Yorkshire Hub

[HowardGWR]

I keep pressing Leeds City Council and West Yorkshire Metro to reinstate 2 miles of the Cross Gates-Wetherby line for a turnback facility instead of Micklefield. 7,000 houses are being built either side of the trackbed in the Scholes area and a rail connection here would be invaluable as most buyers would work in the Leeds or even Bradford areas. There would be room for park and ride adjacent to the A64 also instead of Micklefield but I just get stonewalled.

Would it not be useful to get the local councillors to do that for you, may I suggest? Officials don't listen to members of the public and only pay lip service to councillors, but at least the latter can raise a debate in their chambers.

 

[glbotu]

How would you go about electrifying Sunderland given that it already has Metro 1500 volt DC OHLE ?

Upgrade the Metro to take 25kV instead. It's a "long-term aspiration" from Nexus anyway, given the increasingly unreliable metrocars (which are, under the bonnet, pretty much identical to their delivered state in 1983), is something they might look to do anyway when renewing the trains.

 

[edwin_m]

Upgrade the Metro to take 25kV instead. It's a "long-term aspiration" from Nexus anyway, given the increasingly unreliable metrocars (which are, under the bonnet, pretty much identical to their delivered state in 1983), is something they might look to do anyway when renewing the trains.

Given that we're talking about 2032 or so, it's unlikely the existing fleet will still be around.

Surely they're older than 1983 though, or at least the oldest production ones are? When I moved there in 1981 the Metro was running north of Haymarket.

 

[Altnabreac]

How would you go about electrifying Sunderland given that it already has Metro 1500 volt DC OHLE ?

Dual voltage Metro stock operating on 25KV Overhead south and east of Gateshead.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Dual voltage Metro stock operating on 25KV Overhead south and east of Gateshead.

No seriously

 

[edwin_m]

No seriously

Yes really. Not that much different from the tram-trains operating on the Continent and soon to be operating in Sheffield.

 

[NotATrainspott]

No seriously

25kV AC capability would be trivial to include in the specification for the replacement Metro rolling stock. The new tram-trains for Sheffield will all have their 25kV AC transformer fitted from the factory even if most of them aren't ever going to be needed for running beyond the existing 750V DC network. The transformer need only be large enough for the small amount of power that the Metro trains actually need. Being only ~30m long and limited to 80km/h we're talking about a fraction of the size of the transformer needed for even the smallest BR EMU.

 

[muddythefish]

It looks like Leeds is going to get an integrated station:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/general-news/revealed-leeds-city-centre-set-for-colossal-revamp-to-accommodate-hs2-1-7597705

Full announcement later today.

Finally, finally a part of the HS2 scheme that actually makes sense. Well done to the Leeds authorities for sticking to their guns showing how HS2 should be designed.

Can we now have similar joined-up thinking for Sheffield, Nottingham/Derby, Manchester, Birmingham and London ?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Finally, finally a part of the HS2 scheme that actually makes sense. Well done to the Leeds authorities for sticking to their guns showing how HS2 should be designed.

Can we now have similar joined-up thinking for Sheffield, Nottingham/Derby, Manchester, Birmingham and London ?

What's wrong with Manchester and London parts? There using existing stations like Leeds already in the plans.

 

[muddythefish]

What's wrong with Manchester and London parts? There using existing stations like Leeds already in the plans.

Doesn't join up with HS1. The Euston - Cross scheme makes much more sense.

Last time I looked Manchester is a terminus when it should be a through station heading north and/or connecting into HS3.

 

[snowball]

Last time I looked Manchester is a terminus when it should be a through station heading north and/or connecting into HS3.

Bit difficult for it to connect with HS3 when nobody yet knows where that will be.

 

[Pinza-C55]

25kV AC capability would be trivial to include in the specification for the replacement Metro rolling stock. The new tram-trains for Sheffield will all have their 25kV AC transformer fitted from the factory even if most of them aren't ever going to be needed for running beyond the existing 750V DC network. The transformer need only be large enough for the small amount of power that the Metro trains actually need. Being only ~30m long and limited to 80km/h we're talking about a fraction of the size of the transformer needed for even the smallest BR EMU.

Not an expert like but I thought the insulators and so on for 1500 DC required changing for 25 KV along with other major mods to the OHLE ?
The Metro has no street running.

 

[Nym]

The DC kit is also approaching life expired, so it might be the time to move to AC?

 

[HowardGWR]

The DC kit is also approaching life expired, so it might be the time to move to AC?

I may be from Daan Saath but is Sunderland in Yorkshire then? We should have been told.

 

[Altnabreac]

I may be from Daan Saath but is Sunderland in Yorkshire then? We should have been told.

People in Sunderland don't support Newcastle United.

Ergo they might be smoggies.

Smoggies are from Yorkshire.

Therefore Sunderland is in Yorkshire.

 

[Nym]

I may be from Daan Saath but is Sunderland in Yorkshire then? We should have been told.

No chance are them from up'thar in t' Sunderland in' Yorkshire...

 

[Pinza-C55]

I may be from Daan Saath but is Sunderland in Yorkshire then? We should have been told.

Distances on the Northallerton - Stockton - Sunderland - Newcastle line are measured from Leeds.

 

[steevp]

Distances on the Northallerton - Stockton - Sunderland - Newcastle line are measured from Leeds.

So for someone else from down south, that clinches it then

 

[NotATrainspott]

Not an expert like but I thought the insulators and so on for 1500 DC required changing for 25 KV along with other major mods to the OHLE ?
The Metro has no street running.

Very possibly, but it would only be the Network Rail tracks which would be converted to 25kV AC OHLE. For NR's purposes these sections aren't electrified so it's not the end of the world if you have to make major modifications. The Sheffield tram-train test will use 25kV-rated OHLE for 750V DC until the surrounding rail network is electrified. It follows that it should be possible to upgrade the Metro OHLE on NR rails so that it would sustain 25kV bit-by-bit before finally increasing the voltage once everything else is done.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

People in Sunderland don't support Newcastle United.
Ergo they might be smoggies.
Smoggies are from Yorkshire.
Therefore Sunderland is in Yorkshire.

Sunderland is inhabited by Makems not Smoggies.
And Yorkshire doesn't exist in any legal or official way.

On an unrelated note:
Would it be possible to have a connection between Meadowhall HS2 and lines to Doncaster? That could be good for Hull and as a diversion towards York.
It's great having the connections at Leeds, so why not Sheffield?

 

[edwin_m]

Would it be possible to have a connection between Meadowhall HS2 and lines to Doncaster? That could be good for Hull and as a diversion towards York.
It's great having the connections at Leeds, so why not Sheffield?

HS2 crosses the Don Valley at Meadowhall alongside the M1 Tinsley Viaduct, with the platforms partly on the viaduct. Any curve towards Doncaster would have to come off HS2 south of the viaduct. This would require yet another viaduct curving across the valley, would miss the platforms and would have to cross the M1 somehow.

Hull could be reached by the connection near Leeds that is discussed upthread. HS2 is intended to operate without the need for diversions, with overnight closures and the possibility of single line running at the start and end of the day.

 

[tbtc]

I imagine the Sheffield station would be best in the centre. Imagine if the Manchester one was to be in Trafford Centre as it's slightly closer to Wigan... it wouldn't make sense to miss out on the huge economic benefit for the city centre just to save a few minutes for people going further afield, at the expense of the majority going to the city. So Meadowhall is not ideal in my mind, despite the perfect interchange which is great, but too many Sheffield travellers would be put of due to changes needed and just use the current train, especially for place like Nottingham.

Easy to say that there should be a station closer to the centre of Sheffield, but where?

Meadowhall has

• An existing four platform train station with direct services to every other South Yorkshire station (okay, the direct service to Dore is just one a day IIRC) and beyond (services towards Hull/ Scarborough/ Nottingham/ Leeds/ Manchester/ Doncaster/ Cleethorpes)
• Around ten trains an hour into Midland station, taking around five minutes (presumably by the 2030s we'll see EMUs and maybe some additional services)
• An existing two platform tram station with direct services to parts of Sheffield
• An existing fourteen stance bus/coach station with direct services to a lot of Sheffield/ South Yorkshire/ beyond (First, Stagecoach, National Express, Megabus etc)
• Convenient for the Motorway
• Space for hundreds of car park spaces
• A fair number of people working nearby (Meadowhall is going to be more of an employment hub in future)

...plus it’s on the direct route from Toton to Leeds. Any other Sheffield location would have to be either:

a) A spur for terminating services only – which may be just one service an hour, may be quite slow between the main HS2 line and the Sheffield station
b) Diverting the Toton – Leeds line through central Sheffield, slowing down the longer distance passengers by dealing with the hills/ curves

...neither is preferable.

There’s no space at Sheffield Midland for HS2 (and no realistic space to build a double decker facility, given the tunnels).

Victoria would effectively be an “out of town” station, with no space for any transport interchange, no local trains, no trams, up on a viaduct beyond the Ring Road. If you built it, you’d have to spend hundreds of millions on other local infrastructure too, to link it to the rest of Sheffield/ and the “city region”. Because, in this brave new world of devolution, it’s not just about Sheffield spending money on itself – we’ve got to have an option that keeps the rest of the “city region” fairly sweet to. Which probably means somewhere with good links to Rotherham/ Barnsley/ Chesterfield etc. Somewhere like Meadowhall?

Seriously, I’d be interested in knowing what your alternative is. It’d be nice if Sheffield had a station as convenient for the central shopping/ business districts as Leeds does. But, Midland is tucked away at the bottom of the valley (literally – the station is built above the River Sheaf – it is the lowest point) with no room for expansion.

Victoria is the wrong side of town for the money/ Universities (they are generally in the south west/ west) – you could get an existing train from Meadowhall to Midland today faster than any tram/ train from Victoria to Midland (once you’ve reversed it near Nunnery Square). Where else is there?

Build it at Meadowhall (where it’ll get most long distance services stopping), and spend any spare money on four tracking as much of line from Dore to Swinton as possible.

Whilst people accept longer walks at airports, you also have to remember that people have much longer at said buildings to make connections (with the exception of those people who always leave getting to the airport until the last minute of course!). In reality the closest any passenger would be arriving at the proposed New Line station would be at least 400m from the nearest platform at Leeds City. So someone unfortunate enough to be at the very back would have 800m to go to just to get to platform 16, and if their connecting service is on 1 then it's a very long walk. OK if you have 20+ minutes to make the connection, but if you are delayed and have only 10 minutes or less to get across for a late evening connection (for example), then those 400 metres less will be gratefully received.

So is it worth the extra cost, yes I believe so. Let's face it, the cost of the project is huge so you may as well get it right if at all possible.

I take your point – I just think that there’s a trade off to be had in terms of whether a couple of hundred metres on a travellator is enough of an inconvenience to warrant millions of pounds in infrastructure costs.

If we are talking Civic Pride, then of course West Yorkshire people will want the best option for West Yorkshire, as close as possible to the existing platforms. But it’s going to be an operationally separate station (regardless of how close the buffer stops are to the current platforms), so I think there’s a question to be asked about how many millions of pounds you’d pay to avoid a travellator from somewhere near the ASDA HQ – given that we aren’t short of other things we could be investing that money in!

 

[Altnabreac]

Sunderland is inhabited by Makems not Smoggies.
And Yorkshire doesn't exist in any legal or official way.

You obviously don't have jokes in Grimsby...

The joke being that as far as any true Geordie (like myself) is concerned there is little difference between Mackems and Smoggies - both being beyond the Pale (or Wear in this case).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On an unrelated note:
Would it be possible to have a connection between Meadowhall HS2 and lines to Doncaster? That could be good for Hull and as a diversion towards York.
It's great having the connections at Leeds, so why not Sheffield?

HS2 crosses the Don Valley at Meadowhall alongside the M1 Tinsley Viaduct, with the platforms partly on the viaduct. Any curve towards Doncaster would have to come off HS2 south of the viaduct. This would require yet another viaduct curving across the valley, would miss the platforms and would have to cross the M1 somehow.

Hull could be reached by the connection near Leeds that is discussed upthread. HS2 is intended to operate without the need for diversions, with overnight closures and the possibility of single line running at the start and end of the day.

The much simpler infrastructure solution is for a spur heading north from HS2 around the Killamarsh area, south of Meadowhall HS2 station.

This would enable a number of service options including:
Hull - Doncaster - Rotherham (Masborough) - HS2 classic compatibles.
Leeds - Wakefield - Rotherham (Masborough) - HS2 classic compatibles.
Sheffield (Midland) - HS2 classic compatibles.
HS3 - Sheffield Victoria - HS2 - Toton - Leicester classic compatibles.

Now not all of those are necessarily going to stack up financially but a chord in that area would give you a lot of flexibility and an occasional classic compatible services to Sheffield Midland might well make up for the main station being out of town at Meadowhall.

HS2 is never going to suggest this option because they want to avoid at all costs getting caught up in funding infrastructure enhancements / electrification on the existing network.

But if Sheffield City Region promoted it as part of the Northern Hub and promoted electrification between Sheffield, Doncaster and Moorthorpe (following on from MML) then it would be a good start.

It may be at this stage in planning all that can be acquired from HS2 Ltd is passive provision for some sort of chord in this area but that would still be worth asking for.

 

[HowardGWR]

The much simpler infrastructure solution is for a spur heading north from HS2 around the Killamarsh area, south of Meadowhall HS2 station.

This would enable a number of service options including:
Hull - Doncaster - Rotherham (Masborough) - HS2 classic compatibles.
Leeds - Wakefield - Rotherham (Masborough) - HS2 classic compatibles.
Sheffield (Midland) - HS2 classic compatibles.
HS3 - Sheffield Victoria - HS2 - Toton - Leicester classic compatibles.

Agree with all that. Funny thing, despite all the pooh-poohing, it seems we keep coming back to reinstating the Great Central Railway (seee highlighted stretch). If the dogleg to Brum gets eventually too congested, we only need a suggestion for an HS4 chord from, ooh, say, Brackley to Leicester and onto south of Toton, and history will have been repeated. Sir Edward Watkin's eyes are rolling.:roll:

 

[edwin_m]

Agree with all that. Funny thing, despite all the pooh-poohing, it seems we keep coming back to reinstating the Great Central Railway (seee highlighted stretch). If the dogleg to Brum gets eventually too congested, we only need a suggestion for an HS4 chord from, ooh, say, Brackley to Leicester and onto south of Toton, and history will have been repeated. Sir Edward Watkin's eyes are rolling.:roll:

Nice thought but I suspect not. Such a chord would only feed more trains into the busiest bit of HS2 into London, so it would benefit Leicester and save a few minutes to the north-east but wouldn't increase HS capacity at all. If it gets full out of London then beyond better signalling and double deck trains it's a question of building a new route starting in London itself. This could well be more easterly and pick up the existing route somewhere near Toton but the London terminus would be a big question mark. Olympic Park watch out!

 

[backontrack]

Yorkshire is that big bit from Retford to Durham, and from Hull and Hartlepool to Lancaster and Oldham.

 

[edwin_m]

Yorkshire is that big bit from Retford to Durham, and from Hull and Hartlepool to Lancaster and Oldham.

Are you trying to re-start the Wars of the Roses?

 

[matacaster]

HS2 crosses the Don Valley at Meadowhall alongside the M1 Tinsley Viaduct, with the platforms partly on the viaduct. Any curve towards Doncaster would have to come off HS2 south of the viaduct. This would require yet another viaduct curving across the valley, would miss the platforms and would have to cross the M1 somehow.

Hull could be reached by the connection near Leeds that is discussed upthread. HS2 is intended to operate without the need for diversions, with overnight closures and the possibility of single line running at the start and end of the day.

Why on earth would anyone want to GO to Hull?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Easy to say that there should be a station closer to the centre of Sheffield, but where?

Meadowhall has

• An existing four platform train station with direct services to every other South Yorkshire station (okay, the direct service to Dore is just one a day IIRC) and beyond (services towards Hull/ Scarborough/ Nottingham/ Leeds/ Manchester/ Doncaster/ Cleethorpes)
• Around ten trains an hour into Midland station, taking around five minutes (presumably by the 2030s we'll see EMUs and maybe some additional services)
• An existing two platform tram station with direct services to parts of Sheffield
• An existing fourteen stance bus/coach station with direct services to a lot of Sheffield/ South Yorkshire/ beyond (First, Stagecoach, National Express, Megabus etc)
• Convenient for the Motorway
• Space for hundreds of car park spaces
• A fair number of people working nearby (Meadowhall is going to be more of an employment hub in future)

...plus it’s on the direct route from Toton to Leeds. Any other Sheffield location would have to be either:

a) A spur for terminating services only – which may be just one service an hour, may be quite slow between the main HS2 line and the Sheffield station
b) Diverting the Toton – Leeds line through central Sheffield, slowing down the longer distance passengers by dealing with the hills/ curves

...neither is preferable.

There’s no space at Sheffield Midland for HS2 (and no realistic space to build a double decker facility, given the tunnels).

Victoria would effectively be an “out of town” station, with no space for any transport interchange, no local trains, no trams, up on a viaduct beyond the Ring Road. If you built it, you’d have to spend hundreds of millions on other local infrastructure too, to link it to the rest of Sheffield/ and the “city region”. Because, in this brave new world of devolution, it’s not just about Sheffield spending money on itself – we’ve got to have an option that keeps the rest of the “city region” fairly sweet to. Which probably means somewhere with good links to Rotherham/ Barnsley/ Chesterfield etc. Somewhere like Meadowhall?

Seriously, I’d be interested in knowing what your alternative is. It’d be nice if Sheffield had a station as convenient for the central shopping/ business districts as Leeds does. But, Midland is tucked away at the bottom of the valley (literally – the station is built above the River Sheaf – it is the lowest point) with no room for expansion.

Victoria is the wrong side of town for the money/ Universities (they are generally in the south west/ west) – you could get an existing train from Meadowhall to Midland today faster than any tram/ train from Victoria to Midland (once you’ve reversed it near Nunnery Square). Where else is there?

Build it at Meadowhall (where it’ll get most long distance services stopping), and spend any spare money on four tracking as much of line from Dore to Swinton as possible.



I take your point – I just think that there’s a trade off to be had in terms of whether a couple of hundred metres on a travellator is enough of an inconvenience to warrant millions of pounds in infrastructure costs.

If we are talking Civic Pride, then of course West Yorkshire people will want the best option for West Yorkshire, as close as possible to the existing platforms. But it’s going to be an operationally separate station (regardless of how close the buffer stops are to the current platforms), so I think there’s a question to be asked about how many millions of pounds you’d pay to avoid a travellator from somewhere near the ASDA HQ – given that we aren’t short of other things we could be investing that money in!

Bring back rail carriage of small animals!

Ferrets, Kestrels and racing pigeons would be more than enough to keep locals sweet.

 

[HowardGWR]

Nice thought but I suspect not. Such a chord would only feed more trains into the busiest bit of HS2 into London, so it would benefit Leicester and save a few minutes to the north-east but wouldn't increase HS capacity at all. If it gets full out of London then beyond better signalling and double deck trains it's a question of building a new route starting in London itself. This could well be more easterly and pick up the existing route somewhere near Toton but the London terminus would be a big question mark. Olympic Park watch out!

Just 4 track Brackley to Euston!
It was written TIC of course, but it is noticeable that so much of the GCR trajectory is being used, and Sir Edward's ghost will have noted that there will still be no train through from Manchester to Paris.

 

[MarkRedon]

Most people travelling from Manchester to Paris would think that the plane is a better alternative. However, as someone who frequently and happily travels between north-west France and Hull, I prefer the train throughout. It is an 18 hour journey by car and ferry, and can be done in nine by train. Flights from Humberside and Leeds Bradford airports require a change of aircraft in Amsterdam or in Paris and usually work out rather expensive. The best alternative to the train throughout is a flight from Nantes to Manchester with connecting trains at either end of the journey. At best you save two hours by comparison with taking the train throughout. Because of flight timings, an overnight stay is often essential. There are many journeys of this kind within Europe where, if people thought more carefully, they would find the train to be a better alternative.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go and feed the whippets. The cats killed the last pigeon yesterday.