Yeovil-Manchester football special route 1949?

[randyrippley]

On Saturday, 12th February, 1949, six special trains took 3,000 Yeovil supporters to Manchester for a fifth round FA Cup tie against Man Utd at Maine Road (Old Trafford was still bomb damaged).
Presumably they departed from Yeovil Town station or maybe were split between Town & Pen Mill, but does anyone have any idea what route would have been used? Or would six trains have had to be sent over different routes? And which terminus would have been used at Manchester?
Any thoughts as to what locos were likely to be used where?

 

[Gloster]

At a guess, I would say via Bruton and Freshford to Bristol, round Dr Days curve, through the hole and the Maindee curve, and up the North & West to Chester. Then to Manchester Central, most likely via Mouldsworth and Knutsford, but possibly via Warrington and Latchford, or Newton-le-Willows and Astley. It was fairly common practice then to get supporters in the earliest trains to the destination in good time if it was convenient to the railway: they then made their way to the ground, no corralling like today.

EDIT: Correction. It probably wouldn’t have gone via Mouldsworth and Knutsford as the facing connection at Mickle Trafford from Chester General wasn’t put in until 1969.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

On the way back, one of the six special trains would certainly seem to have been routed via or near to Gloucester station, as there is a newspaper account on the following Monday in the "Daily Herald" of a bullet crashing through a supporters' train window, passing close to the face of one of the players' wives, this whilst the train was passing near to Gloucester (!)

Apparently 6,000 Yeovil supporters travelled up to the game, half by train, this out of a crowd of 81,545, on the special trains which left overnight from Yeovil (not sure which station) as early as 11.20 p.m. the night before.

The destination station in Manchester might possibly have been Mayfield. According to an advertisement in the "Bristol Evening Post" on the Tuesday before the match... "These excursions are strictly limited and passengers must travel in both directions by the train bearing the same as shown on the tickets in red ink".

United won the tie 8-0.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

If chartered from the Southern Region probably via Templecombe, Bath Green Park, B'ham - old habits die hard.

 

[6Gman]

They may, of course, have been split - some from Pen Mill then via Bristol & Hereford; some from Junction via S&D and Birmingham.

The reference to Gloucester suggests at least one via the S&D/MR option.

 

[Snow1964]

If chartered from the Southern Region probably via Templecombe, Bath Green Park, B'ham - old habits die hard.

In 1949 could still go :
via Castle Cary, Frome, Radstock, Midsomer Norton to Bristol
via Castle Cary, Wells, Axbridge, Yatton, Bristol etc
Via Martock, Athelney, Bridgewater, Yatton, Bristol etc

and of course old GWR route via Westbury, Melksham, Swindon, Oxford, Wolverhampton etc

Thinking about it, in 1949 would have been staff around that during the war would have known routes through Cirencester and Cotswolds too, was probably 20+ possible routes without doing a reversal.

 

[Gloster]

In 1949 could still go :
via Castle Cary, Frome, Radstock, Midsomer Norton to Bristol
via Castle Cary, Wells, Axbridge, Yatton, Bristol etc
Via Martock, Athelney, Bridgewater, Yatton, Bristol etc

and of course old GWR route via Westbury, Melksham, Swindon, Oxford, Wolverhampton etc

Thinking about it, in 1949 would have been staff around that during the war would have known routes through Cirencester and Cotswolds too, was probably 20+ possible routes without doing a reversal.

I doubt if they would have taken either the Radstock or Wells routes unless they were picking up on them, but I suspect that these lines were beyond the normal area that Yeovil drew support from. Martock is possible, but I would think that via Doctor Day’s at Bristol and the North & West was the main route, with possibly one or two going via Oxford. The odd train might start at somewhere like Chard Junction and go over the S&D. It was less than two years after nationalisation and, as said, old habits diehard: the North & West was the traditional route between north of Crewe and south of Bristol.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One other observation. The destination for the 5th round tie being Manchester wasn't decided until the Monday before the game, it could possibly have been Bradford (Yorkshire) instead, with Manchester United needing to beat Bradford City in a 4th round 2nd replay on Monday 7th February 1949. The supporters' trains and coaches up from Yeovil for the following weekend's tie, had, however, already been arranged on an either/or basis.

 

[Bevan Price]

I suspect that Manchester London Road (as it was then) or Mayfield are the most likely Manchester area destinations, running from Crewe via either Styal or Stockport. Fallowfield was the nearest station to Maine Road (about 1 mile walk), but that would have needed a reversal (probably at London Road). Central probably did not have nearby siding capacity to accept all six specials.

At least one, possibly two loco changes en route would also be required.

Too many possible combinations of route to list all possibilities, but anything passing through Gloucester possibly went via Chelthenham Spa, Stratford upon Avon, Birmingham Snow Hill, and then either Wellington or Shrewsbury to Crewe.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I suspect that Manchester London Road (as it was then) or Mayfield are the most likely Manchester area destinations...

Manchester Mayfield was definitely the destination for af least one of the specials. So, how many trains could have been simultaneously accommodated there back in Feb 1949? Maybe four of the six Yeovil supporter specials?

 

[Gloster]

One other observation. The destination for the 5th round tie being Manchester wasn't decided until the Monday before the game, it could possibly have been Bradford (Yorkshire) instead, with Manchester United needing to beat Bradford City in a 4th round 2nd replay on Monday 7th February 1949. The supporters' trains and coaches up from Yeovil for the following weekend's tie, had, however, already been arranged on an either/or basis.

I would presume that two sets of timings had been prepared and late on Monday night instructions would go out to the loco sheds that would have to provide the motive-power and crew. The provision of locos, coaching stock and crews at the start of the trips was probably little changed.

 

[Bevan Price]

Manchester Mayfield was definitely the destination for af least one of the specials. So, how many trains could have been simultaneously accommodated there back in Feb 1949? Maybe four of the six Yeovil supporter specials?

I think it had 4 platforms long enough to accommodate excursions, but they would have done some shunting to release the incoming locos for servicing (probably at Longsight). A lot would depend on the timings of the specials - maybe 2 trains per hour could have been handled comfortably, and parking stock from the last two specials in the platforms.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

About a two mile walk in the rain from Manchester Mayfield station to the Maine Road ground, although a fair chance that shuttle buses would have been laid on.

 

[randyrippley]

Thanks for this, I had a feeling the answer wouldn't be straightforward......

It does raise another thought: how would a project like this have been resourced? Would it have been from whatever odd locos and coaches were available locally spare from the two Yeovil sheds? Or would express locos and mainline stock have been drafted in for the job?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The traditional starting point for 'MATCH' buses to Maine Road (and Old Trafford) was in Aytoun Street, so close to London Rd / Mayfield.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks for this, I had a feeling the answer wouldn't be straightforward......

It does raise another thought: how would a project like this have been resourced? Would it have been from whatever odd locos and coaches were available locally spare from the two Yeovil sheds? Or would express locos and mainline stock have been drafted in for the job?

Mainline locos and coaches would be brought in from Bristol and further afield; Yeovil had nothing bigger than 45XX (I think) and few spare coaches. If the SR supplied a train it would probably come from Exeter. As it took place in February on a Region that had plenty of summer holiday traffic, there would be spare coaches dotted. There should also be a few spare locos on Saturday, but if necessary the odd freight could be cancelled.

The traditional starting point for 'MATCH' buses to Maine Road (and Old Trafford) was in Aytoun Street, so close to London Rd / Mayfield.

But would visiting supporters be separated from home ones? I know that it wasn’t the 1970s, but would there have been some attempt to avoid barneys between opposing groups?

 

[6Gman]

But would visiting supporters be separated from home ones? I know that it wasn’t the 1970s, but would there have been some attempt to avoid barneys between opposing groups?

Almost certainly not an issue.

I recall (reading about) a Burnley* v Portsmouth cup tie in the 1950s; when the overnight trains arrived Burnley fans had put up trestle tables on the platform with tea urns and breakfast!



* I think it was Burnley; might have been Blackburn but definitely that area.

Thanks for this, I had a feeling the answer wouldn't be straightforward......

It does raise another thought: how would a project like this have been resourced? Would it have been from whatever odd locos and coaches were available locally spare from the two Yeovil sheds? Or would express locos and mainline stock have been drafted in for the job?

Having planned such trains in the past (not in 1949!) I would expect:

If they were from Pen Mill, empty stock from Weymouth and/or Bristol with Weymouth, Bath Road, Phillips Marsh or Westbury locos. If they went via the North & West I'd expect them to be re-engined to LM locos at Shrewsbury. From Yeovil Junction ECS from Exeter or Salisbury; moguls (possibly West Country pacifics) to Templecombe or Bath, then Bath/Bristol Class 5s to Birmingham area or possibly through to Manchester.

Or any unbalanced loco that might be available!

Would make an interesting job for the diagrammers! Sort of work I really enjoyed.

 

[Taunton]

The way it was done then, if the Western Region organised it then they would want as much mileage on their region as possible, so via Severn Tunnel and Shrewsbury was the way. My guess for the provisional services to Bradford would be Didcot West Curve, and onto the LNER at Banbury, cutting out the London Midland altogether.

 

[The exile]

About a two mile walk in the rain from Manchester Mayfield station to the Maine Road ground, although a fair chance that shuttle buses would have been laid on.

A two mile walk would have been considered nothing by most people, rain or no rain.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A two mile walk would have been considered nothing by most people, rain or no rain.

And when they arrived, in due course, at the Maine Road ground, only half of the stadium (the main stand and Platt Lane End) would then have been under any cover. The Kippax Street banking and North End were both completely uncovered in 1949. Different times indeed.

 

[paul1609]

Almost certainly not an issue.

I recall (reading about) a Burnley* v Portsmouth cup tie in the 1950s; when the overnight trains arrived Burnley fans had put up trestle tables on the platform with tea urns and breakfast!



* I think it was Burnley; might have been Blackburn but definitely that area.

It was the replay from this match, Pompey drew with Burnley on the Saturday so had to replay on the Tuesday Afternoon there being no floodlights then:

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One aspect of the rail journey (from Yeovil up to Manchester and back) which seemed utterly bizarre was the following Monday's account in the "Daily Herald" newspaper of a bullet smashing through one of the excursion trains' windows on its way back to Somerset.

Was taking pot shots at a random passing train, on a dark night, common in the years immediately after WW2?

 

[A.Macallan]

Mainline locos and coaches would be brought in from Bristol and further afield; Yeovil had nothing bigger than 45XX (I think) and few spare coaches. If the SR supplied a train it would probably come from Exeter. As it took place in February on a Region that had plenty of summer holiday traffic, there would be spare coaches dotted. There should also be a few spare locos on Saturday, but if necessary the odd freight could be cancelled.



But would visiting supporters be separated from home ones? I know that it wasn’t the 1970s, but would there have been some attempt to avoid barneys between opposing groups?

Not necessary back in the day, most grounds only had one stand (seating area) the rest being terraced, & home and away fans changed ends at half-time to be behind their teams attacking goal…passing one another on the way round !

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not necessary back in the day, most grounds only had one stand (seating area) the rest being terraced, & home and away fans changed ends at half-time to be behind their teams attacking goal…passing one another on the way round !

Doubt changing ends would have been possible or even practicable at Maine Road that particular day (well over 81,000 on the ground).

 

[randyrippley]

Doubt changing ends would have been possible or even practicable at Maine Road that particular day (well over 81,000 on the ground).

My father was there and he said the ground was packed so tight that many children were passed overhead person-to-person to get them safe in front of the terraces

 

[6Gman]

A two mile walk would have been considered nothing by most people, rain or no rain.

Also worth noting the trains ran overnight, presumably arriving around 9-10am (to avoid the rush hour) so plenty of time before the match. (Indeed the press reports refer to Yeovil folk singing and dancing in the streets of the city centre!)

I suspect there would have been more urgency after the match to get them away quickly for a sensible arrival back home. 6.30pm from Manchester would have ben around 1.30am back in Yeovil? Long day, but better than getting back at 3 or 4 in the morning!

Bear in mind also would there have been extra time if all square at 90 minutes, or would they go straight to a replay? (Didn't matter in this case as it was a rather one-sided outcome. But when we scheduled footexes for cup ties we often had Q paths in the event of extra time.)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Bear in mind also would there have been extra time if all square at 90 minutes, or would they go straight to a replay? (Didn't matter in this case as it was a rather one-sided outcome. But when we scheduled footexes for cup ties we often had Q paths in the event of extra time.)

Extra time would have been played if needed (it wasn't as United won 8-0 and were four up by half time). Kick-off time was 2.30 p.m. so extra time was just about do-able before it went dark, this in the days before floodlights.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

EDIT: Correction. It probably wouldn’t have gone via Mouldsworth and Knutsford as the facing connection at Mickle Trafford from Chester General wasn’t put in until 1969.

Trains that way have been known to route onto the CLC via Wrexham General, Dee Marsh Jn and the Chester Northgate avoider to Mouldsworth and on to Manchester Central.
But more likely to go up to Crewe and London Road after Shrewsbury.

 

[Taunton]

Trains that way have been known to route onto the CLC via Wrexham General, Dee Marsh Jn and the Chester Northgate avoider to Mouldsworth and on to Manchester Central.
But more likely to go up to Crewe and London Road after Shrewsbury.

Was there a direct link north of Wrexham General? My youthful recollection was that although the two lines run closely parallel, connection hitherto was only through exchange sidings.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But more likely to go up to Crewe and London Road after Shrewsbury.

At least one of the Yeovil supporter special trains is known to have to used Manchester Mayfield station.