remember travelling on the National-bodied Mk1 either from New Street to International or International to Coventry, must have been 1983, just before or after stopping off for a ride on the Maglev. Both projects involved someone who became my line manager some 13 years later. It certainly looked incongruous in a rake of (I think) Mk2 aircons - probably an ideal way to make sure the passengers thought it was inferior, when in fact any series production would most likely have replaced the remaining loco-hauled Mk1s. With Sprinterisation only a couple of years away there was nothing to replace.
I also travelled on the XP64 on the NYMR about the same time. Structurally it was a Mk1, but the solebar fairings and the windows made it look more like a Mk2 on a casual glance. There was a strong internal resemblence to the early production Mk2s too, but the very first Mk2 (one was at Steam in Swindon a few years back and may still be) was much more like the Mk1 internally as well as being delivered in maroon. It seems separate people were developing the structures and the interiors and they didn't meet up quite at the right time.
The XP64 stock was built at Derby Carriage Works, and was in reality Mk1-based but with experimental design features incorporated as add-ons for trial.
The prototype Mk2 was being developed and built at Swindon Works at the same time, and apparently owed much of its structural design to the Inter-city dmu designs that Swindon had already produced.. which due to the presence of under-body engines did not have the space for the underframe trussing that traditionally built carriages including Mk1s up to that time required for strength.. and so incorporated structural members within the lower bodysides of the vehicle.. so underframe and body came to be semi-integral.
So the production Mk2 builds which followed, adopted Swindon's structural innovations and body profile, whilst incorporating some of the interior design features trialled with the XP64.
With regard to the Leyland National body on a Mk1 underframe prototype of almost 2 decades later, I'm pretty sure photos can be found online of the 2nd Mk1 underframe having been delivered to a siding within the Leyland Works in Leyland (even though Leyland Nationals were produced at Workington).
In terms of structural integrity of a Leyland National-derived body on top of a conventional underframe... What happened when an electric loco ran into a stationary ecs 142 pacer?
(Note.. Pacers are what they, a bus-derived body assembled onto a conventional, freight-derived underframe of the era... but to misrepresent them as bus bodies on coal wagon underframes, or whatever was said upthread, probably isn't strictly necessary)
The prototype Mk2 was being developed and built at Swindon Works at the same time, and apparently owed much of its structural design to the Inter-city dmu designs that Swindon had already produced.. which due to the presence of under-body engines did not have the space for the underframe trussing that traditionally built carriages including Mk1s up to that time required for strength.. and so incorporated structural members within the lower bodysides of the vehicle.. so underframe and body came to be semi-integral.
So the production Mk2 builds which followed, adopted Swindon's structural innovations and body profile, whilst incorporating some of the interior design features trialled with the XP64.
With regard to the Leyland National body on a Mk1 underframe prototype of almost 2 decades later, I'm pretty sure photos can be found online of the 2nd Mk1 underframe having been delivered to a siding within the Leyland Works in Leyland (even though Leyland Nationals were produced at Workington).
In terms of structural integrity of a Leyland National-derived body on top of a conventional underframe... What happened when an electric loco ran into a stationary ecs 142 pacer?
(Note.. Pacers are what they, a bus-derived body assembled onto a conventional, freight-derived underframe of the era... but to misrepresent them as bus bodies on coal wagon underframes, or whatever was said upthread, probably isn't strictly necessary)
I believe also that the prototype Mk2 vehicle, FK 13252, ended its BR days, like the XP64 stock, on WR secondary services around the Wessex/West of England/S.Wales area, so presumably/probably working alongside the XP64 stock at this time? And apparently withdrawn around the same time too.
The VCT register informs us that W13252 was claimed by the National Collection (NRM) for preservation in 1982 due to its historical significance, initially at York, then also at Swindon... but subsequently disposed of.. and now owned by the Mid-Norfolk Railway.. where it seems that asbestos content has also proved to be an issue... although restoration is said to have been completed between 2009 and 2011 and the vehicle is now not considered to be "at risk" (in contrast to the last pair(?) of XP64).
In terms of asbestos content, this was certainly an issue for the Swindon Inter-city dmu vehicles (developmental precursors to the Mk2 prototype) in the care of the SRPS (Brechin? Boness?), and it took a substantial Heritage Lottery Fund grant for restoration to be undertaken, and for asbestos and corrosion to be dealt with.
There is a very detailed and informative account on one of the SRPS pages relating to the restoration of the class 126 Swindon Inter-city dmu vehicles (sorry can't post link on this phone but it's worth seeking out, try class126.co.uk), that describes how structural box sections were incorporated into the design of the stressed-skin body sides to enable underframe trussing to be dispensed with.. such that the coach body became integral to the chassis and to the structural strength of the vehicle (unlike with traditional carriage building up to then, including the Mk1s, ie hefty underframes with a substantially lighter framed body fabricated on top)...
And that the same design principles and semi-integral methods were carried through into the Mk2 prototype.. which was actually built on the same jigs as the Swindon Inter-city (and Cross-country) dmus.
So asbestos content does not need to be the literal death-knell for preserved coaching stock if its historical significance can be recognised and acknowledged.. and the money and the will can be found...
The VCT register informs us that W13252 was claimed by the National Collection (NRM) for preservation in 1982 due to its historical significance, initially at York, then also at Swindon... but subsequently disposed of.. and now owned by the Mid-Norfolk Railway.. where it seems that asbestos content has also proved to be an issue... although restoration is said to have been completed between 2009 and 2011 and the vehicle is now not considered to be "at risk" (in contrast to the last pair(?) of XP64).
In terms of asbestos content, this was certainly an issue for the Swindon Inter-city dmu vehicles (developmental precursors to the Mk2 prototype) in the care of the SRPS (Brechin? Boness?), and it took a substantial Heritage Lottery Fund grant for restoration to be undertaken, and for asbestos and corrosion to be dealt with.
There is a very detailed and informative account on one of the SRPS pages relating to the restoration of the class 126 Swindon Inter-city dmu vehicles (sorry can't post link on this phone but it's worth seeking out, try class126.co.uk), that describes how structural box sections were incorporated into the design of the stressed-skin body sides to enable underframe trussing to be dispensed with.. such that the coach body became integral to the chassis and to the structural strength of the vehicle (unlike with traditional carriage building up to then, including the Mk1s, ie hefty underframes with a substantially lighter framed body fabricated on top)...
And that the same design principles and semi-integral methods were carried through into the Mk2 prototype.. which was actually built on the same jigs as the Swindon Inter-city (and Cross-country) dmus.
So asbestos content does not need to be the literal death-knell for preserved coaching stock if its historical significance can be recognised and acknowledged.. and the money and the will can be found...
And if we're talking about other intriguing comparable/comparative experimental builds/prototypes.. how about the 1957 build of 12 experimental Mk1 prototypes built by Doncaster, Cravens, BRCW, Gloucester RCW, and another (Pressed Steel?)..?
These included FOs numbered 3081-4.. one of which, Doncaster-built 3083, survives at the SVR, described as having "reclining and rotating seats" (though from online pics it's difficult to see how they could rotate, sorry can't post links on this phone).
Also the fibreglass-bodied Mk1 built at Eastleigh in 1962, which apparently still exists on the East Somerset Railway..?
These included FOs numbered 3081-4.. one of which, Doncaster-built 3083, survives at the SVR, described as having "reclining and rotating seats" (though from online pics it's difficult to see how they could rotate, sorry can't post links on this phone).
Also the fibreglass-bodied Mk1 built at Eastleigh in 1962, which apparently still exists on the East Somerset Railway..?
Ash Bridge
Established Member
On my first ever visit to the Severn Valley W3083 was one of the first things I photographed there, here it is at Bridgnorth probably not so long out of mainline service at that point (1974) the second picture from the 1990 or 91 diesel gala I managed to travel the full line onboard her, like you say those rotating/ reclining seats are really comfortable! I'd bet even forum member Neil Williams would be extremely happy with those
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
On my first ever visit to the Severn Valley W3083 was one of the first things I photographed there, here it is at Bridgenorth probably not so long out of mainline service at that point (1974) the second picture from the 1990 or 91 diesel gala I managed to travel the full line onboard her, like you say those rotating/ reclining seats are really comfortable! I'd bet even forum member Neil Williams would be extremely happy with those
Not seen that one before...it reminds me of the German coaches with the small windows and rotatable 1st seats.
Ash Bridge
Established Member
Not seen that one before...it reminds me of the German coaches with the small windows and rotatable 1st seats.
Yes it does make for a rather dated external appearance wouldn't you say, totally unlike this other Mk1 prototype from Cravens which I think looks well ahead of its time for 1957,
Pictures credited to 1)NRM. 2)BR.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The vertically separated windows makes that one look quite American.
Great photos Mr Bridge. Especially the one of 3083 in blue and grey.
It’s good to see that some of these rarities have survived.
(I’ve put your name up for the board of the XP64 restoration committee by the way. A bit slow on the uptake so far but I’m optimistic...)
It’s good to see that some of these rarities have survived.
(I’ve put your name up for the board of the XP64 restoration committee by the way. A bit slow on the uptake so far but I’m optimistic...)
Ash Bridge
Established Member
....I'll be nipping down to Wickes in the morning then to see if they stock any suitable asbestos protection suits for my (our) forthcoming project, if we put our backs into it we should easily have the first one ready for an early summer return to service don't you think?
Glenmutchkin
Member
The 126 set is at Bo'ness and there is currently a driver training program under way that will hopefully see the set getting regular outings over the coming running season.
The link mentioned above is
https://www.class126.co.uk/society/
With my trade card and paint matching skills, and your first hand experience of the actual carriages what could possibly go wrong?....I'll be nipping down to Wickes in the morning then to see if they stock any suitable asbestos protection suits for my (our) forthcoming project, if we put our backs into it we should easily have the first one ready for an early summer return to service don't you think?
I’ve followed the progress of the 126 a bit over the years and it’s been an amazing achievement, well done all involved with it.
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GusB
Established Member
Thanks for the link - I wasn't aware that class126.co.uk existed - that will give me some bed-time reading for tonight. I don't remember ever seeing these, but having had a trip to Millport and being dragged by my Gran to a day out at Butlin's in Ayr, I may well have travelled on them without being aware of it. I think I vaguely recall the similar-looking 120s on the Inverness - Aberdeen.
On my first ever visit to the Severn Valley W3083 was one of the first things I photographed there, here it is at Bridgnorth probably not so long out of mainline service at that point (1974) the second picture from the 1990 or 91 diesel gala I managed to travel the full line onboard her, like you say those rotating/ reclining seats are really comfortable! I'd bet even forum member Neil Williams would be extremely happy with those
Those seats do indeed look very comfy. (Why does it always come back to the bloody seats?!!) What were they thinking (or smoking) when they came up with that orange, though?
When I saw your thumbnail images it looked at first glance to be an air-con Mk2, just with irregular window-spacing. If the underfloor gubbins had been boxed in a-la-Mk3, these would have looked very sleek.
Regarding that orange moquette in W3083... I seem to recall encountering that in declassified 1st saloons in 1st generation dmus in the early 1980s..? So presumably was a standard issue BR moquette for at least certain applications of 1st class seating of the period (early 70s?, late 60s?)..
More recent shots of 3083's interior show the seats now with a blue moquette..
More recent shots of 3083's interior show the seats now with a blue moquette..
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
If it's this colour, I took this picture in a Mk2 at Paddington on 20th March 1982. I am pretty sure the Mk3s had this scheme in their first class as well, when originally built.
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GusB
Established Member
I definitely remember that orange on Mk2s. When we used the Clansman on a fairly regular basis for family holidays, there would usually be a few trips to the buffet car, beyond which were the mysterious coaches with orange seats. I was Not Allowed to venture into that realm.
Different cloth. Seem to recall that one as being a flat-weave cloth... Whereas the moquette referred to earlier was a combination cut-pile and uncut-pile in a checquer-board type pattern (of a type once produced by the many years defunct British Furtex company, I believe from memory).
Ash Bridge
Established Member
I definitely agree on your point about about that 1957 Cravens vehicle, just so ahead of its time in terms of styling both internally and externally, when you consider that BR would still be operating steam hauled express services for several more years to come perhaps they considered this design would look rather out of place and somewhat incongruous behind (by that time) out of favour steam traction?
I must admit I wondered about that moquette when I first saw it back in 1990, do you think it may have actually been retrimed whilst under SVR ownership considering by that time the vehicle had been at the railway for approximately 17 years? Just been studying my slide above and I appreciate the resolution is rather soft but when zooming in the trim appears to be a darker green or blue colour.[/QUOTE]
That must be one of the final build mk2f,as you say they were fitted with the mk3 seats and trimmed with the same materials as the mk3s, odd to think that these mk2 vehicles were up to 3 years younger than the mk3 prototype coaches which dated from 1972.
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100andthirty
Member
Pedantic point, but the orange cloth in the photo was a flat cloth, not a moquette. It was certainly used on the mk3 HST sets when they were new.
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